Previous in Forum: 370MPH Crash   Next in Forum: 98 Cavalier
Close
Close
Close
100 comments
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3

Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 4:07 PM

I was recently passing through an intersection with a green light. In the lane next to me was a school bus that had not started to move yet. Apparently he was blocking my view (and hearing) of a fire engine that was blasting through with the siren on. I was able to stop in time, but was concerned that I was not aware of it earlier. I have good hearing, but had the windows up, air conditioner on and radio on(not very loud). It occurred to me that if all car stereos, or the cars themselves had receivers built in that could detect a signal from emergency vehicles, an alarm could be sounded INSIDE the car. This shouldn't be that hard to design into cars or stereos, and the emergency vehicles themselves. It would take a while for this to be common, but in a few years, it should help save lives.

I consider myself fairly aware of my surroundings, but know that many (people who are elderly, hard of hearing, listening to loud music, having a conversation, etc.) are less aware than they should be.

How would one go about passing this on to corporate offices that could act on it?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
2
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30952
Good Answers: 1727
#1

Re: Siren notification inside cars

10/01/2014 4:14 PM

Maybe you should just slow down when passing stopped vehicles at intersections, which is never a good idea....

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Siren notification inside cars

10/01/2014 4:22 PM

I don't believe I mentioned how fast I was going. My speed is irrelevant to the discussion. I really hope this isn't going to be another thread that immediately erupts into pointless insults and attacks?

I would respectfully request that if people have nothing constructive to contribute, just sit back and leave it to those who do.

Thank you for listening.

(By the way, you might want to work on your writing skills, guru. I think I understand what you were trying to say, but that sentence is a grammatical trainwreck!)

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 12)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#46
In reply to #2

Re: Siren notification inside cars

10/04/2014 4:10 PM

7 OTs?

What's wrong with you guys?

If you consider a question stupid, how hard is it to ignore it?

These childish, wolfpack mentality beatdowns are getting really old.

IHS- Where immature bullies rule the playgound.

Stop it.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Anonymous Poster #1
#47
In reply to #46

Re: Siren notification inside cars

10/04/2014 4:14 PM

5+2=7.

Whasa big deal.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#48
In reply to #47

Re: Siren notification inside cars

10/04/2014 4:26 PM

Whateva...

There was nothing malicious from the OP, and I'm fairly sure that IHS is actually interested in getting people to click on CR4 and maybe hang around.

There are a few here that want to circle the wagons and move in for the kill, before a newbie is even able to get his/her feet wet.

It's petty and stupid. Just sayin'.

Do what you want.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#3

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 4:58 PM

If they did that you can bet there would be a sea of hackers working hard to find ways to activate it at will.

The bottom line is: Situational Awareness.

You always need to expect the unexpected when driving. I am routinely checking rearview mirrors to keep an eye out not only for emergency vehicles, but traffic threats in general.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 5:08 PM

Maintaining situational awwareness is good advice, but consider the 100,000,00 or so drivers in this country who will never have that.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#8
In reply to #4

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 6:27 PM

By my reasoning there are about twice that many who should have never gotten a drivers licence to begin with in this country.

Owning and driving a vehicle should be a privilege that is well earned not a right that is bestowed on any and every dipsh!t that thinks they need to go someplace that their legs or public transportation could have gotten them to without being a danger and nuisance to the rest of us.

BTW I have a class A Commercial Drivers Licence with all the bells and whistles and to be honest I think that the time, effort, cost and above all responsibility that goes into getting that and keeping it should be the minimum standard that everyone who wants to operate a vehicle should have to match.

The #1 danger to truck drivers is not other truck drivers with like licences. It's the vast majority of people with the lowest level of licence that is required to be on the road.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 6:57 PM

Sounds like you've seen me on the road??

Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#5

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 5:11 PM

"cars had receivers built in that could detect a signal from emergency vehicles"

You are talking about an unnecessarily large cost to the customers of the automakers and emergency vehicle makers.

