Apprenticeship vs. College Degree

Sure, just like there are some people better suited to studying Symmetrical Components than brain surgery. It takes all kinds...

Absolutely. Everyone is not cut out for the same kind of work. It's a difficult decision to make at a young age, but each person has to decide what they would like to do to support themselves in life, whether a college degree or what kind of a college degree would best help them to achieve their goals, and whether it is worth the cost.

The cost of a college education has skyrocketed. When my daughter was looking at colleges, I noticed that most of the campuses we visited had major construction going on. The abundance of student loans has provided a windfall of income for colleges and has pushed the supply and demand price point for tuition to higher and higher levels.

When there are more and more college graduates competing for a fixed number of jobs, supply and demand drives the value of that college degree (starting pay) to a lower level, and the college graduate is stuck in the middle with a sizable student loan to pay off.

The issue with increased numbers going to college is that the degrees becomes the basic standard and a masters or doctorate is the stand out education standard. people are nearly 30 leaving university with great knowledge in very narrow band and no experience in it. Which may pigeon hole them down the line..

Shorter time in work so greater burden on government coffers in both terms of education costs and pensions on the other end... starting work at a stage of life where family will soon start impacting on work life. in earlier times the graduate in the office put in the big hours, did the donkey work and that sorted the wheat from the chaff.. and at the end of the day will end up learning most of what they need to know on the job anyway..

too much emphasis is on college education & certifications and not enough given to experience and practical learning especially at the early stages of careers...

SolarEagle, I like your combination of practical, hands-on experience coupled with formal education. The thing that I would propose in addition to that is getting the education one needs, not the educational path that some out-for-the-money institution says is necessary.

There are many examples of people who did that and said, "the heck with a degree", i.e. Steve Jobs, Steven Spielberg among others.

Colleges are a money draining drag on a person. They, for the most part, aren't there for the students, they are there to get big, fat and lazy. The Endowments and Trusts of many colleges are enormous and yet still keep charging exorbitant amounts for school. In the last 10 or 15 years ed. costs have risen 72% and the income of people has dropped by 15%. Something is wrong with the picture. We have to change our mindset about what constitutes an "education".

I couldn't agree more....Every competent engineer or mechanic should spend time mentoring an apprentice or two, I have certainly trained my share...One on one full time instruction is the most effective way to teach....You would think there would be more combination working in the field with a master and classroom instruction related to the area you are currently working on, but I've never seen it....The closest is someone going to night school while trying to hold down a full time job, and I would venture one rarely meshes with the other in real time....With the technological landscape changing so fast, nearly every profession requires some ongoing training to keep current in your field...So there should always be some training I think associated with your job....If this isn't the government's job, then who?

"So there should always be some training I think associated with your job....If this isn't the government's job, then who?"

Why should "the government" (taxpayers) be responsible for training workers for private industry?

I'm fine with primary education, even college, but after that any value added to the employee should be the "job" of the employer who will reap the benefits of said training.

Two of Deming's 14 points relate to education, and these points are not directed to the government, but to the organization which employs people:

6. Institute training on the job. This is a reference to job specific training. Train your people to skills you need. Don't depend on an uncertain supply from schools or unions.
13. Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement. This is a long term effort to improve your work force and prepare them for expanded roles and responsibilities. This helps to prepare people for promotion from the inside. (And Deming always meant that this included education in statistical methods so that management could learn to gather useful data and thus learn to make better decisions.)

No matter how you look at it, it's a sad state of affair, all the way around.

College? Isn't that all about American Football?

NO! College is all about learning how to drink, make love, and roll a good tight joint.

Then "Forrest Gump" was unrealistic. Fancy that!

The first phrase a graduate liberal arts major learns is " Do you want to supersize ?".

Do what you like man. If you wanna make heaps of money then don't do engineering, be a businessman.

It is true that those days where engineers could afford houses and nice cars are gone. Pretty much declare bankrupt after you finish uni.

