Code and Forum Advice

I don't know. Despite the conversational nature and disagreements, this is a pretty decent forum for tech questions, in that, the GAs are usually a good launching point for whatever project it is.

I put the responsibility squarely on the person that uses the internet to find answers to questions, to figure out what information is accurate. Otherwise, the door would be open for the owners of internet chat forums, to be held liable for any comments made by the members....and we wouldn't want that.

do think supporting an idea of shared loads on a single circuit is the correct thing to do, regardless of liability?

I think that if a person asked the question on a dog grooming forum, they would get expert answers from professional electricians, and that nobody should do anything, (potentially dangerous), based on a post from a stranger, and should use any advice as a starting point in seeking technical verification.

I'd trust you with my next brain surgery, it says "guru" right next to your name

I'll do it!

On the internet, "experts" are lurking in every corner.

At least on CR4, we take turns being wrong.

I think that anybody who comes here looking for advice on electrical wiring is either cheap or a fool, or both.

My biggest problem with most posters is they NEVER explain either their qualifications, nor their real intentions.

cccove is a perfect example. He never explains his ability, skills or qualifications.

He begins by admitting that he's cheap.

He admits he's going to disregard the manufacturer's recommendation of a dedicated circuit, which probably is grounds for his insurance company to deny any claims of damage. To make matters worse, he performs and unauthorized modification to the wiring, another big no, no should a claim ever arise.

Finally he's going to use a switch he's not sure will work, but is willing to try if he gets some encouragement from the "experts" on an anonymous forum.

Then he gets snooty when he doesn't get the affirmation he's looking.

"My biggest problem with most posters is they NEVER explain either their qualifications, nor their real intentions."

Oh so very true.

I resisted my usual "What color is the house?" question, my prompt for the OP to tell us more about what is really going on. Doesn't matter what is going on, he had a bad idea that he wants to bring to life.

I posted my response here on the other thread. I just love to see guys come here, ask dumb questions, then get their panties in a bunch when we don't stroke them.

Why can't they be like we are, perfect in every way.

The laws in the California Contractors exam have no relevance in the rest of the world. As in international forum we reach areas that may as yet have any standards or codes.

The OP maybe just someone trying to do the best with what he or she has available to him. To make a better life for himself, family and neighbors. In situation like this the OP is most likely going to make some attempt at it. Better to have some advice then none.

As long as we put the information out there its up to OP to take heed. To way the benefits over the hazards.

At lease now he has some idea of the hazards.

just to be clear. being from Calif or anywhere else in itself doesn't qualify me to have opinions on electricity. . however going to college and taking courses on it as well as having a license to work as a contractor for over 20 years puts me in a place where I feel comfortable to respond to basic questions on electrical safety. if that isn't up to your grade, don't read me, I have no problem with selectivity here

I have an opinion about electricity.

I'll replace a defective light switch, after being certain that the circuit is de-energized.

And electric water heaters don't scare me.

Beyond that I WON'T TOUCH ANYTHING. Period. I call a licensed, journeyman wireman electrician.

Plumbing, painting, planting, fencing, no problem. Electricity? Nope!

I can't remember exactly how my great uncle phrased it to me as a young boy... it was something like:

"Electricity is the ever-ready force, always waiting for any opportunity to remind the careless of the power that it has."

I never forgot that... one of those little pearls of wisdom intended to grease the skids of our lives.

my college professor told us a zillion times, "electricity never forgets, but you do and when you do electricity will remind you".

Depending on which data compilation sources you choose, most of them list an electrician as between the third and seventh most dangerous occupation.

I know several electricians (I believe many of us do), and they are, in general, pretty smart people with a deliberate method to just about everything they do.

This site has a thought provoking list... included in the 25 most dangerous professions are Suicide Assailant, Prostitute, Narcotics Dealer, and U.S. President. Electricians didn't even make the top 25 on this one.

I wonder what kind of questions they ask, on the "suicide assailant" application?

Any prior experience would be considered a failure.

Anybody with a will to live, will not be considered for this position.

Let's not forget, poor household electric wiring cause a large percentage of home fires. So it is not just the amateur electrician's ass on the line. If it was, I would be less adamant about these clueless fools hiring a professional to do the work.

My father was an electrician for over forty years. I have been an electrical engineer for over forty years. He gave me a piece of advice that I in turn pass on to any newcomer.

"With electricity, you only get to make one mistake"

My standard answer is "Electricity is something that happens to other people."

I'll do a lot around my house, including replacing plugs, and installing lights and fans and whatnot. I'll run the wires. But when that new circuit or breaker has to get installed and go live? I'm calling my electrical engineer friend, on account of he knows what he's doing.

The reoccurring problem I have are the OP that know buzz words and acronyms but not their real meanings. What bothers me about this is not that they get the terms wrong, we all make mistakes, but that their ability to identify and communicate what they have is the only information we have to go by. When one of us asks for a clarification or ask a relevant question, far too often a badly bruised ego or the text equivalent of a vacuous stare appears instead of a clarification. If I cannot trust their stated symptoms or that they will not understand an answer, I will not give an answer no matter what I think might be the actual condition.

Hi Fredski,

In my reply I meant in general.

First I want you to know that I appreciate your contributions here. You provide valued answers, especially when it comes to your field(s) of expertise. You helped me out also.

Without getting personal, it might be more a cultural or educational difference, sometimes, the answers are interpreted as arrogant, provocative and certainly off topic. It is a way of expressing moods or feelings, and I get tempted to it too.

