RFID Tagging anti-theft or is there another reason?

They are used in Library books in the uk... keeps track of them with minimal effort.

You remember 'books' ?

But seriously the library service does loads of computer stuff too these days!

"So then if greed ( couched in intellectual property rights protection terms)" Hmmm, sounds as though you want every artist to just give you their hard work and not profit from it. Why do you refer to intellectual property rights as "greed"? Would you refer to real estate property rights or any other property rights as "greed" also?

The whole tone of your missive is a diatrube against attempts to prevent theft. You exult in the MPAA's failure to prevent theft. You refer to property rights as greed yet theft is greed at its very core.

Artist struggle to get their efforts known hoping they may earn something from the process. Businesses are built on the principle of profit. What do you find troublesome about methods for protecting the artist and making a profit?

If there are commercial items in your personal music and film collection were not purchased purchased by you then you are a thief. There is no "free lunch" as the saying goes. Artists and businesses are robbed of a legitimate right every time someone downloads a copyrighted product without paying for it. "Shoplifting" with a computer is stealing.

I applaud any efforts to prevent thievery of intellectual property because I want artists, authors, and others to continue to pour forth their talents which make life more enjoyable. Stealing their works and participating in the destruction of their livelyhoods will only serve to deny their beauty and talent to us all.

You do actually get me wrong, I am a great champion of intellectual property rights, with one proviso and that is that they are not abused, because abuse is as much a degree of theft as theft itself.

The record companies have for years produced sub-standard material and sold it at inflated prices which bear no relation to the actual cost or what other businesses would deem to be a reasonable profit, what I do take exception to also is when markets are deliberately partitioned, if I buy a video in America I expect in this global age to be able to play it in Europe or anywhere else in the world and what has been done is just an attempt to extort even more money from their loyal customers.

What I do find highly amusing is when the whole thing turns round and bites them in the rear their only response is to threaten legal action......that is really going to engender loyalty . Instead of marketing their products ( with plenty of profit margin) at prices that make it utterly unworthwhile to counterfeit their greed has ended up costing them money and I have no sympathy whatsoever, furthermore if I owned a record on Vinyl in the days before CDs I would record a cassette for the car rather than buying one which had been poorly copied at high speed and contained half the information needed to liten to the full dynamic range and cost as much as the record itself, I had already paid for the right to listen to it whether I did so on disc or on tape is really immaterial.

Then we had the wonderful spectacle of the Parents Music Resource Centre, the brainchild of one Tipper Gore, who wanted to censor recordings and rate them like films wity certificates for each (rather arbirtary) class ( no doubt feeling they were part of the moral majority, which incidentally was and is neither moral, nor thankfully in the majority). They held congretional hearings and heard from many artists including one Frank Zappa who gave them plenty to think about, they obviously did not like what they heard and so then sought to rely on the likes of Donny Osmond and John Denver whom they thought would obviously be sympathetic to the cause, what they didn't bargain for was that they would say they did not want such censorship as if records were X rated then those would be the only ones that kids would find it cool to buy and they did not want to have to make X rated material just to earn a living, and so the whole thing came to a grinding and utterly ignominious halt. The reason for mentioning this unhappy little episode is that the record companies were all for the idea why? because they offered to place a $1 tax on each and every blank cassette (whether or not it was to be used to record music from a record or other protected source) to make up for the money which the record companies had bleated fro years they were losing. Instead of making the product better and cheaper they continued to rip everyone off until the digital age quietly tured the tide.

I find it highly amusing therefore when these companies who have ripped off the general public for years now spend many millions to try to prevent unauthorised copying, when in reality this is a futile attempt to stop the floodgates opening, which had been caused by their greed in the first place.

Most people make the odd copy maybe even one or two for friends and this has gone on since it was possible to make tape recordings, what I deplore is when it is turned into a wholesale business, but through their utter greed the film industry and the music business now have to face the consequences of their previous greed and will henceforth be able to do little or nothing to prevent people saying who needs to pay for a record when I can download it from the internet? as soon as one hole is plugged, another one opens and so it goes.

You have to ask yourself what is greed and possibly whether it is right or wrong for the greedy to have their comeuppance, I think they need to learn a little humility and humanity, then and only then will they ever engender the sympathy of the computer literate who seek to give them the well-deserved finger.

