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Transformers Connected In Series

03/10/2014 4:40 PM

Hi all,

we had a project where we connected 3 transformers of identical type in series (on primary side as well as on secondary side, 150 kW each @ 8 kHz, pulsed with a rectangular shape out of a full bridge). Voltage ratio is 1500 V to 750 V, so we expected 250 V on the secondary side of the middle transformer.

But we had spikes on the secondary side of the middle transformer in the range of several kV killing a FLUKE-multimeter in milliseconds which began to burn.

Is there any experience of the do`s and dont`s in this topology ?

I`ve asked a lot of electronic engineers and most of them didnt see any problem in series-connection.

Thanks

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#1

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/10/2014 5:51 PM

DO learn and understand BEFORE doing these things.

DONT do them without learning and understanding these things.

PAY attention to safety or you will not last long.

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#2

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/10/2014 6:30 PM

Rectangular input voltage shape? What did you expect? A rectangular voltage shape on primary transformer side will give short super high voltage voltage spikes in the secondary side and voltage ratio will NOT be the input voltage times the coil ratio. No. This applies ONLY to sinusoidal AC. Secondary voltage will depend on primary dI/dt and if unloaded, primary side inductance is the only thing to limit it, so, the faster the input voltage rising (or falling) is, the higher the spike on secondary will be. And it's a known Fluke killer. Of course this issue has nothing to do with the series connection. S.M.

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#3

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/10/2014 7:29 PM

Square waves, ouch.

What are you doing exactly, and have you oversized the transformers and diode bridge to take into account the harsh waveform you are using (transformers do not like square waves).

What is the application and what are the transformers? Please tell me you are not using standard 50Hz transformers with iron laminate cores rather than high frequency ferrite cores.

<cringe>

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#4

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/10/2014 10:16 PM

Has anybody, electronic engineers or otherwise, seen any point in the series connection?

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/10/2014 11:07 PM

Sounds like uweka is building an autotransformer out of available parts or to save money rather than buying the correct transformer and has been caught out by the unexpected 50/60Hz distribution-sized transformer response to a non-sinusoidal waveform.

Hopefully more information will be provided to help us answer the original question.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/10/2014 11:19 PM

I can't see the point of it but that doesn't mean that one doesn't exist...

The comments thus far regarding pushing a square wave through a trafo should be heeded by the OP.

Please tell us what this is for OP?

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#7

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/11/2014 12:40 AM

The posts I've read so far are correct. I'm not sure if you're an engineer or a technician - not sure it even matters that much, I guess. From my point, I believe an engineer is taught the "hows" of things; how does a transformer work. A good technician is also taught the "hows", but many are told what they should and shouldn't do, without understanding.

For all the engineers here, sorry to do this, but here we go. Faraday's Law says that if a wire is passed through a magnetic field, a current will pass through the wire. A transformer is a device that has two coils (we're going to use a regular transformer for simplicity sake) which have a core made of either air or iron. For starters, we'll look at one of the coils and we'll examine how it works. A coil is made up of wire (conductor) which is typically coated with an enamel finish as an insulator. The primary side has X turns of wire and the secondary has Y turns. Now we can look at the first turn of the coil. When a current passes through the wire, a magnetic field is produced. As this current collapses, the magnetic field collapses as well (we're creating a changing magnetic field). When the current flows the other way, the magnetic field is reversed. In a sine wave, the magnetic field also looks like a sine wave (matches the electric current). Now imaging a stack turns (a coil), which will produce a much stronger magnetic field. When we kill the current, the magnetic field collapses. When we reverse the current, the magnetic field reverses. Using Faraday's Law, we can place a coil of wire (secondary) near the primary coil (which is creating the magnetic field) and we will see a current on the secondary coil. The more turns in the coil (secondary) the more magnetic fields are passed by and we will get more electric current. As the magnetic fields collapses and grows, the wire will have current collapsing and growing. This is how a transformer works with AC current (sine wave).