I say unnecessary based on the risk vs reward to the customers. That would be the public. You and me.

The automakers would pass along the cost of the receiver, or modifications to existing receivers, and the emergency vehicle manufacturers would charge the taxpayers for the cost of yet another electronic broadcasting device.

The "corporate offices that could act on it" would have to be forced into action by legislation that will never see the light of day.

Sorry, this is a non-starter.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8778
Good Answers: 376
#10
In reply to #5

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 7:00 PM

GA, that's pretty much what I was going to say.

It may be a good idea but the massive expense and difficulty trying to get all the automotive and government departments that would need to be involved to agree and implement the solution would be astronomical. Any half measure could cause more problems than it solves.

In addition this still won't solve the larger problem of "red-light runners" who also run through red lights and have to be watched out for at blind intersections, and depending on where you are, are MORE likely to occur than emergency vehicles.

Situational awareness still seems like the best option here.

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Large hole formally occupied by furry woodland creature.
Posts: 3385
Good Answers: 97
#6

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 5:23 PM

You could put a mortar on the hood of the emergency vehicle that lobs a flashbang into the center of the intersection before proceeding.

__________________
CRTL-Z
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7045
Good Answers: 206
#7

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 5:27 PM

dont sweat V-V is headed your way...a computer will over-ride your choices and the emerg vehicle will prevail while you crank up the Led Zep

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Savannah, GA. The post office decided to change my address again.
Posts: 253
Good Answers: 19
#11

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 7:31 PM

Those of us out here that get a little enthusiastic when driving sometimes or are gadget freaks (like me) and have decent radar detectors in their vehicles will find that the technology already exists in certain dectectors.

In addition to emergengy vehicle warning system (no this is not the radar/lidar portion of the detector) it also warns of active train proximity alerts for safety at crossings.

But the downside is this, NOT ALL EMERGENGY SERVICES VEHICLES ARE EQUIPPED with this type of transmitter (it should only be active when lights and siren are active) and not everyone is a scofflaw like me.

I wouldn't be surprised if the GPS folks have the capability of including this type of feature.

__________________
Never seem more learned than the people you are with. Wear your learning like a pocket watch and keep it hidden. Do not pull it out to count the hours, but give the time when you are asked.(Lord Chesterfield)
Register to Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2027
Good Answers: 112
#12

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 11:10 PM

A situation very similar to what you described killed a woman in a town in New Hampshire when I lived up there. A fire truck on call with lights flashing and sirens blaring broadsided a woman in an intersection. She had her view blocked by a truck but kept through the intersection on a green light and apparently never saw or heard the fire engine.

Long story short, the driver of the fire truck was found at fault for not maintaining due diligence for surrounding traffic. Being on an emergency call is not a carte blanche excuse for ignoring common traffic laws in congested areas.

The fire truck driver should have practiced more care and was relieved from driving until he retrained.

My opinion is that we don't need any more "safety" gadgets that drive up the cost of buying and maintaining vehicles.

Hooker

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30952
Good Answers: 1727
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/01/2014 11:59 PM

A lot of people have died while being in the right.....Drive Defensively....

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Register to Reply
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 952
Good Answers: 27
#52
In reply to #13

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/06/2014 9:43 AM

50+ yrs ago Mom stated you don't want to be "dead right", or even left for dead for that matter.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#18
In reply to #12

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 7:08 AM

"Being on an emergency call is not a carte blanche excuse for ignoring common traffic laws ..."

In Florida, as well as most (if not all) states emergency vehicles must still obey speed limits.

Our city's trucks come to almost a complete stop before transgressing an intersection that has an active red light.

The root of the problem is that people get too stuck into their driving routines and fail to consider the possibility of emergencies and their consequences.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#20
In reply to #18

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 7:22 AM

Exactly my point. Even the most attentive drivers might have less than perfect focus at times. Anything that helps to get our attention would be beneficial. (Put the phone down and drive!!)