You seem obsessed with branding profit making ventures as rip offs. Are you aware of the profit margins of the drug, nutritional supplement, cosmetic and jewelry companies to name a few which exceed by thousandsfold their manufacturing costs? Where is you diatribe against them?

Record companies have never yielded such excellent gains. Yet because they produce something you desire, and do not wish to pay for, you catergorize their hard work, talent, drive, ambition and skills as rip offs. In your astonishing oxymoron, "I am a great champion of intellectual property rights with one proviso and that is that they are not abused", you set youself up as judge and jury to determine who you think is an abuser of property rights so that you can justifiably (in you own mind) steal from them.

It is the same thinking as the Nazi's and any other group or individuals then or today who want to sieze what does not belong to them. Brand the owners as criminals, undesireables, or rip offs and then steal from them because now it is "justifiable".

Your assessment of the record companies as producing sub standard material is another example of your lack of knowledge as to of who produced the standards in the first place. The record companies developed the standards and every recording is produced to meet those standards. I challenge you to identify even one commercially available recording of any type (vinyl, tape, CD) which does not meet RIAA or international standards.

Again, you invent a feeble untruth to justify your stealing of intellectual property to make a tape to use in your car and to make "the odd copy maybe one or two for friends" thereby stealing from the artists and the record companys their legal compensation.

Your assessment of the Tipper Gore led Parents Resource Center is wrong because her efforts and others caused the lyrics of songs to be published and enclosed with the medium. For the first time parents could actually read and understand the mumbled and often screamed content of what their children were listening to without having to listen to it multiple times. The record companies objected to this citing their first ammendment rights as being violated. But it did cause a general clean up of the lyrics until rap began the whole process al over again.

That you admit you find it "highly amusing" record companies are being forced to spend millions in an attempt to stem the tide of thievery is a sad testament to the lack of morals in you and your generation. Thievery is thievery no matter how many attempts you make at justifying your actions. You are a thief and a liar. You steal intellectual property while at the same time you claim to "champion" intellectual property rights. Sadly, you are a true product of Generation X .

I also abhor the abuse of intellectual property rights by drug companies, fortunately I live in a country where their impact is not felt by those who need their products because we have a health service that allows us to benefit from subsidised medicines, however where whole continents are suffering from diseases such as HIV Aids, Malaria and the like and the drug companies are loath to provide medicines at a cost that could truly benefit those who have the greatest need whether or not they are wonderful inventions, are these companies not stealing something far more important, namely the right to life?

There is far more choice when it comes to nutritional supplements, most of them are of unproven efficacy and there is much more of an ability to take or leave what is on offer, likewise in my country women tend to use far less in the way of cosmetics, looking like some freak of nature is far less fashionable, a more natural look being preferred, also there is far more in the way of choice, you don't always have to have the "designer" names, in many cases consumer organisation reports show that cheaper brands are often better, again there is a far greater ability to chose.

I don't know about you but I tend to wear little other than a watch in terms of jewellery, one absolutely brilliant watch that lasted for over 4 years on one battery and is superbly designed came from India where I purchased it for less than $20.

A friend who recently purchased a well-known branded watch, allegedly the same as U.S. Astronauts took with them on lunar expeditions, found to his eternal chagrin that it gains about 10 minutes a day whereas my watch is accurate to within a few seconds a month. CHOICE ! am I making my point yet?

If you hear a song on the radio and you want to hear it again, apart from listening to the same station in the hope that you will hear it again your only choice is to buy the record, tape, Minidisc, CD DVD or whatever, sometimes the only song by a particular artist worth listening to is on an album, what if all his other product is tripe and fit only for the refuse bin? why should anyone be forced to pay for detritus they neither like or want..........NO CHOICE!.......is the light beginning to dawn yet?

With all rights come responsibilities and if rights are abused this world has a way of redressing the balance, sometimes sooner, sometimes later. For those reasons and not for reasons of condoning theft, (which if that is all you can see from my comments, you have missed the point entirely) I find it particularly amusing to watch the RECORD COMPANIES ( they are the ones who pay a disproportionately small royalty to the creators of the music) and the FILM COMPANIES ( often likewise) BOTH OF WHOM CHARGE TOO MUCH FOR THEIR PRODUCT, scrabbling around like misers who think they have dropped a penny in the gutter when their little scheme falls apart.