The only benefit I find is that engineers get to do non-routine work while if you assemble and build things, it does get quite tedious and demotivating

It appears you are disenchanted with engineering. I make a good salary and find the work challenging. If you are displeased with your current job then find something in your field that you enjoy. I have respect from my fellow workers, have a good income and all the toys i need or want and a home paid for. It all depends on what you want.

...and be good at American Football...

As you learn how to drink, make love, and roll a good tight joint...

"....engineers regardless of discipline were required to spend at least four years working in the field doing repair service before they are ever allowed to design anything."

I totally agree, maybe not 4 years, but they definitely need to know what it's going to take to repair and maintain their design. Example would be, 28(+) hours to replace a heater core in a Mercedes 450. Why would anybody in their right mind bury a heater core that deep in a car? Unless they have no clue what it's going to take to change one!! And that's only one example. Lord only know how many times I've seen this before. From HVAC units to Commercial Aircraft, most design engineers have no clue.

Philosophically, I agree with you, to some degree. (No pun intended)

4 years may be excessive in some cases and many engineers never "design" anything.

But practical experience is invaluable. I've seen designs by junior engineers that were un-machinable from a single block of metal.

Most students just out of high school aren't mature enough to make life decisions and a couple of years of hard work are the best way to get some smarts. Or, the military.

I've got a 15 year old who lives and breathes paint balling. He gave up football for more time shooting others with paint balls. He says he wants to go to college but has done nothing to prepare for it. He may be better suited to push a lawn mower or join the army. Who knows? He doesn't.

Just be grateful your 15yr old is active outdoors and not sitting in front of a computer killing "Zombies" or Call of Duty! My feeling is electronic gaming is one of the biggest downfalls we're seeing today. The only thing kids today know is how to use a mouse or a joy stick. I take that back, they've lost touch with reality and take real guns and kill fellow student/ people.

AMEN!

We had Post Diploma in Production Engineering course at VJTI well known engineering college in Mumbai, India. It was started by Mr.Alex Miller a British National who had worked as G.M in Ordnance factory. It was two years sandwich course, six months in college and six months in industry. Last six months were devoted for Project work sponsored by industry. Subjects were well selected so as to give practical training to new students, such as Production Processes, Tool Engineering, Machine Design, General Management etc. It was conducted in evenings as all faculty was hired from various fields from industry.

This course was very well received by industry and all the boys got good jobs. I hope this may help you in formulating such vocation in your country.

To each their own, as it has been said. Some people have an aptitude for "book learning" and some don't. Taking up a trade can be just as rewarding as getting a college degree, depends on personal preferences. If everyone gets a degree, then who is going to do the trades?? Trades are just as important to most companies as degrees, as long as the company acutally manufactures something.

I had the opportunity to hire a university graduate as a tradesman, and did. He was much happier with the hands on than the theoretical but did use the latter on occasion, all he needed was the opportunity and someone willing to believe in his capabilities.

Are you saying Machine Design is telling us that our educators and politicians screwed up when they cut classes like wood shop, metal shop, auto shop and even the music programs from our high schools. Who knew!

We all are individuals as such our abilities differ. Some have better abilities to reason where others better at memory or a list of other abilities relating to brain function. Allot of people in the middle.

One can have the intelligence to learn everything that's need to be a brain surgeon. But not have eye hand coordination to do the surgery.

Some interesting replies here, I read them despite being annoyed at the assumption by the OP that apprenticeships lead to manual work while a college degree does not. Almost all of mine and the previous generation in the UK learned our engineering in a hybrid. In my discipline, Structural Engineering, most time was spent on the drawing board but with a day off per week for the technical college till I was twenty one, then, when I finished my National Service, night school. It was taught in the manner of trade training but it didn't miss things out. I was astounded to find when I arrived here in the USA that college students would spend a whole semester on differential equations, we were introduced to them, solved a few and moved on; the lecturer said we probably would not use them again so they just "walked us down the road once" so that we wouldn't be blind if we did have to solve one.