Here's what happens when you put a square wave through. When you have a DC current, you only get a response from when the magnetic field moves through the secondary coil. The primary coil go from 0 volts to X DC volts very fast. This makes the the magnetic field jump or spike. This change in magnetic field is imparted on the secondary and you get a current spike. The faster the change in primary voltage, the stronger magnetic field you have and the more magnetic field is passed by the secondary coil, thus making a large amount of current. As the voltage through the primary settles to X VDC, the magnetic field is no longer changing and the current on the secondary will drift to 0. When the voltage in the primary drops to 0, the magnetic field drops (produces a changing magnetic field). The secondary coils create current from the changing magnetic field. Remember that the secondary coil will only create current if the magnetic field is changing.

Now imagine the multiplier effect as you run transformers in series.

I hope this helps you understand why you fried the meter.

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#8

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/11/2014 7:40 AM

It's not the series connection. It's the square wave causing the spikes. That's how an ignition coil works to produce a 15kv spark in a car engine.

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#14
In reply to #8

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/11/2014 6:18 PM

Horace, If you spike a transformer, then put another transformer in series, the spike on the second transformer will be greater. Even though these are step down transformers 2:1, the spike in current on the primary will create a very large and fast changing magnetic field will impart larger current spikes on the secondary.

I'm still trying to figure out what the op is trying to accomplish. Three 2:1 step down transformers in series with an 8khz rectangle wave and a lot of power? The output of the third transformer is going to be a huge spike.

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#9

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/11/2014 8:11 AM

Uweka,

Some of the comments above are partially correct. Don't take them at 100% truth. Few people have real experience of power electronics at the 150kW level.

It is very difficult to tell you the exact cause of the problem because there aren't enough details in your post to analyse the situation. In general it should work as I have done it but the details are important.

Here are a few things to look for.

1- Make sure that the transformers can sustain the volt * seconds you are applying without saturation.

2- Make sure that the transformers' polarities are correct. This could cause one of them to see higher voltage and saturate or produce a higher voltage at the secondary.

3- Leakage inductances (primary and secondary) can cause enormous spikes during switching transients. Control them and add clippers / snubbers if needed. Reduce the di/dt of the IGBTs if possible.

4- Try it at lower voltage first, then increase it so that you can monitor the parasitic effects progressively.

Good luck, and play safe.

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#10

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/11/2014 9:14 AM

Assuming the BH curves of the transformer cores used in your transformers can properly respond to your operating frequency, connecting the transformers in series is should work as expected!

Since there are two possible ways of connecting transformers in series,

1) series aiding

2) series opposing

be sure that they are all properly connected..

Same connections should be true or applies to both the secondary and the primary windings of the transformers.

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#11

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/11/2014 12:22 PM

Your description is fuzzy. A schematic would be a lot better. A rectangular shape from a full bridge? I would expect DC. Are the transformers in series to increase the voltage rating? the power rating? Are they designed for 8kHz? Were the outer secondaries measured? How much voltage was applied to the primaries?

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/11/2014 12:29 PM

lol after the first test, they had no meter to read the other sec's.

Given the apparent lack of knowlege, they are lucky the meter was the only casualty.

150KW ?? wow.

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#13

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/11/2014 12:48 PM

I've been thinking about this, trying to fit the pieces together in my head.

Full-bridge rectified square wave at 8kHz? Sounds like a switching power supply is being built, those are usually used for sensitive electronics as part of an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS).

Voltage step down from 1.5kV to 750V? That's enough 'Electromotive pressure' to destroy anything that could be described as 'sensitive electronics.'

Here in Chiocagoland, we have an electric train system for mass transit ('The L,' short for 'Elevated Train'), and that runs on 800VDC, but there we are talking about electric motors, which do not require 'pure, clean' DC from a switching supply to run them, and in fact, big electric motors tend to 'pollute' the DC they run on because of the power dips and spikes when they start and stop.

I would recommend stepping the voltage down from 1.5kV to 750V while it is still sinusoidal, as that is the best 'flavor' of power to run through transformers, and once you have the voltage at the right level, THEN convert it into an 8kHz square wave and rectify it into high-frequency pulsed DC. After that one RC network to act as a 'low pass filter' should squelch the spikes and dips, leaving you with DC as clear and clean as glacial water off the Bavarian Alps.

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#15

Re: Transformers Connected In Series

03/13/2014 12:06 PM

in doing this, did you consider the transformer polarity?

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