An Australian Engineering Solution for an Ecological Problem

Hi Masu,

Interesting attempt at solving the problem. Whenever beer is involved, you get plenty of "volunteers"!!

They had to do something similar in a city next to Montreal (Canada) about the European squirrels. Every year for about 5 years, there was 2-3 weeks of "open season" on the little rats and they would pay a certain amount ($) for every squirrel tail you would bring back. They stopped when the population got back under control.

I might have to visit Australia and go get my "share" of the pot...

When my dad was a kid, there was a bounty on one type of sparrow (I forget which) that was stealing territory from the beloved Song Sparrow. Kids were paid a penny a head - literally. They had to bring the sparrow heads in to be counted. There weren't many ways to earn money, so the local boys became avid sparrow hunters. The best way was to hunt at night, when sparrows wouldn't fly. The boys would shine flashlights up into the trees to find sparrows with dark tummies (Song Sparrows are white below) and shoot them.

The sparrow counters who paid the bounty made one bad mistake - they bagged the sparrow heads and threw them into the trash bin in the alley. Clever boys discovered this, retrieved the bags, and recycled the sparrow heads for more pennies. What a scam...

Dad never said whether he was one of those scammers!

'Bout 12 years ago I was working at Mc Arthur River Mine (HYC). A couple of us would go out on regular Toad Hunts. Pair of Steel Capped Gumboots, Maddock Handle and a Dolphin Torch. My best effort was 52 in 2 hours. Too bad they didn't have the beer quota then. Sigh....

I really admire the Australian can-do attitude. Follow this link for a short video about another Aussie solution to an ecological problem: the Solar Power Tower

http://dsc.discovery.com/beyond/player.html?playerId=203711706&bclid=958525258

I like the new avatar. I have a 'normal' (12 x pentagon faces) dodecahedron sitting on my desk - Now I will have to make one like yours so I can see it's properties better !

Kris (not signed in)

Sorry for off topic masu - I will ponder the toad dilema.

Hey Guys, while we're off topic.

If you like cardboard cut out stuff (and don't we all Boys & Girls?...but, they only let me have plastic scissors in here...)

Have you ever made a hexaflexagon?....brilliant...I first came across them many years ago in Martin Gardner's excellent Mathematical Puzzles & Diversions.

Google them If youv'e not come across 'em (and build a simple one first)...I promise they will put a grin on your face.

Meanwhile back at the thread.....The whole Cane Toad story is a bit like the old folk song...'I know and old woman who swallowed a fly'

Hi Kris, see Wikipedia for some beautiful rotating images of these and other regular solids. Also, thanks for the link to the Wolfram site -- I need to make some models to help me visualize how to tesselate space for a 3-D cellular automata program I'm writing (cube version already finished).

And now for the on-topic content. I though of an alternative way to deal with the Australian toad plague: release thousands of sterilized female toads throughout the country. Far less enjoyable than drinking beer, but more compassionate towards the toads.

Gidday svengali,

I though of an alternative way to deal with the Australian toad plague: release thousands of sterilized female toads throughout the country. Far less enjoyable than drinking beer, but more compassionate towards the toads.

Actually you are nearly spot on except they are doing it with the males. There are far more females than males and they have been breeding males that are even more sex crazed then the natural ones but are in fact sterile. The plan is to breed heaps of them and then release them into the wild where they will dominate the breeding and stop the reproductive process.

I seem to remember hearing that they were also looking a sexually transmitted virus that they can infect the males with prior to releasing them. I havn't heard anything abut the status of this idea though and it may have just been an idea that got shelved.

Masu,

To really earn your beer you may need to organise a few fact finding tours (junkets) then come up with an enhanced formula for performance based beer pay. A couple of starting points for you:

1.Toads on the East Coast are mostly becoming smaller.

2. Crows know how to kill the buggers and survive.

3. The virus that is giving all amphibians a hard time seems to affect toads even more than frogs, the frogs recovered quickly when the drought ended. We had millions of baby frogs recently around Slade Point.

So how is this for a beer earning proposal? Capture some families of crows from the East Coast and after ensuring they have no diseases to infect their inland cousins, send them on holiday to places like Katherine, Darwin and Kakadon't so they can set up school on how to eat toads safely. No I don't want to subject the poor buggers to a "Generic Induction".

When the crows start increasing their effectiveness, then the process could be repeated with the brown hawks and quolls who also know how to deal with toads.

Unfortunately the greenies kick up a fuss these days when we play "cane toad golf", maybe we need to teach the crows to eat greenies too, they multiply even faster than toads and are even less use.

Australia already has the answer, mate.

On your Great Barrier Reef you have fishes called Puffers, File fish and Trigger fish. These fish can change sexes by themselves, sometimes within days.

It is believed that the endocrine system produces a hormone that allows this to happen.

It'll take a micro biologist and a chemical engineer to team up on this one.

1. Isolate the hormone
2. pull out the dna strand that allows the 'switch back'
3. create a same sex strain
4. give it to as many 'horny toads' as you can find
5. they in turn would mate with normal toads
6. their off spring will be all males or females
7. ...just be sure the dna strand that allows a switch back is pulled out

Genetically engineered toads would decrease their own population.

netamaker

Those genetically engineered toads are damn smart, mind you. The health of the planet is foremost in their sexy little minds.

On your Great Barrier Reef you have fishes called Puffers, File fish and Trigger fish. These fish can change sexes by themselves, sometimes within days.

Actually this is slightly off topic and rather more serious than the thread in general but the Great Barrier Reef is in serious trouble. The problem comes with the algae that the coral live with symbiotically. If the water warms too much the algae start producing toxins and the coral need to expel them. The process is called coral bleaching and if the water stays too warm long enough the coral dies.