An interesting sidelight, the company used to hire from the top grads at a local highly rated engineering college, they paid them good starting money but they weren't ready to start right away, they had tools, now we had to teach them to "make" things with them. We had a young man who started on the drawing board and went to the night school of the same college. He got his degree and asked for his pay to be raised to the same as the new grads; alas, the company had a rule against that big a jump in pay, even though he was more valuable than the new grads. His notice went in on the following Tuesday.

My point is that although manual jobs do need "hands on" training, it cannot possibly hurt a more academic subject.

I did not intend to assume that apprenticeships would necessarily lead to manual work. Machine Design did mention (but I didn't in order to be brief) that an apprenticeship with a college degree later (layered on they said) would be more valuable as you said.

My Father told a story about a EE (long since dead) who started with a power company out of college. He knew a transformer symbol on paper, but didn't know what a real one looked like.

From a previous reply: I agree that various shop classes in high school are valuable. Cutting them out may backfire.

Cutting out shop classes backfired very shortly after they did it! That's true both for many individuals, as well as for many industries.

I got my early shop training at home, but that was unusual then, and really rare now. I didn't get formal shop training until I got to College. Fortunately, my college (Cal Poly SLO) required all engineering majors, including my electronics major, to take several metal shop classes. That was the very best thing that could have happened to me! There is no way I would be in my current position without those shop classes. I still do electronics, but I also design and build machines. I've been doing both for over 50 years.

I consider Journeyman to be Equivalent to a Bachelors anyway.

That is absolutely correct. The education system in America has been biased towards pushing graduates towards college, even though vocational training and training in the trades may be far more appropriate. There seems to be a disdain within much of academia towards working with the hands, as if it is a "lesser" aspiration. Of course, many of us know that doing such is far more than just "working with the hands", as it requires knowledge, good sense, logic, and technical skill development in many cases.

We need skilled engineers, as well as other professionals, but was also need just as badly technicans and craftsmen whose contributions are at least as valuable, and more so in many cases.

In addition, many of those people entering college need logic and common sense as well. Too many times, for example, I've seen "engineers" draw up something and ask a machinist to fab it, and on review it would be extremely difficult or almost impossible. Too many of these "engineers" are plagued with the idea that if "I can draw it up, you should be able to make it". So I think many of these people, entering technical studies in college such as engineering need to spend time in the shop actually making things. I was lucky in that I didn't have to, as my dad had me in the shop as a kid, running a lathe and mill at 12, building my first engine at 14, and rebuilding a car to drive at 16. I was even more blessed during this time as he hepled me build my common sense doing so, so I wouldn't stick my fingers in where they didn't belong, and not try to do something that obviously would not work.

There are those who were born "doers" and there are those who are "dreamers" and those that are strong both ways.. Having a very good mechanical dexterity I would say can easily will excel as doers and therefore will be greatly benefited by a vocational, hands-on training.. While the dreamers that exhibits or possesses a very good analytical minds can continue pursuing higher education and be successful in whatever chosen field of endeavors. Those that are lucky, possessing both qualities, can make a decision depending on his/her's economic status which to go, and may or will be successful either way..

As I have stated to my peers I graduated Suma Cum Laude from the School of Hard Knocks. I have been and always will be a gearhead with 35 years in industrial maintenance (all vo/tech and OJT) I can say that there are easier paths to take BUT few as rewarding as being able to bring a production plant to life using all your skill bases and learning new ones as you go, I have dealt with engineers that live "in theory" and don't have a clue about reality (ok to be fair I've dealt with "mechanics" that are not quite suited to the profession either). But I have in my career been fortunate enough to have dealt with folks whom are gifted with book smarts and common sense with a mechanical background to be envious of and have learned volumes from them and hopefully passed on a few thing myself, Having said that I would like to say GET THE DEGREE while you work in your chosen field, hands on, I wish I had as it would not have left as many hard feelings in my trail as it has.