The point is had they not ripped people off they would not create the climate in which (as they see it) they are ripped off themselves.

I don't only blame those industries,and I have nothing but the greatest admiration for those who have made something out of nothing through their own endeavours, without such people we would not be having this exchange via email.

Had the car companies not made vehicles with built-in obsolescence and tried to charge too much for spares, there would be no need for specialist exhaust fitting services or brake or tyre services, we would buy them from the manufacturer or main dealers, the point is we have the choice as to whether we allow them to make too much in the way of profit because parts can be sourced elsewhere and market forces prevail.

What is the differing codes on DVDs other than a gross and completely unsubtle attempt to partition the market. If I buy a television in America because it works on a rather i outdated system, NTSC, it will not work in Europe, likewise if I buy a television in France (SECAM) it will not work in England (PAL) these systems were each developed independently, not to partiotion the market but purely because they are the systems used in each country. DVDs are different, why, if I buy a DVD in America, for my sole use, should I not be able to enjoy it in England or Switzerland or Croatia, I can if it is a CD or a tape or a Minidisc or a Vinyl record, purely and simply and abuse to extort more money, the market is not standing for it and these companies are having to learn a little humility the hard way, where it hurts them most, all I am saying is that now they get to see how it feels for a change. Even the biggest electronics manufacturers are making "multi-region" machines. They have intellectual property to protect but they are subject to market forces.

I don't condone theft, but I don't condone extortion either, life is not simply black and white there are grey (English spelling) areas and this area is greyer than most, one needs to appreciate a) that there are at least two sides to most arguments, and the favoured bleat of the rip-off artists is wearing a little thin despite their desperation to endeavour to find, let alone occupy some moral high ground; and b) that what goes around comes around.

Those who make the most noise in this area seem to be the ones who have the scantest regard to their responsibilities, a bit like the bully in the school playground finally getting his just desserts........and crying all the way to the Teacher, in order to report the fact that he has just been played rather more successfully at his own game and that he isn't the bigshot, who could get away with whatever he pleased, that he thought he was.

Hold your horses for a moment guys.

Now both of you have presented an excellent case and have danced around a hot pot which is heated by the western society we live or survive in. Greed is a given fact in any display of human competition. A bit like the laws of physics just more subtle and imponderable. I mean, you could replace any of your complaint's with every thing that is going on around us. Unless you are suggesting an all out revolution nothing will change. I do not have to mention tens or hundreds of industries which are all guilty of what you are talking about. It is really like a cancer that has befallen most of us.

Just have a look at the patent Law and it's implementation in general. Who gives a 'whats the name' about mass produced artists any way. I would always prefer a life presentation, of what ever art form, instead of wasting my time with repeated versions of the same of the same old thing over and over again.

Now back to the patent law and the ruthlessness which it displays. Don't feel sorry about some artists ( I am a dedicated artist myself) but feel compassion for people who invent things, spending their life savings on some idea only to be ripped off by so many "good meaning people" like patent attorneys and their cohorts (this was not tongue in cheek). There is a hole industry out there that leads good willing inventors into ruin ( I am not one of them). These are the people that need protection not the big boys on both side of the equation as represented by you two.

I have a friend who is obsessed with copying music for "free" but any time we get together he only plays the same songs, his favorites. If he would start today to listen to all the songs he has, he could not listen to all of them in his life time. He is only in his mid twenties and I think it is more of a compulsive disorder than theft. He never listens to the crap and is more after the bragging rights than any thing else. I would not call his tendencies criminal but only a childish reaction to what is on offer and how to get it for free. Chase the guys that instigate it all not each other. By dividing you they have conquered you. You are on the same side and just want to fight about some thing that will go on like the laws of physics, for ever. Go out and see and pay for a life gig. Stuff the entertainment multiplications industry. Buy the band a bloody beer if you liked it. Stop your whining. All will be good. Ky.

The one thing to be said about live music is that it is immediate and sometimes you can actually see quite how bad a band or musician actually is, conversely it is also an opportunity to see real virtuosity and there is no doubt as to the pleasure that can be derived from that.