There have already been large areas of the reef affected by coral bleaching and if the water warms by a little as 1° C there is a good chance that the Great Barrier Reef will die.

So far, according to historical weather records mean atmospheric temperatures continent wide are 1° C warmer than those in the middle of the 20^th century.

Things are not looking good for the largest living structure on the planet. So if you want to see it in its glory do it soon, it may be just an empty, colourless, lifeless shell in as little as a decade.

Well..... until we humans learn to quit bringing in 'alien' species to fix our problems, these sort of things will always happen.

You know, when my old man landed on Guam in the 40's with the Marines, there were no snakes anywhere on the island. Now the island is home to a brown tree snake that is wiping out the entire bird population.

The cute nutria rat ate more holes in Louisiana levees than any back hoe ever did. It can contributed to levee failure.

Asian carp now rule the upper Mississippi and Missouri river systems. They make it impossible for small boats to navigate.

The Chinese Mitten crab eats the Chesapeake Bay, Blue claw crab.

It goes on and on..........

Say, i wonder if this point will have anything to do with immigration legislature in the future ..........hmmm?????

Hi netmaker,

I happen to agree with you. Many times man does things without consideration of long term consequences. However, I think today given the state of scientific and ecological awareness such things are much less likely to occur. As masu indicated the cane toads were introduced in 1935.

It's interesting that the nutria was introduced to Louisiana for their fur. I understand the meat is quite edible and supposedly healthy. Have you tried Chef Paul Prudhomme's nutria dishes? Is the bounty program still in effect?

Since the Chinese mitten crab is such a delicacy in China, perhaps we could start a program to promote it as a food item in the U.S. I understand the Yangtze river has been decimated of these crabs due to overfishing.

The immigration issue that you mention is interesting...

Maybe we could introduce a foreign species of politician. Think that would decimate the legislature?

Cheers,

John

John,

To answer your questions;

Nutria is DELCIOUS !

1. cooked in brown gravy with onions in a black iron pot
2. bar-b-qued with 'tater salad on the side and sweet tea(w/mint and lemon)
3. cut up and fried like gator

Forget Prudhomme, these Cajun women around here make him look like an amateur.

As for, introducing Mitten crabs as a sellable sea food, the dept. heads of the USFWS would rather have a cerebral stroke first. Those guys don't want anything new.

I saw a few of the critters and they did not look too appetizing at all.

as for the politicians, I am waiting to see how many of them haul ass out of here when the first big storm hits..............no wants to take responsibility for this state any more. Nothing is fixed and we are already two weeks into hurricane season. We don't need a virus to get rid of them, just a small CAT 2 or 3.

Keep in touch......

Netmaker

Now I really think you should start a restaurant chain & specialize in the critters. You'll be famous and make lots of $$$ (Ahem, maybe you're already....).

I love crab meat but when I saw a picture of that mitten crab with those hairy claws- Eeyewwwww!

A D9 might scatter them but they'd come back more numerous than ever (and probably even less competent).

It isn't easy to sell ugly animals as food. But if you sell them as nice, clean, prepackaged parts - well, that's different. Take, for example, the monkfish. That's one seriously ugly fish! Put it on a bed of ice at the fish-mongers, and it'll scare everybody away. Forty or so years ago they started selling it as fillets (very cheap). People suddenly discovered that it had a texture and flavor similar to lobster! Stores called it "poor man's lobster" and raised the price. It got so popular that it's now over-fished and overpriced...

I know what you mean. I remember the Orange Roughy market. That bug eyed fish that came up from the deep was the next best thing since sliced wheat bread to the Yuppy market.

I'll be up your way in August ( near Alton) with the USFWS demonstarting a new type purse seine to hold those Asian Carp in the Illinois and Mississippi river. It is unbelievable what acrobatics those big fish can do when you spook 'em.

netmaker

Alton's cool. Great river scenery, good antique shops. If you have spare time, and if you're into such things, there's a fabulous archaeological site nearby: Cahokia Mounds.

About the Orange Roughy - it used to be called the Slimehead! Yuppies didn't take to it until the new name came along. I've heard it said that it's properly pronounced "ROO-ey" rather than "RUFF-ey". Can you confirm or deny?

ASTRO,

No , i can not confirm the name but all of my commercial fishing contacts still refer to it as Roughy. The quota is down to 1/3 of what it was back -in-the-day.........I personally thnk it should be reduced even further as these fish as slow re-producers.

As for Alton, I've been to the caves.......really interesting place.

I'll be taking some pictures of the fish when we try herdiong them up in the new seine. I'll post here if the feds give me permission.

keep in touch

netmaker

Say, i wonder if this point will have anything to do with immigration legislature in the future ..........hmmm?????

So you are a Native American then ? What tribe do you originate from?

There is a piece in 'Hunting with the Bow and Arrow' about Ishi the Last of the Yana Indian....eventually died of TB...the rest of his tribe had been slaughterd by white men with guns for 'sport' while they were putting up the telegrph lines across the country.

...........sorry missed that.........

no Natives around here....they all live in Jeanerette, La. and they own the most profitable casino in Louisiana......

Hi masu.

Most of the people reading about Bufo marinus have no idea. Rob got a six pack for this little beauty. They are not bad eating once you have removed the poison glands. A bit like chicken I here them say. This photo is not computer generated.

Good point. You can export them to China and France where there are huge markets for frog legs. Genetically modifying them to breed only males or females is probably a bad idea though. They may well change sex in an all same-sex environment, or female toads might somehow even breed parthenogenetically. After all, it happened to a komodo dragon in the London Zoo.

