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MCC Control Supplies

11/18/2013 9:27 PM

I'm retired now and have time to ponder things.

This may come as a silly question.

Why is the control supply primary feed nearly always taken off the red & blue phases?

OK it's damn near a convention, but why? As far as I can find out, it's not specified anywhere. With most MCC's the control supply requirements are miniscule compared to the total loading. Therefore balancing the load obviously isn't a consideration, if it was then the control supplies would be staggered.

I've wondered about it for forty years since being an apprentice, this is the first time I've asked the question.

Where I served my time there were ten individual plants. The three modern plants had conventional phase rotation @433V, the older plants were originally fed from our own power station. They had reversed phase rotation @550V.

Just to add to the fun, we had a 220-0-220V DC distribution system along with 220V control.

In the middle there were several interface panels with opposing 110V AC and 220V DC control.

It's not really a serious question, just a matter of interest. Why is it nearly always done like that?

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#1

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/18/2013 10:16 PM

You want them all on the same two phases for one reason; in the event of a single phasing or low voltage condition you want all control circuits, relays/contactors, etc. to operate or misoperate in exactly the same fashion.

Imagine the chaos if some transformers received full voltage and the contactors held in while the transformers on the faulted phase dipped below the drop-out point for their respective coils. If they're all on the same phases at least they'll all operate in the same manner. It's one of the reasons that utilities and critical processes use separate control supplies to ensure consistent operation.

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#13
In reply to #1

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 5:53 PM

I respectfully disagree. Any 3 phase motor if on a properly designed circuit, will fault due to single phasing of that motor. Also most resistive 3 phase circuit will also have controls with the same purpose. 3 phase circuits do not have to have their control on the same polly phase. I have had times when technicians insist on using the first and second phase for control. That is my take on the point anyway.

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#2

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/18/2013 11:02 PM

As your are a retired person, Still having trouble with your homework ?

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#3

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/19/2013 12:33 AM

Physically, Red and Blue should be further apart, this will minimise any chances of a potential short circuit.

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#4

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/19/2013 10:44 PM

I was told once that it was easier to add auxiliary contacts "outside" the red and blue phases since the white phase was in the middle and posed a greater difficulty to access. Seemed fair at the time but I seriously doubt there was any real scientific reasoning behind it.

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#5

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 12:35 AM

For under/over voltage/frequency & phase failure/reversal etc there are "multi-function" relays.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 12:43 AM

Yes, and how does this help to explain why red / blue phase connection is "chosen" for control circuit energisation?

You're normally on the ball Pnaban...have you skipped your meds today?

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 1:00 AM

Irrespective of in which phase(s),control supply is taken,if there is any kind of voltage problem there should be trip of main breaker.

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#8

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 5:13 AM

Some old 2 phase systems I worked on were phase coloured red and blue so it may be a carry over from 2 phase to 3 phase supplies. Probably the same reason I was told to reverse motor rotation by swapping the red and blue so the markings still read r/y/b

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#9

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 7:21 AM

I cannot answer your question directly, but I would like to draw your attention to the fact that each phase colour is only really a marking. It does not mean that the red phase in one building/area, is also the red phase somewhere else......

It basically only demonstrates the rotation.......

I am sure that with modern equipment it is probably now possible to get the red phases everywhere to be the same phase, but years ago, when many cables were laid, was it possible to identify, 100% accurately, each individual phase? I somehow doubt it....but that is just me maybe......whats your take?

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 7:41 AM

Yes sort of.

So long as the rotation is correct it doesn't matter what the order is.

I have come across legacy distribution networks where the phases at different load centres are not identically marked but the rotation is correct, mostly at least....it meant that the rotation had to be checked before committing to a termination of a load. eg if all the feed conductors are black and identically embossed or otherwise marked.

In new installations keeping the phase reticulation identical throughout the distribution network makes for easy commissioning and relatively idiot proof load connection.

Rotation direction is more important than consistent identification.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 8:05 AM

Great post, I agree entirely.

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#11

Re: MCC Control Supplies

11/20/2013 7:51 AM

You don't always have RYB sometimes often you encounter RWB.

White is often used to mark neutral. So going with RB eliminates reduces the possibility of blunder. As a previous poster mentioned it may just be a hang over from 2 phase reticulation colour conventions.

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