My opinion however is that it brings the value of this forum down, sometimes to the "F" words user's level. I put it differently: If I were to pay for the bandwidth, storage and maintenance costs of this forum, I would expect more contributing answers and less off topic and I would also have the rules enforced for abuse.

But again, abuse evaluation has more to do with upbringing and showing respect, rather than expecting respect. You have entrusted us with your scope and trade.

Others are or have been jacks of all trades, like e.g. maintenance managers of refineries or factories, qualified by degree or having worked up their way or having gathered a lot of experience by having made the sum of their mistakes. Others are designing systems or push what we call evolution forward. Others perhaps have written or contributed to regulations and those codes, that this forum almost worships.

How I see it is that many of us are or almost are "fin de carriere" and I consider it a honor and duty to exchange my knowledge to a next generaton, just as we had the opportunity to learn the good and also bad things by ourselves, be it by education or on the field.

At the end, what I learned here (US and Canadian code) is that everything has to be correct to get a certificate of occupancy and afterwards with that certificate in the pocket, the sky or hell is the limit. Where I come from, engineers can overrule some code specs, they take full responsibility for their mistakes and pay the price if it goes wrong. Lots of process related actions or applications are not even mentioned in regular code books. What I want to say is that common sense needs to be able to bypass the code in case it doesn't apply.

Here an example: In the Caribbean and South Florida, almost no one has a basement. A rule is that before you can pour the floor slab, all the electrical and plumbing pipes should be in place. Understandable.

But: with a basement underneath, all the studs and concrete casings are in place and putting these pipes in there is idiotic, knowing that a core drill lets you do it more precisely and time saving. Result: All the pipes are now 18 inches too low and hindering normal work in the basement.

That is just one example of the code working backwards. That is also one of the reasons why the US is decennia behind in innovation for the John Doe' ers.

Bureaucracy and codes is good for standard applications but slow down improvements.

I also realize that I am a guest in your hemisphere and my criticism may be strange and ungrounded in this culture. Please do not take offense. Appology offered. Best Regards. D.

I like CR4 and respect many of the answers posted. However, If I need legal advice I go to a licensed lawyer, if I need medical advice I go to a licensed doctor, if I need engineering advice I would go to a licensed engineer. Searching the internet and landing on CR4 is not or should not be construed as the final answer or complete answer. It is easy enough to spend a few dollars and get the information you want from a source you can respect. I am not trying to disrespect anyone giving internet advice or better opinion. I would hope that anyone using this vehicle (the internet in general) would understand it is loaded with opinion and not always correct. How many times have we seen good answers being given to wrong advice?

In my opinion, if you are really sick go to the hospital and stop trying to diagnose yourself. Dangerous advice can be found anywhere but at least if you hire a professional the onus may be then be passed to that professional. A hands on professional will be in a better position to assess the situation. Of course fees apply or else a lot of us on this form would not be able to have earned a living.

I think it is valuable to be able to get advice from disinterested 3rd parties that have some experience with the situation one is dealing with....No vested interest gives an objective opinion, and straight shooter advice in common sense, easy to understand language, is reassuring and reduces stress, leading to clearer thinking....When someone is not qualified to do something on their own, I think we have a duty to tell them so...If they then decide to proceed on their own, it's on them...at least they know there is danger lurking, and where it may lie....In any case they are better off then they were when they started....Sometimes people don't understand the complexities involved, and in some cases are then discouraged from proceeding on their own....in this case we may have saved someones life...or some money.....or both......I consider this site and the internet in general to be a valuable resource in gaining knowledge of just about everything....but it's no substitute for knowledge, and good advice from a professional....

"Sometimes people don't understand the complexities involved..."

Ya mean like a poster asking "How do I make ceramic tile?" or "Please tell me all about waste water treatment...... URGENT!!!"

Yeah, it's sort of difficult to impart that sort of education on an internet discussion forum.

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^{Okay, this comment will prolly get zapped.}

Dear Fredski & Lyn,

I have to agree with you both fully and wholeheartedly.

I also agree with some of the comments from others here, but not all, probably less than 50%......

I do not see a way to "fix" CR4 on this point, sadly.

I sincerely hope there is a way......the On and Off Topic are the nearest possibility, sadly, when we mark ourselves Off Topic, we get automatically 5 negative points .....I can see a possible need for 3 classes instead of two.....

The dumb Guys here are also often the least good mannered or thankful I personally find.....which is why you opened this blog in the first place!

To me that further demonstrates with these people, a seriously bad/poor upbringing........the case/person you mentioned being one of the most recent examples that I am aware of....

I don't know whether it helps or not, but with ANY work that I need doing in, on or around my house, be it with water, waste water, electricity or building and woodwork. I used to do it ALL myself, sometimes with the help of a friend or two.

Though nowadays, due to age, I contract the work out to professionals, I WATCH THE WAY THE WORK IS DONE, EVERY SINGLE INCH OF IT!!

If they don't like it (I warn them before they are "hired"), they don't get the job!!!

Many years ago, I had occasionally work done, that had to be re-done properly, simply because I was unable always to be "there"......

It would actually pay a younger, working person to take holiday time to oversee any work to be done, maybe assisting/speeding it up, PROVIDED HE ALSO KNOWS HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE OF COURSE!!!

This is a good blog, I hope some good idea come out of it......

One possible way might be to "ban" someone for such bad manners for a week. If it happens again 2 weeks etc etc etc.....Plus, a note from Admin in the blog telling the rest of us why someone has been banned and for how long. I feel we should be informed so as to keep others on the "straight and narrow"....

Admin to be judge and jury.....

That's just silly.....I think we are a little more sophisticated than that.....

Not really, just look around a bit........you are kidding yourself on that point!!