I don't doubt Ky , and I posted a thing about about eating Cane Toads someplace here. But just to amuse you Lord Vader ;

Shhssss.

Gidday Ky,

Just wondering why that cane toad hasn't got a shadow? Is it a Vampire toad? Also wondering why the image is a bit blurry near the guy's left arm but sharp on the RH side of the toad?

Mmmm, taste like chicken? Yeah rrrriiiiggghhhhtttt.

It's the bottom side of the earth, the sun comes from below.

He He Ha Ha Ho Ho.

Actually, I think your right. The Sun does appear to Aussies first. That's why we are always ahead of the rest of the World.

Right back at you babe.

The kiwis that live at the very northern tip of the north island of New Zealand get the new day before anybody else but I don't think any of the Kiwis that live there can tell the time so they havn't yet realized it, so, lets not tell them and keep them in the 19^th century!!

Just joking, I know a lot of Kiwis and have spent much time in NZ but you have to wonder when they manage to black out the entire central business district of Auckland for five weeks because the never bothered to upgrade the grid feeders for something like 40 years..

That's not completely true masu. Ignoring the dibble glacier in Antarctica (because nobody lives there ) , the sunrise honour belongs to a dependency of NZ. Since 1995 the date-line has swerved around Kiribati. If you look at the following link you will see there is some disagreement on the topic.

Did you see this quote in one of the links about the power outage ;

Mercury are busy hiring out what generators they have at $1000/day to the
businesses they've cut off

Strewth !

According to the old ones, Americans brought what we call here the "American frog". Actually, it's not a frog but a toad, specifically, a poisonous toad. 'Don't know what the real name is. The reason they brought them in, so they say, was to eliminate the snakes that they were so afraid of. This was about 50 or more years ago.

Recently, our factory came under scrutiny because dead fish were found in the river that flows past our factory. Tests of our wastewater didn't show anything that might have killed them, however. We did find a dead toad near the discharge pipe though. It was later identified to be an American frog.

Thus far, I haven't heard of any concern about these creatures. I've heard stories about dogs or cats getting killed when they bite or lick these things but hese stories are isolated and few in number. Maybe we'd better have someone look into these things too.

Strange: my dog doesn't bite toads.

He bites and tries everything else (it's a labrador)

Once a toad jumped in the living room and he was jumping round the toad but did not touch it. As he knew that it is not healty.

I saw a dog once play with a toad. He would take it by the leg, drag it a couple of feet and drop it. Then he waited for it to move before repeating the act. I guess he had a little bit of cat genes in him.

A friend told me his neighbor's dog once licked a toad. He must have liked the taste bacause he did it again and again. Soon the poor thing just started acting strangely and died rather badly.

You've got a smart dog I guess.

The Cane Toad allegedly came from Hawaii, wonder if it is the same beast.

Whoa there home boy........

Are we talking about a toad ?

Are we talking about frogs Rana Catesbeiana (Bull frog)?

That picture is one big ol' toad looking critter.

You all eat that thing? Where's the poison gland?

You know I did some work with a feller a few years back on a harvesting method for your Destructicus(?) crawfish......I mean Yabbies ....

The regular toads can secrete a poison that will kill a small dog if they pick them up their mouths. I'm guessing this big un' does the same.

Selling their legs for meat would be Ok . Most USA restaurants get frog legs from India, China and Japan. We have a good population of frog giggers here in Louisiana but the numbers of our big frogs are down due to polution. Seems frogs are affected right off by pollution.

My last trip with my boy into the Prairie Roan swamp got us 56 between 1 and 2 lbs each and got me snake bit by a damn diamond back water snake............not poisonous but a mouthful of needle sharp teeth that makes a nasty egg shaped bite mark that always gets infected!

I would still think working the angle on dna and same sexing would be the best route.

The Tilapia folks are making serious money on those XXX Male Nolotica. they spawn out just males and they grow really fast. I am sure the same technology could work on your toads.

netmaker

To my knowledge no one is dumb enough to eat the slimy ugly buggers.

OK How about some suggestions on doing away of the Toad. I'll start

1. Golf Club. ( 9 iron is best)

2. Cricket Bat. ( not a baseball bat as you would have to pick the bugger up).

3. Salt. (He He)

4. Bleach. (ho ho)

5. Car tyre (they go Pop).

6. Petrol (gas for americans). (watch that they don't jump under the house-that happened to a friend)

etc.

Hi geomech,

"To my knowledge no one is dumb enough to eat the slimy ugly buggers."

You guys just haven't figured it out yet. There's a period of time after metamorphosis from tadpole to toad when they and not poisonous (poison glands have not yet developed). So harvest the youg buggers and get them to market fast. "Okay son, be sure to eat your peas and toad before you go to school". Are they really slimy, or is that just another name for gravy?

Seriously though, I understand certain creatures have figured out a way around the poison. The Black Kite bird, for example, attacks the toad from underneath- rips the skin off and thus avoids the poison. Other predators have adapted as well. So, as has been pointed out already, nature is working to bring things into balance. Just takes a while and meantime it apparently remains a bad situation.

7. Flamethrower.

8. Synthetic life form (not affected by poison).

etc.

Cheers,

John

Hi Masu, great idea! I'm booking a ticket right now, I'm coming over to set up a breeding farm!

Maybe insects hold the answer. I'd be very careful though - we all know how wrong natural predator methods can go. The people discussing female representation in engineering on (CR4) may get more than they bargained for !

