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Anonymous Poster #1

Gas Detector Question

10/29/2013 2:16 AM

Dear Cr4,

In normal standard,the Gas Detector set two range for alarm 20% LEL and 60 % LEL .But now we order the gas bottle 2.5% volume 50%LEL so we intend to check the detector with high alarm level 60% but the Gas bottle calibration only limited at 50% LEL so can CR4 advise for me this situation how to simulate up to 60% LEL.

Rgs,

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#1

Re: Gas Detector question!

10/29/2013 3:51 AM

Just curious: By the time you reach 60% you should already have had an alarm from 20%. It seems odd to test the upper limit but I might miss something here.

What does the procedure say?

http://ohsonline.com/Articles/2003/11/Calibration-Requirements-for-Confined-Space-Gas-Detectors.aspx?Page=3

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Gas Detector question!

10/29/2013 4:01 AM

thanks for your comment,the gas detect 20% for high alarm and 60% for High high alarm.The purpose of 60% LEL is for confirmed gas testing purpose when we do a Cause and Effect(1 gas 20% and another one 60%) so i confused a bit about concentration of a gas calibration bottle when apply 60% for detector.

Thanks

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Gas Detector question!

10/29/2013 5:17 AM

Two times high alarm???

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#3

Re: Gas Detector question!

10/29/2013 5:04 AM

Try it with a small quantity of >100% LEL gas?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Gas Detector question!

10/29/2013 5:16 AM

I kind of wonder how this is done. Not knowing enough I would think creating a mixture of say 20% LEL up to maybe something 50% LEL is like creating an explosive unless an inert gas is being used as the remaining gas percent.

If a certain gas requires a 60% LEL cut off point (or is it detection point?) why would this not be available as bottled mixture?

How is this mixture applied in the test? In a vacuum chamber? Or still in air where mixing with same is unavoidable?

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Gas Detector question!

10/29/2013 5:37 AM

One wonders why the original poster failed to purchase the correct gas mixture in the first place.

There is a Darwinian flavour to some of these posts over the last few days. Potentially award-winning, some of them...

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#7

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/29/2013 4:06 PM

Don't waste your time. Get the 5% by volume test gas. It costs very little.

I test and calibrate hundreds of these a year. This advice has cost you nothing.

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#11
In reply to #7

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/30/2013 2:25 AM

Thank you for your advise.I'm going to do the same thing you just mentioned.

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#8

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/29/2013 7:16 PM

I am guessing 60% LEL me be dangerous to sell, Once you prove the calibration is correct, maybe you can simulate 60% to test the alarm.

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#9

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/30/2013 12:02 AM

if the gas detector has a display on it that shows the ppm LEL the following is the procedure. Connect the 50ppm LEL test gas to the gas meter and start to test. If the meter indicates 50 ppm LEL the meter is in calibration. If not at 50 adjust the meter to read 50 ppm LEL. Your meter is now calibrated for the indicated range of the meter. Gas meters are not calibrated with the anticipated LEL level. They are calibrated with a known ppm sample gas and the meter is calibrated to match the LEL of the known concentration calibration gas. This is the standard way of calibrating gas detectors. If the gas meter is a portable multi-gas meter each gas detector part is calibrated to the standard concentration of the test sample for each appropriate gas. A meter such as the MSA 5 gas meter is calibrated with 5 gases, each one with a test sample of a known concentration to a particular level on the meter. As stated, the meter is calibrated with a gas of known concentration to a specified gas level on the meter, not necessarily a gas of a concentration that the user wants to use the meter at.

This is the standard procedure for calibrating most all gas detectors. What sometimes is difficult for some users to understand is when the sample gas is a different gas and different concentration then the gas the meter will be used with. This is quite often done for convenience or stability of the sample gas. It does work. Although this is not identical, but similar, to keeping wintergreen vapors away from many gas meters while being used to test for gasses. The wintergreen vapors causes a false reading. This phenomenon is sometimes used for training purposes when the gas that the meter is set up for is too dangerous to handle or be near without protection. The wintergreen vapors cause the same meter deflection as the real gas. A gas commonly used for ppm LEL meter is Pentane although the meters indicate ppm LEL for Methane.

The directions or user instructions for the use and calibration of the meter should describe how to calibrate the meter. If all else fails, look it up. If even that does not work contact the manufacturer with your questions.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/30/2013 12:35 AM

Hi Old Salt,

Good reply. I wonder if the technician/operator wants to test the detector whether it is functioning when there is 60%LEL gas concentration to be detected, how to do it? Is it not possible and can only be done through simulation?