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 76
#14

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 3:33 AM

We've already got them here. The equipment comprises translucent windows in all vehicles, flashing blue lights on those operated by the emergency services, and the drivers of the latter receive special training.

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 178
Good Answers: 8
#15

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 5:39 AM

I can imagine circumstances where that sort of thing could be a benefit to safety. I don't really see it adding that much cost to a car, radios already receive radio signals so it's not like your adding totally new functionality, not to mention economies of scale that would soon apply, but the equipment on the Emergency Vehicle could be a bit more costly.

Another thought that crossed my mind, and I believe some traffic signals already do this, would be for the traffic signal to sense the Emergency Vehicle and switch to a 4 way red or give the green to the responding vehicle.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 116
Good Answers: 15
#16

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 6:44 AM

I'm afraid nobody will implement the system you propose because the costs will not justify the benefits (it doesn't happen often enough). After all, there are out there more than 50 years old solutions for avoiding the drivers' blinding (by using polarized light) and nobody implemented them yet (although they might save many more lives)!

But not all hope is lost! There is a growing tendency to equip cars with MediaNav and Wi-Fi systems. And when this will become common enough, just some additional software will allow the emergency vehicles to repeatedly broadcast an emergency signal followed by the vehicle's position. And any close enough vehicle will automatically trigger a warning (it can be a voice message like "Caution! Emergency vehicle approaching from your left!") and show on the map the position of the approaching emergency vehicle. It will also work better if (by coincidence) there is more than one emergency vehicle nearby.

And this is more likely to happen because it implies just some relatively cheap software added to already existing equipment.

Register to Reply
3
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#17

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 6:46 AM

In many countries/areas there is already a "fix" for such problems. Each police, fire and ambulance vehicle has a special bit of electronics that switches traffic lights to green for the emergency vehicle and red for everyone else.

In some areas I believe, even buses can switch the lights in their favour. (Citation required)

There is no need to add anything to old car radios countrywide....that is too "hit and miss!!"

Its called "Traffic signal preemption"

Sadly, it appears that they are not installed everywhere....but they should be.

Its not even new electronics, it has been around for years in various forms.....

See here:-

Traffic signal preemption

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#19
In reply to #17

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 7:11 AM

We have them here is a few spots and more than a few motorists have been cited for trying to manipulate them for their own desires.

For some people it is something of both a challenge and a dare.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3688
Good Answers: 89
#21

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 9:19 AM

There is already a solution for the problem of not being able to see/hear emergency vehicles approaching intersections.

In many suburbs around Chicago (but not in Chicago itself) The traffic lights are designed to intercept a signal from the emergency vehicle and change the lights so the road the emerg. vehicle is entering from has a green light. When this system activates, white lights (something like a floodlight) mounted on the top of the signal lighting bar turn on, solid white for the direction about to be stopped, flashing white for the direction of traffic that will be allowed to continue.

No modification to passenger cars required, no required retraining of drivers needed, and the system is unobtrusive (the white light housing looks something like a traffic camera when the light is off.)

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#22
In reply to #21

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 1:24 PM

Post #17 ?

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 250
Good Answers: 7
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 1:28 PM

NIH

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#27
In reply to #23

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 3:22 PM

That acronym is really the acronym of the USA....seen it happen far too often....

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Large hole formally occupied by furry woodland creature.
Posts: 3385
Good Answers: 97
#24

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 1:44 PM

I like those Euro sirens that go: NEE NAAH NEE NAAH! Especially good Doppler effect.

__________________
CRTL-Z
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5198
Good Answers: 266
#25

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 2:47 PM

Let see what was learned.

A device to wake these less attentive people up will make them more attentive.

Having a commercial drivers license makes you the best driver.

Approaching an intersection with a green light I should assume that everyone has stop for me.