The mechanism seems to be greatly studied in ladybirds. The Science seems complex. I recently had an explosion of the things in my garden , but I can't tell which are which ! There must be some evolved balance process going on - I don't get the impression that this is a new eco disaster (like CCD with bees is reported to be).

Perhaps australian miners could be persuade do use 'Eau de Toad' while hunting .

I'd be very worried if they started releasing a modified version of this male-killing bacteria. Every time we try to fool mother nature, it comes back with a vengeance !!

Imagine if this bacteria "broke loose" and evolved down the food chain = mass extinction.

Scary, I tell you....

.... my point precisely Rick. The toads are on the loose in Oz and any solution is going to have costs. In a way , mankind is slowly making itself part of the food chain.Biological solutions are far too dangerous to mess with. Alas we have to deal with consequences of the past.

Does anybody know how the 'do nothing' scenario woul develop with the Cane Toads ? I'm not suggesting it should be done , just curious.

"Does anybody know how the 'do nothing' scenario woul develop with the Cane Toads ? I'm not suggesting it should be done , just curious."

I think that they would continue on their destructive path throughout the Australian continent but would eventually "meet their match" (in some form of predator). The damages to Australia's wildlife would/will be extensive but as you stated, we have to live with the consequences of our ancestor's mistakes (and NOT repeat them or worse, amplify them).

Meanwhile, I think there's no harm in the locals practising their golf swing on the critters whilst having a beer or two...

"I think that they would continue on their destructive path throughout the Australian continent but would eventually "meet their match" (in some form of predator)."

The problem is that there are no natural predators for Bufo in Australia and anything that eats them dies from the toxin that they generate. By the way the toxin is generated in glands in their skin. It can either be disbursed over their body or builds up in small sacks that can squirt it some distance if the toad is threatened. If you get in in your eyes it is extremely painful and while I have never heard of it blinding anybody I believe it has done irreparable damage.

There are reports that some of the more intelligent crows have figured out that if you tear the skin off them the meat is edible. Crows are pretty smart creatures and it something like this doesn't sound too far fetched but I have never seen any confirmation that this is indeed true.

There are reports of snakes dying after eating them and when you consider the snakes that we have in Australia that's pretty bad. Of the 20 most venomous land snakes in the world 18 are native to Australia and the 10 most venomous are all native to Australia. That's before we start to talk about sea snakes and some of them make the land based ones relatively mild.

There are reports of crocodiles dieing after eating Bofo but I have not been able to confirm this. There are two types of crocodile that are native to Australia, The fresh water crocodile which is the smaller and is generally timid and normally live slightly inland beyond the reach of tidal salt water. The other crocodile is the salt water or estuarine crocodile and these are a completely different creature that are much larger, mean and with no fear of humans believe they are above us on the food chain. Salties have a brain that functions on a very simple principle

You better believe it too and I have seen a croc farmer bitten by one while it was still not completely hatched with only its head out of the shell.

The following is an excerpt form and conversation between a tourist and ranger.

• Tourist: Are there any man eating sharks in the water here?
• Ranger: No, there are no man eating sharks here.
• Tourist. Are you absolutely certain there are no sharks?
• Ranger: Yep, I am 100% sure there are no sharks here.
• Tourist: How can you be so sure?
• Ranger: Oh, that's simple, the crocks ate em all.

So, I can't see a Bufo killing a full grown saltie but perhaps a juvenile or freshie could succumb to the poison.

"I'd be very worried if they started releasing a modified version of this male-killing bacteria. Every time we try to fool mother nature, it comes back with a vengeance!"

Actually until recently Australia had a very serious problem with rabbits. They have no natural predator and the land that was cleared for farming was ideal for them to breed unchecked. Towards the middle of the 20^th century they tried using myxomatosis which did have a some success but the rabbits still kept causing troubles. Ultimately they use the rabbit calicivirus and tested it extensively on an island that kept it isolated from the mainland. Somebody tried to jump the gun and stole one of the infected rabbits releasing it on a farm, but, ultimately the virus proved to be safe to everything but the rabbit and it was eventually released on the mainland. The Results were extremely successful and the rabbit population in Australia has been nearly completely wiped out.

While Bufo is a big problem that needs to be dealt with, there are other imports that are at least as bad and maybe even worse. Ferrell cats and foxes are a real problem and responsible for the extension of numerous small creatures and birds. The cats are probable the worst but as far as I know there is no coordinated plan to deal with them yet.

I have the idea that a nice cold winter with two weeks of frost -10°C would solve a lot of the problems. It solves nearly all problems with bugs up here.

I feel for you guys. It seems to me that some of the people (making the decisions) keep making the same mistakes over and over (bring in toads to deal with a certain problem without realizing that you are creating an even bigger one. So you bring in some other animal to deal with the toads and create yet another one and so on). I'm not suggesting that nothing should be done but I do hope that whatever solution brought forward will have been studied enough NOT to cause another disaster. The crows seem to have evolved enough to deal with the problem and maybe (hopefully) some of the other predators will do the same in time to avoid extinction. Mother nature has a knack for correcting her own mistakes but when WE interfere, all hell brakes loose....I wish you all the luck.

regards,

Rick.

masu , bear with me on this one. Why does Australia have so many venomous creatures ? Why did this situation evolve. Are they a victim of their own success now because they didn't evolve defence mechanisms for unexpected competitors.

If indigenous animals in Oz are endangered because of rogue imports , can a solution be found by looking at similar places elsewhere . Madagascar perhaps ?- just noticing one creature that has developed a defence mechanism may provide a lead. I'm guessing that both countries are in a similar plight. If both places have evolved n parallel isolation , maybe one has a solution for the other (to use a loose analogy , getting a transplant from a close relative).

