Previous in Forum: Battery Charging Voltage for a Generator   Next in Forum: Selection of an AC Motor to Replace the DC Motor
Close
Close
Close
10 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Member

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Betwixt and Between
Posts: 5

High Voltage Engineering

03/31/2014 12:30 AM

What is the permittivity of mild steel and mica? When I googled it I got the value for permeablity and in some websites I got the permittivity of mild steel as infinity? pls help me to get the value of permittivity

__________________
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 8006
Good Answers: 286
#1

Re: HIGH VOLTAGE ENGINEERING

03/31/2014 1:15 AM

Permittivity is usually used to describe properties of dielectrics. As metals are usually relatively good conductors, the idea of how much capacitance might be developed with a gap filled with a metal compared to a vacuum isn't really all that useful. Likewise, attempting to talk about the ability of a metal to concentrate lines of electrostatic flux isn't all that helpful either.

.

I think it is safe to assume the reference you found suggesting mild steel has infinite permittivity is wrong. Perhaps undefined (true from my perspective at the moment), perhaps imaginary, but not infinite.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#2

Re: High Voltage Engineering

03/31/2014 9:18 AM
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#3

Re: High Voltage Engineering

03/31/2014 9:47 AM

The term permittivity is as inapplicable to metals as the term conductivity is to insulators.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4528
Good Answers: 106
#4

Re: High Voltage Engineering

03/31/2014 10:30 PM

I would have thought steel would have a value of 0, since a dielectric of steel would short out the capacitor giving a capacitance of 0. Or did you mean a mixture of the two? What is your intent?

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chapel Hill, NC (sometimes Otago NZ)
Posts: 120
Good Answers: 1
#5

Re: High Voltage Engineering

03/31/2014 10:32 PM

The problem is that, at zero frequency, permittivity does not really make much sense for a metal in that the charges are so free they just move to the surfaces to cancel the field. This is distinct from a dielectric with fixed charges where the polarization really describes a local condition and permittivity is a local property of the material.

At frequencies in a body large enough for the carriers not to run into the surfaces you can give a local meaning to the polarization in the medium. Damping gives an out of phase term so J dot E is not zero. This is generally written as an imaginary contribution.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 344
Good Answers: 17
#6

Re: High Voltage Engineering

04/01/2014 3:46 AM

Imagine that first you have two metal plates with a slab of metal (steel) between them but separated by an insulating medium between plates and slab. This is equivalent to two capacitors in series.

Now make the insulating layers thinner and thinner. The capacities increase. As the insulation approaches zero, the capacities approach infinity. So by this argument the permittivity of the slab approaches infinity.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 77
#7
In reply to #6

Re: High Voltage Engineering

04/01/2014 8:32 AM

What happens when the thickness of the insulators becomes zero, Auntie?

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 15
#8
In reply to #7

Re: High Voltage Engineering

04/01/2014 4:40 PM

Simple! - Then the permittivity goes "to infinity & beyond!!"

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 8006
Good Answers: 286
#9
In reply to #6

Re: High Voltage Engineering

04/01/2014 5:47 PM

"...Now make the insulating layers thinner and thinner. The capacities increase. As the insulation approaches zero, the capacities approach infinity. So by this argument the permittivity of the slab approaches infinity...."

.

This slight of mind can only be convincingly illusory if you manage to forget (or convince yourself to ignore) the conductive property of metal slab in between.

.

If you don't yet see it, consider: Is it really necessary to have two sheets of insulating medium so as to separate the slab from the plate on both sides?...Wouldn't a similar phenomena occur with only one side of the slab separated by an insulator from one of the plates?

.

Once you admit that a similar increase occurs as thinner and thinner dielectric sheets are compared on just one side of the slab, the flaw should be apparent.

.

Any measurement of permittivity of a dielectric between two plates is like the measurement of permittivity of a dielectric between a plate and a slab in contact with the other plate. In fact, you can just arbitrarily decide where the plate ends and the slab begins, there doesn't even need to be a separation at that point, or even a real plate separate from the slab at all. If you hold the dielectric constant and change the slab plate division, it will become apparent that it does not have infinite permittivity.

.

Alternately you could just use your original set up with two dielectrics (so as to separate both sides of the slab from the plates on either side)and instead of decreasing the thickness of the dielectrics, hold those steady. Just put increasingly thin layers of the slab in. The capacitance will stay roughly the same, but when compared against the permittivity of the vacuum for corresponding decreasing total plate separation, the result will indicate that permittivity of the metal would be highly dependent upon things like the permittivity and thickness of the dielectrics on either side.... which should make you question how appropriate the experiment is to the question.

.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chapel Hill, NC (sometimes Otago NZ)
Posts: 120
Good Answers: 1
#10

Re: High Voltage Engineering

04/01/2014 6:39 PM

Can you give us a context for what you are trying to do? For example, you could make a cermet of materials, including metals if they do not percolate and it will have a well defined polarization and bulk permittivity. Ultimately, you apply a field and see how the medium responds. The definition of permittivity sometimes helps and sometimes is not applicable. Regardless, nature always has an answer.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 10 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

cchaf (2); Crabtree (1); lyn (1); melanie135711 (1); Phaddy (1); PWSlack (1); StandardsGuy (1); truth is not a compromise (2)

Previous in Forum: Battery Charging Voltage for a Generator   Next in Forum: Selection of an AC Motor to Replace the DC Motor

Advertisement