There are however thousands of really talented musicians out there who do not get the recognition they deserve because record company execs are only interested in jumping on the next bandwagon e.g. boybands with too much makeup and fancy hairstyles, but generally very thin on real talent, which much like the execs themselves brings the argument full circle. If they had the right people running these businesses, properly in tune with their customer base, rather than dictating to a bunch of 3 year olds that this is the best thing since sliced bread ( oh and by the way they wear very nice designer trainers) and making their parent pay through the nose for what, will at some time (even by said 3 year olds in due course) prove to be utter garbage available at a store near you if you are prepared to pay the price. ............alternatively......., there would be little piracy and a lot more enjoyment.

Thievery by computerized shoplifters have reduced a once viable industry to a handfull of remaining companies. "Free" downloads have caused the destruction of 9 major lables and quite possibly will soon drive the remaining out of business.

What was once a healthy business has become decimated by computerized thievery. Thousands of musicians, producers, writers and other talented people will never have a chance to be heard and worse, will never have a chance to make the business grow and improve.

When there were hundreds of small lables and a dozen or more major lables the chances for talent to "make it' were far greater than now.

Investors were quick to fund new record company startups. Radio stations and MTV were hunting for new talent and the future looked wonderfully promising until file sharing became popular and people started collecting "free" music.

Now, no investors would even consider putting money into an enterprise which is doomed from the start by rampant thievery.

Soon the film industry will also be shut down by thieves and we will have few if any who will risk their money producing something which will be stolen often before it is even released to the theaters. Piracy is a more romantic term for thievery but if it "walks like a duck", etc.

Generations XY&Z have driven a once thriving industry employing tens of thousands into bankruptcy with their "situational ethics" i.e., "Hey everybody's doing it", a quote from a Dartmouth student when asked in a recent article in the WSJ about illegal downloads.

Exactly my point, thievery is acceptable behavior to these generations.

One contributor to this forum wrote copyrights and patents are a waste of time and I agree.

Rip offs are rampant. Drug , electronic ,and software companies are just a few who have seen their hard work "reverse engineered" and watched as counterfit copies undercut their ability to make a even a sustaining profit.

As in the record industry, many of these companies were unable to survive the thievery, closed their doors and laid off thousands.

These Generation XYZ' er's who complain about the Asians ripping off their patents, copyrights, and hard work are seeing a reflection of their own behavior.

What goes around, comes around.........

What has caused the downfall of record companies is lack of talent, both in terms of management, (not being willing or able to change to meet the new computerised age) and the artists they chose to promote namely the ones nobody wanted to listen to.

If you are saying that the only way a major label can survive is to abuse the great privilege that copyright provides them with by charging far too much for a product that is a) nowhere near that cost to produce and because of the computerised age amongst other things we are able to assess the true cost and therefore resent the rip off. b) continue to produce stuff that nobody wants or is willing to pay for, c)Continue to manage their affairs with scant regard to reality and bleat like sheep when their little gravy train comes off the rails due to their unwillingness to adapt in the face of changing technology, which in the most part they have failed to understand or have been too arrogant to believe they would be affected by, then the whole business deserves to go down in flames and good riddance.

Notice how many artists, no longer willing to put up with the nonsense dealt out to them by record companies are embracing the new technology and creating their own successful labels and SELLING their stuff on the internet.

There is nothing more than the Darwinian principle at play here and that is just that the strongest will survive and in that particular industry it means those who chose not to spend half their day in the lavatory or at their desks snorting half the annual GDP of certain South American States.

Sure you mention the collapse of major labels but you make no mention of the creation of new ones and differing business models which will continue to challenge the old guard, not only because they have been ripping off the general public but also giving the artists who make their little scheme possible a very hard time unless they have by some miracle, generally not by design, been responsible for a monster hit and as soon as they fail to provide enough gravy for the ever bloating train they become yesterday's news. No other business would survive given the same dynamic and there would be the same fallout in any other industry with the same business model.

You only have to look at how many once highly respected and successful companies are no longer with us, not because their IP rights were infringed, but because they failed to keep in tune with the times or were bought out by larger and more successful businesses, and in no small part this is also what has happened to record companies.

Naturally where there is a lack of talent there will always be cries apportioning the blame to others and any old excuse will do as not only do these people lack talent, they clearly never had much in the way of integrity and are utterly unable to see that a good deal, if not all of the blame for their early demise rests squarely at their own feet............but being able to see that and do something about it requires more than the ability to flap their gums and snort large quantities of white powder.