Just thought I'd shoot off a totally wild idea.

Masu,

Don't look now, but the Calici virus lost effectiveness quickly. Rabbits march further North each year, but at least they are edible.

Until the ban on hunting in the 70s Crocs had a healthy fear of humans. It is high time to start culling them as there are more here than ever. Aborigines used to eat the eggs and young which controlled the numbers to some degree.

You are absolutely spot abut the crocks not having a fear of humans as they are protected and no longer hunted. Considering they are also farmed for their hide and meat I think some controlled culling would make them a little bit more weary of people. The other problem is the tourist operators that encourage them to come after baits and jump out of the water as in the photograph on the right. This is just encouraging them to interact with humans and can only mean big trouble.

I havn't been to the top end for about 10 years now but even so if you didn't do anything stupid and kept relatively clear they would leave you alone. While I was working in the top end a tourist was taken by one while wading in knee deep water. However within clear sight of the spot he was taken there was this bloody great sigh like the one a left, so, what can you do to protect idiots from themselves. Maybe I should put him in for a Darwin award.

On a lighter note about the top end, have you heard about the Darwin Ice Hockey Team that are the undefeated world champions? The send invitations to all the worlds best teams and when they never show up they claim victory by default. There was a bit of a worry when out of the blue the Swiss Muhen team turned up one day. But the venue failed to freeze over, so, the game was declared a draw and everybody adjourned to the bar.

Brilliant! You can rely on you guys to take everything to it's illogical conclusion. I belonged to a similiar sort of thing, The Knights of the Square table Cycling Club. There was 6 of us, and 1 bike.........

"There was 6 of us, and 1 bike........."

Holy crap!....I nearly p*ssed my pants...

Co-workers thought I went nuts !

Oh come on! Your Canadian! I've worked in Canada, I know you lot have a good pub/club scene, you must have done a similar thing?

Mind you, you lot did think I was nuts..........

Did a lot of crazy things (and still do) but it's still early over here (7h30 am) and I was caught off-guard when I read your post. Hell, I'm still smiling...

Oh well, theres a lot of satisfaction to be had, making people smile..................

I'm planning on a holiday / fishing trip to Karumba in October, so I expect I'll see plenty of the buggers whether I want to or not.

What about the "Darwin Award" nominee this year, (tourist of course) who wanted a close up of a croc, there were plenty sunning on the bank, so he gets in the water with a camera and starts splashing to attract one. The dumb gene must have affected the taste as the Croc spat him out. Of course it could have been the Gummy Croc from the "Swamp" cartoon strip, nobody seems to to have asked old clever pants if it had a "Nit Picking Bird wearing sunglasses" riding on its shoulder.

Hi Emjay4119,

I don't know if it spread to Queensland but in Darwin there was a photograph that was printed on T-shirts of a billabong taken in the early evening? Glaring back at you from the darkness were dozens of pairs or red eyes. The caption was;

"Crocks, what crocks?"

I was going to post it on this thread but I have been unable to find either my hard copy of it or an electronic one on the internet.

Good one.

I don't know if the "tourist operators" on this side of the border do the "Daly River Lure" trick you alluded to, I haven't heard of it here but that means nothing.

I remember reading somewhere how to respond when cornered by a saltie. It went something like this;

If you are ever cornered by a salt water crocodile do not try and run or climb a tree as crocodiles can run faster than most humans and jump several metres high.

What you need to do is stick your arms out on either side so that they are horizontal, then you must move both arms up and down together as fast a you possibly can.

If you are lucky and flap really, really, really hard there is just the slightest chance that you will be able to fly and escape the jaws of the crocodile.

Please note that to date no other technique has proved more successful than this.

Actually as has come up in other posts, salties are starting to become a bit of a problem. About 15 years ago during one of my trips to Darwin, they caught an immature one in the park that is just across from the Darwin Sheraton Hotel where I was staying.

The joke about the salties eating all the sharks is not as silly as it sounds as according to the Wikipedia article on salties sharks are definitely on their menu.

If you ever get to Darwin make sure you leave time to go to the Northern Territory Museum & Art Gallery. They have the skin and skeleton of a really old 5 m (17 foot) saltie called sweetheart, that died while they were trying to relocate it. Evidently it had taken a dislike to the noise made by the outboard motors the local fishermen were using on their boats. Reportedly, on several occasions it had come up and torn the outboards off the back of the boats then taken pleasure in ripping the motors to pieces.

Hi masu,

"Reportedly, on several occasions it had come up and torn the outboards off the back of the boats then taken pleasure in ripping the motors to pieces."

Sounds just like the movie "Jaws". When's it coming out? Possible title: Motormouth

-John

While masu negotiates with Old Saltie , you could look here John. And make it snappy !

No, no, I starred if that movie Kris!

I played the monstrous man-eating croc. Tobe didn't give me enough credit though. If not for me, what would the teenagers have done to fill up 2 hours? Who would have eaten them? I'm just not fond of Hooper any more.

Thats's the way to do it ! I generally survive my close encounters with crocs.

A friend's son in Mount Isa lent me a copy of the story of "Sweetheart", it is quite a yarn. There is a story from the Mackay Daily Mercury somewhere around 1918 (when the big cyclone blew Mackay to bits) of a rather large croc which was shot from the veranda of the Liechardt Hotel (In River Street, recently demolished). The croc was allegedly over 6 metres long and the belly skin was on the wall of the pub for many years until it disappeared.