LOL

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Large hole formally occupied by furry woodland creature.
Posts: 3385
Good Answers: 97
#26

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 3:15 PM

Other traffic hazards to watch for;

  • Ice cream shops.
  • Fast food places.
  • Lotto dealers.
  • Cheer leader carwashes.
  • Saloons.
  • Road construction with the warning signs over the crest of a hill with a 50MPH speed limit.
  • On and off ramps with a flatbed trailer that has a single roll of steel that you know is heavy based on the 20 chains holding the roll.
  • Stretches of road with several crosses adorned with plastic flowers and the initials "RIP"
  • People texting so intently that they fail to notice pieces of their car flying off.
  • Noticing the radiator core detail in your rear view mirror.
__________________
CRTL-Z
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#28
In reply to #26

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 3:29 PM

You didn't include

Blondes behind the wheel.

Any person talking on a cell phone while trying to find a street or address or business.

Anyone under the age of 25.

Anyone group under the age of 25.

Never mind, this list will turn into a NEL.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Large hole formally occupied by furry woodland creature.
Posts: 3385
Good Answers: 97
#29

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 3:39 PM

I forgot the guy. with a can of beer, lifting the RR crossing gate and waving every one through.

__________________
CRTL-Z
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#30

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 3:55 PM

I'm thinking this might be a record for tangential, non-relevant posts on this forum, but I'm probably mistaken.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 6)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#32
In reply to #30

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 4:28 PM

Not even close.

The number usually increases when the OP complains about people not playing by his rules too.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#33
In reply to #32

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 4:43 PM

Like staying on topic?

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1
#31

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/02/2014 3:59 PM

I would like to take your idea to the next level. I also agree that the radio should indicate when emergency vehicles are approaching and the traffic light should also change to blinking both the red and yellow lights in all directions to visually notify all traffic at the intersection to stay still or get out of the way appropriately.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#34
In reply to #31

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 1:28 AM

How practical is the idea?

For example:-

1) My car radio is switched off, how will it get switched on?

2) I am listening to CDs, DVDs or even cassette music, how will it be switched to radio at the right frequency?

It implies that millions of car radios will be junked and replaced with new (still not designed!) ones. Who will pay?

Furthermore, a law change will be needed to force car drivers to replace their radios.

How many years will it take until EVERYONE has a new radio? Till then the danger exists!!!

Totally impractical....

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 178
Good Answers: 8
#35
In reply to #34

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 7:08 AM

In the whole scheme of things I don't understand why this would be considered such a difficult thing.

1) Like a lot of electronics now a days, just because the radio is off doesn't mean it doesn't have power. Most have clocks or station memories that require some amount of power so to keep a receiver going is not a big deal.

2. The radio will always be receiving on that emergency frequency, it's not unlike people with XM/Sirius with traffic alerts, it's always receiving those signals in the background. Also similar to those with GPS, the alert will just override your current audio source just like the directions override whatever audio source is playing.

This would not be a retrofit type thing, it would have to be a feature that comes out on new cars. Kind of like air-bags, nobody got air bags added to old cars but in time almost all cars now have them.

Why is this being looked at as an all or nothing proposition. Like most new technologies, especially in the auto industry, this could come out on higher end cars and would trickle down to cheaper cars as the prices came down.

Honestly, I'm not saying this is a great thing or even should be done, I just don't understand why someone comes on here with an interesting idea, and instead of exploring it everybody just want to jump on it as either impractical or stupid.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#36
In reply to #35

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 10:06 AM

It implies an expensive replacement of a working car radio.

How will the finance be organized?

It falls down on the financial and the time needed, IF a change to the law is made....which will probably lose the president his job at the next election.....so NO support from on high!!

Do you not try and think things through logically?

Of course its not a problem technically, there are millions of people around who could design one....but most will have far better things to do!!

Try answering my questions of how it will be financed and made a legal requirement before going off on a tangent.

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 178
Good Answers: 8
#37
In reply to #36

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 10:28 AM

Not sure what you talking about, no tangent here. Just answering your questions.