Apprenticeship programs was the way to go at the turn of the century. This was the height of the industrial revolution when things were made by American labor in American factories using American machine tools. Today, what would an apprenticeship look like? For one, there would have to be a "master" to learn under. They all died off many years ago. I don't know what skills and trades are still available. I think the building trades would be the only areas open for apprenticeship training. Our economy has gone from an industrial to a service to an information age in just a few short years. If we wanted to get back to a good old fashioned hands-on economy, there wouldn't be anyone qualified to carry the banner. I've seen this before; an engineer with a BS and even a masters, knows all the numbers and theories, but can't relate it to actual hands-on practice. It's the guy in the shipyard or high on the building structure that gets the job done. The apprenticeship is absolutely necessary. No amount of education can ever replace that. When they find a way to 3D print a ship or bridge or building; then the need for an apprentice trained worker will disappear.

Working with ones own hands is an admirable trait. Skills are what defines a culture. The more skills you have. the more cultured you are. Skills are acquired. They have to be useful; serve society. If there is no one left to teach those skills, we become a culture-less society; the beginning of de-evolution.

Wow, didn't anyone here go to a college with a co-op program? That's the best of both worlds, two years of hands-on experience and a four year degree, all in the span of five years. You learn early on whether you like engineering and perhaps exactly which branch of it you wish to pursue, and you may even graduate nearly debt-free thanks to the money earned while on co-op.

Agreed; coop would be good. It wasn't offered at my college when I was there; it would have provided that experience that employers wanted.

From the above posts I understand that there is no workshops attached to engineering colleges. Students are taught only theories. In our college we had workshop with all types of machines such as lathes, milling machines, shaping machine, drilling machines.We had practical sessions every week and we used to operate all machines ourselves so had on hand experience.

See my post #24. On the other hand, that was over 50 years ago, and I have not kept up to date with their current class requirements. I have already set up a trust where much of my value will go to the school with the stipulation that it be used to continue hands-on training.

Hi DKWarner,

Nice to hear that you are supporting school where you taught boys. It is good cause.All the best for your generous contribution for education. My both parent were also teachers in school.

Near every medical college there is a hospital but why no industry or electrical/ mechanical workshop near each engineering college?. What is the use of labs where experiments are done as in chemistry,physics,botany etc. Professional institutions & council of engineering should ask governments not to approve engineering college/ university without adequate workshop facilities and visits to industries including an year of internship like doctors.

When I went to college for the first time (35+ years ago) we had extensive workshop experience. I returned 9 years ago and there was exactly 1 semester in the shop in 4 years, plus a few experiences using the shop for occasional classes. Universities (at least the ones I have knowledge of) are sadly eliminating workshop experience. A bad move.

They had workshops when I went to school, but very few took advantage of them since they weren't required. There's just a lack of emphasis; nobody thinks it's important. I used to teach a basic shop course for pre-engineers in a local university. When they decided they wanted to pay me one hour's pay (since the course was one credit) for what amounted to about ten hours (I usually worked with the students in small groups of 2 or 3), and I refused, they simply dropped the course from the catalog, saying that engineers don't need that "trade school stuff" anyway. They also refused to pay for a DRO for the mill, saying that people didn't really use all that fancy stuff out in the real world.

That is really sad! How long ago was it?

Just a few years ago. I don't remember exactly, but within the past five years.

I went to Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, N.Y. I had engineering drawing, machine shop practice, foundry, pattern making, material lab, electrical lab, chemistry. That was 60 years ago. I don't know if it has changed.

Sorry state of affair about engineering education. We all are lucky we could lay hands on all kinds od basic machines but to-day's generation are taught theories only.

In engineering colleges/universities all tools,equipments, machineries,instruments, meters etc should be introduced to students. To do that are the lecturers and so-called Professors know their names & functions?.