There are quite a few appearing around the district these days as smaller ones move further afield looking for territory to grow large in without being eaten by a bigger bloke. A smallish one (about 2m) has been spotted in the Gooseponds in the middle of North Mackay (Irwin even had something to say about it). Many of the creeks North and South of town have the buggers in residence. One of the Watson clan runs tours of the Proserpine River (100k North) to show them to tourists. They are spreading quite fast, but until they spread to Tasmania and eat Bob Brown (hopefully only him) nothing will be done about it.

Have you seen the Cooktown Tee Shirt with the pet croc running along beside the Ute, and the owner waving a stick yelling, "Get home Ya Mongrel"?

"a rather large croc which was shot from the veranda of the Liechardt Hotel "

How far did it go?

I checked the archives and can only document a 3 metre saltie being fired from the balcony of a local pub. Caused quite an uproar when it landed in a parish priest's lap.

-John

Parish Priest's lap, that's a new one, I like it.

I know this is off topic , but which of the dudes are you ? They're all painters , but the masks are different (I think). And I'm also sure you only recently moved to Atlantis. Cool.

Is that a different avatar or did you somehow superimpose the boot over your old furry self?

Nutkin will not tell you masked painting Ninja. I know I should be able to tell you from your colour , but I'm feeling lazy and not curious enough yet.

That's Leonardo, you silly squirrel!

Although why he's calling himself "Johnjohn" is a mystery.

Hi Astro,

Leonardo's disguised as johnjohn (because he's a ninja).

Actually, I have a question about this. The original Leonardo avatar was quite animated but when I put him in CR4, he's quite lifeless as you can see. Do you think maybe he objected to being put out in the light of day?

-John

Leonardo's disguised as johnjohn (because he's a ninja).

So which one of you is the Ninja ? I saw a blue masked thingy , but he was (like the parrot) bereft of life. And now he has simply

Can you see me now? Can you see me now?

I'm busy painting the cistern.

Hey Doc,

Are you painting the "cistern chapel" or perhaps this?

Igor stop now! Get out! The experiment is ruined. Somebody help me! I'm calling the authorities. I didn't mean to defile that exalted principle?

Somehow I knew my little joke wouldn't be above you. I used numbers 'cos it saves time. Hippocratic is so easily confused with hypocritic. I'll put it in de file.

Here's one sign. And another. A lot seem to get taken for souvenirs or to use for pranks (neighbours pool etc). I think the main problem is that tourists don't always know how seriously to take warning signs.

As you say masu , crocs don't usually give a second chance. Hippos are (I think) the biggest killer in Africa, but signs don't always show the danger. Enough.

G'Day,

I stand corrected.

Several posts here have made much more sense than my ill thought out suggestion of messing with dna.......to produce all male or female toads.

When I think back i remember a dna project crossing a catfish with a silk worm. the fish would go dormant when infected by a virus. It would immerge from the dormancy virus free. Problem: the virus supposedly did not give up and would continue to mutate until it was of sufficient strength to beat the catfish.

I also remember a project where fish were 'altered' to grow faster. the problem was that when these fish were supposed to spawn, but they didn't have the "urge" any more .

I stand corrected. You are on the strangest of all continents.........no ill meaning here.

You have critters that have evolved in their own strange ways for eons....much like the Galapagos.

You haev the world's deadliest spider, the world's deadliest jelly fish and that cute lil' octopus that washes up on your beach will KILL a human in minutes. You have salt water crocs that KNOW to hang out around swimming holes, marina's and near docks......hoping someone will fall in.

You have the Duck Bill, nature's cruelest piece of art work.

There is most definitely a chance that a dna engineered toad could pass that XX chromosone or dna template into the food chain........and YOUR continent would be the place.

Put a bounty on the toads. $.50 a piece........ let everybody get into the fray until their numbers are held down. If it costs $1 or 2 Milliion that is still cheap compared to the damage.......

netmaker

You may be close to the point nemaker. Will market forces prevail . What I mean is that will the economic cost of the Toads reach a point where a solution arises ,even if it's a 1000 OZ Dollars for each Toad caught ? What is the balance point.

Kris,

In business there are two ways to llok at a "cost".

the actual cost and the REAL cost.

The actual cost is $XXX for the fabrication and selling of the device, etc.

The REAL cost is the development, the fabrication, the distribution, how much time is involved in each,what happens if it fails and what happens if you DON't do it right the first time.

Sort of like why I'll pay a mechanic $55 an hour to fix my truck. If I did it it would cost 1/4 of that (just the parts) but would take me several hours). Those hours would make me much more $$ if I were building nets instead. The actual cost is one thing but the REAL cost down the line can be so much greater......

Looking at 100 million or 100 billion $$ of damage to the ENTIRE Aussie eco systems, farm crops, reptiles and even mammal populations makes a 1-2 million $$ Bounty Hunting fee look pale.

The REAL cost is what happens if this is left alone.

I think we are both on the same track.

Fried fish today but no 'chips' .......just some potatoe salad and sweet tea.......I am an addict for sweet tea especially when it hits 89-95F in the shop like it is right now.

I can't wait to try my new condenser unit thing-a- ma- jig when it comes in.

Keep in touch.......

netmaker

Hi netmaker,

As Kris said why is it that "down-under" has the meanest, most venomous, fiercest creatures on the planet? The box jellyfish, for example, is the absolute king, having the most deadly venom in the entire animal kingdom.

Maybe with your talents you should be assisting the Aussies with jellyfish nets for beaches such as this one at Ellis Beach, Queensland:

Lack of natural predators aside, I'm really curious why there are so many extremely venomous creatures there. Does anyone have a theory?