You are wrong again. File sharing reduced the sales of recorded medium by 67% according to records submitted to the court by ,Napster,Kazaa, Grokster and other file sharing systems.

A whopping 28 MILLION files containing hundreds of copyrighted materials were exchanged thru Napster alone and you are saying that after a loss of this magnitude the record companies failed to stay in business "because of a lack of talent"!!??? How utterly absurd..

To continue this discussion I am changing the ground rules. You rely on unsubstantiated opinions and wishful thinking. I quote facts. From now on I will respond only to arguements based on facts. Facts will be traceable as to the source and dates of publication.

I am challenging you to develop a factual arguement supporting illegal downloads of copyrighted material and I promise you I will respond ungloved. You are going down!

Just get of your high horse and understand one thing, if you continue to rip people off for long enough you get your comeuppance, plain and simple is that factual enough for you. If the record companies had half a brain in their management, half an ounce of forethought, they could have seen this one coming a mile off, maybe you are one of them and that's why you continue to bleat.

These guys got what they desreved they made their fortunes but now they can't keep up the payments on the lifestlye, and as soon as they can no longer afford the white powder, they might even begin to appreciate that this whole thing was of their own making.

I spend a good deal of my time preserving and defending other people's intellectual property rights and I agree this can be a thankless task, however the vast majority of companies who own intellectual property of all kinds whether they be registered designs, patents or copyrights use them sensibly, licence their products on favourable terms and deal pretty fairly in the main with people of all kinds.

I frankly couldn't give a monkey's backside if all the record companies went out of business tomorrow,because as soon as they went Poof! there would be another buch of ignorant greedy shysters starting up another bunch and doing the same thing all over again because actually what they know about business could be written on the back of a postage stamp with a broad-nibbed pen, if that were not the case they would have had this one wrapped up years ago.

Frankly whether you reply to this or not is of supreme indifference, I know your position, I understand where you're coming from but maybe it's time for you to wake up and smell the coffee.

The reality of the situation is they have all been caught with their trousers down and I can understand their embarassment, but feel no sympathy for them.

And on the subject of ground rules, such as they are this whole thing started by me stating that the criminal minds generally have a great deal more ingenuity, clearly that has proved to be the case. I was just concerned that what seems to be a reasonably good invention may be used as a weapon rather than a shield and as such it would be a bit like putting a sword in the hands of a small child and putting him up against a seasoned gladiator, the chances of success would be just about the same, the child would be ill-equipped despite the weapon being sufficient to do the job, just as most record company management would have difficulty in organising certain celebrations in a brewery, whereas the seasoned gladiator, much like the seasoned criminal would simply eat them for breakfast.

If they want to preserve their IP they should first find a few competent managers who know a little about business in general who have the foresight to see problems looming in the distance before they arise and to take action to prevent or lessen their effect, not run around like headless chickens when it's clearly too late, wondering what to do next, and then saying "I Know let's threaten to sue someone" ....... Terrific.

If these people fall by the wayside it is because they have failed to be the fittest, not surprising given the amount of mind-altering substances consumed, and the fittest have seen them coming and prepared themselves a nice little feast.

One could argue that a certain Mr Gates is guilty of much the same behaviour, I would just make one point, that although this has made him one of, if not the, richest in the world, when was the last time a record company started a serious charitable foundation that did anything other than trying to revive the careers of dynosaurs who would have benefitted from a quiet retirement.

Look what stance the courts have taken over Microsoft, why you may ask did they not do the same to the record companies, because they were all at it and the business was different, they didn't have the one piece of music necessary to access all the others in a form everyone was familiar with, it was all a bit of a question of pot luck, whereas in the IT world there are thousands of systems but only one Microsoft and only one Apple, the courts thought they were wrong and we know the results, the music business and to a certain extent the film business all have their snouts in the same trough, now the reason they are not fighting each other is because they have a common enemy, their former customers, who have had enough of being ripped off.

STILL NO FACTS TO SUPPORT YOUR MEANDERING ACCUSATIONS THAT YOU ARE BEING RIPPED OFF BY THE RECORD COMPANIES OR THAT THEY ARE RIPPING OFF ANYBODY.

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT FACTS ARE? IF YOU DO THEN PLEASE PRESENT THEM OR SHUT UP.

You don't get out much do you?

In response to the words in the question: RFID is valuable also for monitoring stock movements and reordering.

Couldn't agree more.