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White Phosphorus

01/17/2014 9:31 AM

Somebody please explain the science to me here. How is it that a piece of white phosphorus can even survive being in the ocean; and, then wash up on the beach, only to ignite from the little bit of sweat in the guy's jeans pocket?


http://www.thelocal.de/20140115/man-mistakes-white-phosphorus-for-amber-north-germany/

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#1

Re: White phosphorus

01/17/2014 10:42 AM

Don't know for sure, but perhaps it has to do with the rate of heat dissipation. If it dried after being in the sea, where heat would be dissipated by the large ocean mass. Sweat would result is less ability to get rid of the heat generated.

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#2

Re: White phosphorus

01/17/2014 10:55 AM

Oxidation.

I suspect that the phosphorus was laying in the tide, and still wet; not laying dry, up on the beach.

http://www.chemicool.com/elements/phosphorus.html

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#3

Re: White phosphorus

01/17/2014 11:12 AM

Easy: "White phosphorus is only slightly soluble in water and it can be stored under water. White phosphorus is only safe from self-igniting when it is submerged in water." --Wikipedia

Also, with a 30 °C ignition temperature, being in the guy's pocket may have provided the warmth needed for self-ignition.

BTW: Phosphorous bombs are one of the most heinous and inhumane things we have invented, designed to maim with great suffering...just horrible.

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#7
In reply to #3

Re: White phosphorus

01/18/2014 5:59 AM

GA

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#4

Re: White phosphorus

01/17/2014 11:22 AM

The most stable form of Phosphorous (P) is PO4 or phosphate. When Phosphate enters the water it dissolves and takes on an ionic form. The compound phosphate will have a form written as (PO4)+3. The superscript is meant to indicate is now in the ionic form and the 3 is the valance. It would be very rare to find any pure phosphorous as P. It is very reactive. If you expose phosphorous to air it will react quickly with the oxygen to glow or ignite. That is why if you have a pure form of phosphorous it is unstable in your pocket. Your sweat may contain enough oxygen or reactive substances. Phosphorous in water has an ionic form. It is a very unstable element and can be found in many forms but in water it is quite stable as an ion. It is similar to any other salt that dissolves in water such as NaCL-->Na+ + Cl- , Both are very reactive forms of a cation (+) and an anion(-). Phosphorous has a valance of 3 and is seldom found as pure phosphorous.

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#5

Re: White Phosphorus

01/17/2014 12:10 PM

White phosphorus is pyrophoric - ignites spontaneously in air. Hence it is stored under water or oil. Leave it in air and it will ignite. I don't think the sweat has anything to do with it. More likely the seawater was absorbed by his clothing and hence exposed the phosphorus to air. What on earth is a piece of white phosphorus doing in the ocean?

P.S. The other main allotrope of phosphorus ("red phosphorus") is much less reactive and stable in air up to about 300C.

P.S.S. Just followed your link - now I see why it was in the sea - a remnant from WW2.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: White Phosphorus

01/17/2014 1:34 PM

I was confusing the facts in my mind, and was really thinking of the reaction of sodium in water. However, the previous post here is probably the most plausible for this situation, that it never was truly dry, and dried out in the guy's pocket to the point that it ignited.

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#8

Re: White Phosphorus

01/18/2014 6:51 AM

Most probably the place mentioned is Peenemunde, well worth a visit if you are a world war 2 buff.

See here:-

Bombing of Peenemunde

It was actually in communist east Germany until the East collapsed in 89. I visited it in the summer of 2005, really, really interesting.....

Peenemunde was the "Space Coast, Florida or Edwards Air-force base/Area 51" of Nazi Germany. Many of their important (flying) weapons were developed and tested there, the V1 and the V2 for example.

(The V3 appears not to have been developed there, probably due to its size. See:- V3)

The Bombs often used by the Allies to stop weapon production often contained this chemical and some hit the sea and broke up or have now rusted through.

The sea has kept it cool and free of oxygen for the last 70 odd years.....now people accidentally gather it and stupidly put it in their pockets!! Now its free of water and has plenty of oxygen....

Furthermore, putting it in an ignited state back in water just makes the reaction worse! It needs to be buried in sand to extinguish it, where of course some of it survives even to this day on/under the beach, waiting for a kid with a bucket and spade......

Sadly, there is also a lot of Amber in the area, due to an underwater petrified ancient forest shedding it. The Amber and the phosphorus look very very similar to the untrained eye on the beach and occur in the same area.....which is why there are warnings in many languages along ALL of the beaches to ONLY gather Amber in a steel bucket with a layer of sand using steel tongs......children should not be allowed to even start....

Nobody reads the signs!!!

...and if you don't bother to read the signs.......DANGER!!

I personally would NEVER take any children on those beaches, ever.....the sea is also full of other chemicals as the Allies threw all of Nazi Germany's bombs, left over, all into the Baltic and made the problem even worse.

UXO all over!!!!

See here for a Nazi Sea Mine being cleared by a controlled explosion!!:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xlipe3qpWk

There is a crack team of German bomb disposal experts who air to remove or blow up a lot of munition each year. Sadly they had a serious accident a few years ago, they blew up a small bomb, but unknown to them a huge consignment of ordnance was hidden under it in the sand, several divers were killed if I remember correctly....I was unable to find that video.....see it on the TV.....

See also:-

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/two-women-injured-after-touching-wwii-phosphorus-on-german-beach-a-829516.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/dangers-of-unexploded-wwii-munitions-in-north-and-baltic-seas-a-893113.html

I hope this is interesting and explanatory enough for you.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: White Phosphorus

01/18/2014 3:19 PM

Peenemunde played a large part of James Michener's Space. Werner Von Braun and all that...

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: White Phosphorus

01/18/2014 4:47 PM

Absolutely correct!

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: White Phosphorus

01/20/2014 8:09 AM

I was unaware of the V3 project. The link you referenced doesn't make it clear, was it a multistage gas gun like the one Gerard Bull was building for Saddam?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: White Phosphorus

01/20/2014 2:05 PM

YUP!!

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#9

Re: White Phosphorus

01/18/2014 7:50 AM

Let me go find my chemistry books from high school.... I know I did this in a chemistry class!

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