John

Keep in mind that Australia is one of the driest countries and islands on earth and as such limits the amount of natural resources (ie pray animals). So when predators actually find pray they need to incompacitate the prey quickly before it escapes. That's one theory that makes the most sense.

The Box jellyfish ad the smaller Irukandji jellyfish (6 known species - commonly the size of you thumb) has approxiatly 14,000 different toxins. Nasty buggers.

Problem with the jelly nets are that turtles, sharks and assorted animals get caught.

Of all the things that can bite, sting, poison or eat you in Australia the one that I am told manages to put the most people in hospital is this little bugger.

It scientific name is Myrmecia but it is more commonly known as the bull ant.

As ants go this one is a bit of a weirdo and while they do display the usual social structure, where the colony always comes before any individual, they also exhibit individual territorial behavior. It's not uncommon to see two bull ants from the same nest, having a real go at each other for no apparent reason. The other strange thing is that when this happens the remainder of the nest stands back and doesn't get involved till there is a clear winner, at which time the looser becomes lunch for the onlookers. It's also not uncommon to see them prowling about on their own, however, if you squash one its mates always seem to know and come looking. They are also extremely aggressive and best left alone at all times.

Here is a link to some interesting photographs and data about these little buggers you might find interesting.

He he, great. Is that a relative of the bullet ant from South America? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera

I also the love the idea of a pain index for stings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmidt_Sting_Pain_Index

Oh, am I lucky that the meanest insect here are mosquitos. And malaria is not known.

Honey bees are getting rare (it becomes a problem for the orchards) and wasps are nicely under control.

Oh it's lovely to live above the 50th latitude.

I wouldn't hang around the Airports Gwen. Most countries get the same thing. Also the warmer weather we are getting may enable the malarial mosquitos to live longer when they disembark.

I know and it is expected that other diseases will be imported to.

But after nearly every winter those bugs are dead.

That is true , but for how long. I have heard of Malaria cases reported to have been caused by the invaders getting too comfy near lakes where people go fishing. I wonder how tolerant of temperature mosquito's are , and if global warming could take us there anytime soon.

It used to exist in the south of Europe and England's south marshlands.

In the beginning of the 20th century they were able to ban the disease from our continent. You can be sure that global warming will have it's effect as several extra types of mosquito's can survive if it's just 1° warmer.

There are more than 20 types of mosquito's known that can spread this disease.

I think you mean 'irradicate' (or something like that) instead of 'ban' - EU politicians do all sorts of stuff , but I don't think getting Mosquito's to follow orders is one of them ! I get confused using English myself - If I ever tried to speak French/Flemmish (or pretty much anything else) chaos would ensue.. What is the language(s) used in Belgium - knowing I am in the UK you will understand my shameful lack of knowledge on such things. Hang on , I just found a place to educate myself a bit.

As you say , the big question is 'how long until Mosquito's feel at home in Northern Europe'.

Last minute thought - 'bannish'.

Well they really managed to ban malaria from the swamplands in the south.

It has even come that far that we don't know anymore that malaria was a common disease in Europe (southern swamp regions)

It was before WW I so we even didn't dream about the EU and Brussels was only a little city in the center of Belgium.

We speak Flemish, comparable with Dutch but sounding much nicer. (my mother tongue)

French, at least they think that it is French but the French do not agree. (3.6 million)

And German, in the far east 30000 people are native german speaking.

A very interesting website on countries is the CIA info listing, really nicely grabbed and presented in a clear way.

and very accurate: "cool summers; rainy, humid, cloudy"

Dank u vriendelijk .

Some years back a nephew of mine came to me for help with his school project on dangerous creatures. Most of his fellow class mates had gone for tigers, lions, sharks, snakes etcetera and when he told me this I sad how about a creature that is more dangerous and kills more than all those combined. His eyes lit up and you could see him thinking what could be more dangerous than any of those let alone all of them combined?

The answer is of course is the female Anopheles mosquito which is responsible for spreading the various Plasmodium parasites that cause malaria. His teacher was tickled pink and he got the highest mark in his class.

I liven in Papua New Guinea for a year in the early 1980s and malaria is a real problem there. There are actually several types of malaria that vary considerably in symptoms and lethality. While in PNG I did some work for the World Health Organization, WHO, who were looking into the treatment and development of a vaccine for malaria. Evidently there are a couple of things that are making malaria really difficult to diagnose and treat.

1. Firstly, there is a type that some people can never completely eradicate from their system and even though they are symptom free they still have the parasite present in their bodies.
2. Secondly, some of the parasites have become very adept at hiding and unless you test for them during a very small window in their life cycle you will never detect them. I am not 100% sure and it was a long time ago, but, if I remember correctly they hide out in places like the liver, kidneys and spleen so testing the blood will not reveal their presence.

This all means that there could be many people that are living in regions where the appropriate transmitting vector is not present that are carriers of malaria. If global warming turns out to be a reality and it certainly looks like it is, we are likely to see spontaneous outbreaks of malaria in areas that have been historically clear of the disease.

Malaria is certainly something that the Australian health authorities are concerned over as there are large patches of the country that are known to harbour the mosquitoes that transmit the disease. I think the only thing that has saved us so far is the sparse nature of the population in the regions where the appropriate mosquitoes are common. However, Sydney has already warmed by 1° C over the last 50 years so we are definitely headed in the wrong direction.

