Burnt Outlet Revisited

no one mentioned the cause? "a loose connection regardless of age will do all the damage you describe. it could have simply been a bogus plug that would have cooked in any receptacle"<my quote

Along with a multimeter and a jiggler every toolkit should have a non-contact infrared thermometer, for under 30 bucks you can easily spot and isolate this type of failure in less time than it takes to post (and repost) on CR4.

In the original Burnt Outlet thread Oscarphilips posed:

"OK, the only reason I responded is because I feel this point is important ... how do the code writers expect the general public to know not to plug a cord connected heater of this size into a 15 ampere outlet, and how does the general public even recognize a 15 ampere outlet?"

I agree the manufacturer (aside from product quality) should be more liable for their product and assure the public it cannot be used where it should not be used. In the case of the heater, Oscar pointed out that the heater was a continuous duty product and would draw significant amperage while on. I think these units should be equipped with a 20 amp plug (you know them as looking like a standard 3 pronged 120v plug but one of the prongs will be sideways. A 20 amp plug will have a T receptacle than could accommodate either 20 or 15 amp devices plugged into it. A 15 amp receptacle will look like a standard 3 prong receptacle and accept those devices that do not have high amp continuous operation (like a lamp).

Oscar is right, there is a flaw in the rules of making devices and they should be corrected before people get hurt. The onus should be squarely put on the manufacturer of devices that exceed a level of continuous duty that would be unsafe for the standard 15 amp plug. Home owners will not make the distinction unless they can only plug into 20 amp plugs because they are the only receptacles that will work period. Maybe some fire department will get hot on this idea or insurance company.

slow down, I don't think you get it, a 20A receptacle is just that, a receptacle rated to handle a continuous 20 amp current flow.so it will handle 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc. there is no receptacle rated to match 12.5 exactly.

I understand. The receptacle is not the problem, it is the device. Oscar went on to further explain:

"I would classify your heater as a continuous load, so the branch circuit should have an allowed ampacity of not less than 125 percent of that load, or 12.5 amps (from rely #5) * 125% = 15.625 amps; so

• a 15 ampere circuit would be inadequate §210.19(A)(1)(a), and
• a 15 ampere rated receptacle would be inadequate §210.21(B)(2)."

With a proper 20 amp plug on a device that has high amperage on continuous duty, there will be no mistake about where to plug the unit. A DIYer will still be able to use 14 gauge wire and a 20 amp receptacle alas. But at least someone would not be able to plug it into most outlets found in houses. The rules for industrial devices is very different but should be the same for devices used in residential houses.

Actually, neither. The fault lies with the NEC wording, a piece of fixed equipment; i.e., hard-wired, is considered a continuous load, while a piece of portable equipment is not (never mind that either piece could be left on "continuously" for more than 3 hours).

Unfortunately if heater manufacturers were forced to put on a 20amp plug most homeowners couldn't plug them in, the result would be that the manufacturers would simply cut the current back to 11 Amps to allow the use of a 15 Amp plug/outlet. Worst still, our uneducated DIYer will simply purchase a 20 Amp outlet and replace the 15 Amp one. Another Darwin Awardee in the making.

Also not only would homeowners replace the 15 amp socket with a 20 amp, but if they were cheap and had some "ingenuity" they would take a pair of pliers and bend the one blade of the plug so that it formed the parallel shape of the 15 amp plug.

Somehow electricity draws "Darwin Awardee's" like lights to bugs and sweaty skin to a mosquito. Unfortunately scratching it just makes it get worse with little relief.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Not everyone agrees with that:

http://www.bobvila.com/posts/82844-15-amp-outlets-in-a-20-amp-circuit?page=1#.Usw66tJDuuk

The case as described was really a 15 amp (14 gauge wire) service with a 20 amp breaker creating the first problem and a no/no if OscarP is correct. The second no/no, as I see it, was that the device was under-rated but that was likely because it was portable. As such it had a standard 120 volt 15 amp plug and no rules were necessarily broken by the manufacturer. When I worked in a lab, portable lab heaters were equipped with specialized plugs on 120 volt but could only be used at certain outlets. I never understood why until later but a lab code is more stringent than a residential wiring code. All portable devices in the lab were considered continuous duty. My background is not in electrical but I would err on the side of caution when it came to using portable devices. It has been cold recently in our area and many portable heaters are in use. But how does one know when to use a 20 amp plug if the manufacturer sends it out with a 15 amp plug? I think that is the point OscarPhilips was making.