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/30/2013 8:21 AM

zhedzuka-

Once a meter is calibrated to the calibration point with the calibration gas it is considered to be calibrated throughout the range. If the user wants to actually test his meter at the operating concentration there are two alternatives. Both require contacting the manufacturer and asking them if there is a stock calibration gas at that concentration or an equivalent concentration of a calibration suitable gas source. If this is not available the next steps are both expensive and could take a length of time.

1) If the manufacturer can supply such a gas have them supply it. This will probably cost between 1/4 and 3/4 of the original meter. Take this gas and calibrate the meter with it.

2) If the manufacturer does not supply the calibration gas at the appropriate concentration or equivalent concentration, contact a gas blender (they normally blend gases for the electronic circuit boards manufacturers) and ask them if they could blend a mixture with the 60 ppm concentration. You may have to supply a sample of the concentrate for them to test and blend. They will then blend your mixture of gases, the standard size being a lecture bottle or 14 oz metal container such as used for consumer use of propane. Caution- if you have any other way to test the calibration gas, test it before using as a calibration gas. Make sure the supplier has supplied what you ordered. There are more mistakes made with custom blended gases than there are "stock" concentrations. Next, use the supplied custom blend to calibrate you meter at the concentration desired.

3) Contract with an appropriate meter calibration firm, if one is available. This will probably be the most expensive since they have to recoup the costs as if you did it themselves and then add in labor, overhead and profit.

Either one of these procurement methods will be expensive and require considerable lead time.

If all else fails, contact another user of that type of instrumentation and tested gases and ask them what they do.

If everything completely falls apart post another question on CR4. Caution though, the population you are dealing with might not be what you expected. We are usually engineers, scientists and very knowledgeable people with a lot of knowledge. Some are extremely knowledgeable on several subjects and familiar with several others. From there it goes down to familiar with one subject or less. The "worthless" answerers are the ones you need to ignore. Unfortunately, you are the only person who can decide which are good and which are trash. How would you tell the difference between an extremely expert answer from one that is only posted for the glorification of the author. Likewise some answerers will post a completely error filled answer just to try to make you seem like an ignorant idiot. How do you tell the difference? How do you know that I am not including trash in this answer?

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/30/2013 10:36 AM

Mr. Old Salt,

May I also add that when calibrating or testing for calibration, it is a good practice to also pick a low point and a high point during the test. This is to validate the linearity of the measuring device. To check and establish if the meter is going to track and read linearly.. Normally the difference or gap between the low and high end of such selected scale is about 75/100 points, of the measuring range..

Thank you..

vsar

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/30/2013 11:26 AM

vsar-

Agree with you strongly on the linearity point. Problem is that most, if not all, meter manufacturers only supply one standard calibration concentration. They go on the hypothesis that if the calibration point is ok then the whole scale is ok. Unless it is possible to get two calibration concentrations, probably one at 1/3 scale and another at 2/3 scale or above, it would require the extra cost of the custom blending of a calibration gas or possibly two concentrations. If the current calibration gas is not in a concentration suitable for one point of this double concentration calibration, two concentrations would be necessary.

What is important is that the meter be accurate especially at the operational set-point. This holds true for one operational set point but not for a 2 point operational set-point meter unless the set points are very close to each other. Each set-point should have a calibration gas with a concentration close to the set-point in order to check the meter for accuracy.

The extensive costs for gas blends and labor to calibrate the meters to such accuracies with custom blended concentrations makes this an expensive alternate to the single calibration point with one concentration gas mixture. Is it absolutely necessary to have extremely precise readings? What is the added accuracy vs. costs to attain and maintain it. Is the accuracy of the single point calibrate enough for the process being monitored? Linearity is nice to know, but does it have to be known? Example: process requires 70 ppm LEL monitoring, what are the results of accepting a range of +- 3% f.s., 67%---->73%?

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#12

Re: Gas Detector Question

10/30/2013 5:23 AM

Sounds like you are field calibrating in the Oil & Gas industry.

The solutions are: (i) lower the AHH = 60% to 50%, or (ii) get your supplier to change the the make up of the calibration gas from 2,5% to 3%.

Either way, you will have to get buy-in to these solution from your seniors in the organisation. AHH = 50% is a better safety margin in any case, but may cause nuisance alarms, depending on the process plant. Changing the calibration gas mix may cause confusion between old and new stock of the test gas.

However, if management wants to stay with AHH = 60% then that is the solution.

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