Lived in Darwin for 6 years. Got bitten by a Bull Ant but we called them Inchmen. Hurt like a paperwasp sting. Hurt for Days. My wife got attacked by several thousand Fire Ants ( Red or Orange. Very,very small. Only 1mm or 2 mm long). It was just on dusk when we were out in the garden when she started screaming , I turned around and she's going crazy, She yelled ANTS and we ran for the indoor shower. Clothes and all. She had 2 days off work she was that badly bitten. Got savaged by midges at Buffalo creek, that was one day off.

Loved Darwin.

Hi geomech,

I must admit that I loved working in and around Darwin as well. They have a different attitude up there. Everybody works really hard but they don't get totally wrapped up in it like people elsewhere. In the top end people work to live rather than live to work and enjoy having a good time.

I was lucky and got the best of both worlds. I lived in Adelaide but got to spend one to two weeks each month in Darwin. The company paid all the expenses and put me up at what was then the Darwin Sheraton Hotel in Mitchell street. Not a bad place to spend about half your time. Especially when somebody else is paying.

I remember putting in a computer system for the department of defense that was part of their communication network. When I was doing the initial site survey I explained that the propensity for lightning and severe weather could be a real problem but they wanted to do it as cheaply as possible. I tried my best to convince them that this was a critical part of the communications network and sticking it in a room plugged into a normal power outlet was not the best idea. They were really adamant about the short cuts and just wouldn't take my advice. That was until mother nature stepped in and gave me a helping hand by hitting the building the computer was to go in with a direct hit from a lightning bolt. Ever single piece of electronic and electrical equipment in the building was completely knackered. An hour later I got a message from the base commander that I could have whatever it took to ensure that this never happened again.

We ended up building a specialized room with uninterruptible power supply dedicated air conditioning, Faraday cage lining, generator backup, fiber optic and opto isolated lines for all signals in and out of the room, etcetera. The computer ran better than clockwork and without the slightest problem for about 3 ½ years, when suddenly, the date and time went haywire. After some considerable head scratching and a reboot we eventually found the problem. There was an internal dedicated 30 bit register in the CPU that kept count of the number of ticks the machine had been running since it was last booted. There are 10 ticks to a second so after 2³⁰ ticks or 3.4 years the counter would overrun and stuff up the date and time. Apparently the designers had never envisaged a system running for that length of time without ever having to be restarted. It was eventually decommissioned a couple of years later but the machine was only ever booted twice in its operational life.

I do miss going to Darwin, especially around this time of the year when it's cold.

Gidday masu,

Originally went to Darwin for about a year but ended up staying for 6 years. House, wife and two kids later we decided to leave. Your not wrong about the attitude of Territorians, layed back and know how to party but when the chips are down, watch out, irrepressible. People would really go out of their way to give a hand.

At one stage when we had a new born (2 weeks old) I slipped up to the local Video shop for a Chick flick (pret-a-porter-- (worst movie ever made)) to make the wife happy and I got pulled over by the Local Police for speeding (83 in a 60 zone). When I told the cops that my licence had expired and the rego on the car had also expired it looked a bit dismal. They asked why. Told them the speeding was because I was that worried that the wife would figure i was gone and the element of surprise would be gone that i didn't notice the zone change from 80km to 60km. The licence and the Rego was due to lack of money (had two part time jobs). First day off for two weeks. And I had a 2 week old and surprise for the wife. After they explained that i was up for about $1000 in fines and towing bill and loss of licence for 3 months, I nearly fainted i was that spun out. Took pity on me and told me I had 3 days to get Licence and rego paid or the summons would be in the mail. That could of ruined my life and my marriage. I would of lost both jobs and the missus would of killed me. All for the worst movie known to man. Well it was pretty stupid to let the licence and rego expire but as you might realise that your a bit fuddled when you have your first child. Good police. Have to be nice to people with 9mm Glocks.

That was the best thing about Darwin. Electrical storms. Beautiful

Sorry you had to sent time in Adelaide .

Did you see the weather for today Thursday 21^st June 07? Darwin's maximum today was only 23° C and it has been pouring with rain in the middle of the dry season. I can never remember it getting that cold in the middle of the night let alone having a maximum that low and the rain is unprecedented.

It was the coldest June day on record and the second coldest maximum and minimum ever recorded in Darwin and some people are insisting that there is nothing wrong with the climate and there is no such thing as climate change.

Is that a typo or what? Did you really mean 23º C as being cold?

What's the normal max June temp for Darwin? For us here in Atlanta, cold is < 4º C.

Somehow I just can't equate 23º with cold. I guess it's a relative thing though.

-John

Yes, it's a relative thing. 24ºC is my comfort limit, just wearing casual clothes. Any lower and I have to reach for my jacket.

In most parts of the Philippines, 25ºC is highly unusual for the middle of the day at any time of the year. If I lived in Baguio City (5100 ft above sea level), I'd probably get used to 15ºC weather such that 24ºC would be uncomfortably hot.

I once attended a seminar in Switzerland and we had dinner at a mountaintop restaurant (I wouldn't call it that but that's the nearest description I could come up with). It was so cold and the wind was blowing and cutting straight through my jacket. It was just a short 20 meter walk from the car to the building but I was shivering violently by the time I got in.

One guy (a local), however, was in a thin shirt, partly buttoned, no jacket and he was walking around as if he was in the sunshine!

Yup, it's a relative thing!

In South Africa a guy gave me a lift in his car. It was their Winter - he had a huge fluffy jumper on , and the car heating was going full blast. It was mid-day , and you could have fried an egg on the dash. I was melting. As the mines over there know well , it's all down to conditioning (HVAC , and body conditioning).

Trust me, I've been to Oz in June, I was walking around Batemans Bay in a T shit and shorts, sweating, but all the locals had coats on.

...you were in a T-WHAT??