This posting is not intended as a personal attack on you or anyone else.

and

Most of your posts in the past have been extremely good and helpful to the OP's.

Hey Old Salt,

WTF? Were you a lawyer or maybe a Judge before you became a firefighter? OK, I admit that I scanned over most of the jumping to conclusions in the innumerable responses and missed some details. And you seem to always give good answers, so let me be clear in my next statement that I intended no harm to you or anybody else that may have responded with nonsense. I simply get tired of all the misfits responding with their useless babble. There seems to be no shortage.

I never qualified myself as an expert and I really don't care if anybody takes my advise or not. In fact, I have grown tired of this mockery of a blog.

I think I'll go home and burn down my house out of spite. Excuse me for living!

NotUrOrdinaryHoe-

I personally did not want to invoke a response like your most recent. This blog can only be as good as people, such as you and I, make it. Yes, if all the misfits, idiotic and deceitful persons could be eliminated it would be a great blog. Fortunately they are a small minority and most are intelligent, helpful and nice people who want to assist another one as best they can. The blog is only as good as the participants make it. As with you sometimes I'm sure, I become extremely frustrated with some of the content of it.

Also WTF! I was not a lawyer or judge prior to becoming an engineer and also a volunteer firefighter. I'm just another guy who tries to make the world a little better here on earth until I breathe my last breath on earth. As I see it I post many more that are not good answers than those that are good. I often see where I could have said something so it is more understandable, more accurate, etc. Many times I regret submitting any answer at all but I will stand by any of them until someone shows me where I was wrong or leads me to a better understanding. I too am tired of the misfits and babble although some others think I am one of them.

Please do not reduce your participation in this blog. You have a lot to continue to contribute and it would be a loss to others to have you leave.

Please don't burn your house out of spite. 80% of the firefighters in the USA are volunteer and we all have many other things to do in our lives. Besides it is a very disturbing feeling when I see what people go through when they have lost all their possessions and keepsakes. The hard part to me is to see what it does to the people and not the destruction.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Well... that certainly contributed allot to this forum.

North by 60-

Well...it certainly contributed a lot to this forum. I answered a posting that was directed to me. The reply was done this way instead of by direct CR4 mail because the original was observed to any, and possibly all, participants of this blog. Therefore if anyone had any concerns or interest in his original posting to me they could also share in this reply to it.

No, this is not my preferred way to use this forum but neither is it to make any sarcastic remarks to or about other's postings. Perhaps there is some confusion concerning a "Re: Burnt Outlet Revisited" and "Re: A Question About 3-Phase Delta". My memory is certainly not perfect, very very far from that, but I seem to recall a similar situation there.

Therefore does "Well... that certainly contributed allot to this forum" contribute anything constructive to this forum? Remember you are the one who initiated these. I have no desire to continue this wasteful correspondence initiated by a sarcastic comment. I have neither the time, inclination or desire to waste my energies in this sarcastic manner on dribble and babble.

Good Luck, Old Salt

In your post you stated:

But, I don't think anybody mentioned the root cause. And that was, poor quality control at the factory that molded the original heater plug.

This is a jump, to assume that the factory molded plug was bad. After some 53 posts in that thread, we never did find out what the real problem was. The original poster, DirtyPhoenix, has only ever posted to this web site 3 times, all in relation to the original Burnt Outlet discussion.

His posts we learned

• Year and half ago a new outlet on its own breaker was installed
• The landlord paid a licensed electrician to do the work
• Last week the posted smelled smoke and noticed the outlet and front of cord were "burnt" and really hot.
• The posted noticed that the breaker is 20amp, the outlet is 15amp, and the wire is 14 gauge.
• The posted used the outlet to run a register type space heater in the winter, so it sees a bit of use and
• heater is 12.5 amps and 1500 watts

The original posted never provided any additional information or assessment of the actual appliance cord or plug.