Also read my post, no replacement of working car radio, it would be implemented on new cars, so change to a new radio. It could be kind of like what happened with front air bags, its mandatory for cars built after some date in the future, cars built before that date are exempt. I don't like that approach, I hate being told I have to have something, I'm just pointing out how it could be done. I would see it more like what happened with side curtain air bags, starts as an option on certain cars and as it grows (or doesn't grow) in popularity would become available on more cars.

To answer your question, it could be made a requirement for Government vehicles. I hope most would agree it is not a huge hurdle to include it in new vehicles. Then once the government is using it the population at large would have the option to buy it with new cars. It doesn't have to be made a requirement for everyone to have them, it could be a choice. What does have to be a requirement is for Emergency Vehicles to have the transmitter, this would put more burden on small communities to add the technology to all of their Emergency Vehicles. This is the difficult part in implementing a system like this.

I'm not really sure why the hostility seems to surround this issue. I took it as a debate as to what could be done, not what has to be done. In your previous post you seemed to suggest that it was not technically feasible. Then you seemed to be angered when I disagree with that.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#38
In reply to #37

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 11:01 AM

See how you get on with implementing it, I won't hold my breath I will be impressed if you manage it!

The method already in use in many areas that I mentioned previously and posted a weblink detailing the methods, should not cost any vehicle owner anything at all.

It will also protect people on bikes or motorbikes (who mostly do not have radios anyway, you appear to have forgotten them!) AND pedestrians trying to cross the street also without radios!

Tell me now how your system will protect pedestrians, or two wheeled riders! Not forgetting the years needed before ALL cars have such a radio.

Please give me your thoughts on these problems.....you have addressed such things I trust!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#39
In reply to #38

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 1:10 PM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Abuse/Attack: This post was deleted because it was an attack on another user. Please review the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#40
In reply to #39

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 2:29 PM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Abuse/Attack: This post was deleted because it was an attack on another user. Please review the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#41
In reply to #40

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 3:16 PM

I should have added IGNORANT.

Go back and READ THE TITLE OF THE THREAD

"Siren Notification Inside Cars"

From the OP, "an alarm could be sounded INSIDE the car" Emphasis is the author's.

Even you seemed to grasp the concept, when you finally joined in, late as usual!

And, even in #34.

Not until Shawn33 made a comment, did you see an opportunity to try and belittle someone by displaying your "superior" intellect" did you drag the thread totally OFF TOPIC by including unrelated issues 38.

Get over yourself and sit on your hands, you ass.

"Siren Notification Inside Cars"

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#43
In reply to #41

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/04/2014 5:07 AM

Totally pointless - as usual!!!

Nothing new here.

But if you would be so kind as to air your knowledge on such things as:-

Development cost and funding, who should do this?

How development will be funded?

Cost to vehicle holder for new radio and installation?

Problems of installing/compatability on some older and possibly some newer models of cars and trucks, especially those with a CANBus system?

Have ANY of these possible problem areas been discussed ANYWHERE except on CR4? If yes, what were the conclusions......

If no, I rest my case!!!

Please answer at least a few of my queries in a logical and cool manner, thanks in advance...

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#44
In reply to #43

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/04/2014 10:34 AM

You have no case to rest. And don't change the subject.

"Do you not try and think things through logically?"

No, you are so obsessed with being right that nothing else matters.

Andy, you should follow your own advice, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"

Did you forget what you said?

"It will also protect people on bikes or motorbikes (who mostly do not have radios anyway, you appear to have forgotten them!) AND pedestrians trying to cross the street also without radios!

Tell me now how your system will protect pedestrians, or two wheeled riders! Not forgetting the years needed before ALL cars have such a radio."

The title of the thread is

"Siren Notification Inside Cars"

Good Bye.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#45
In reply to #44

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/04/2014 12:07 PM

As expected, absolutely no answer for such problems.

And simply ignoring those problems does not make them disappear as you probably wish they would!!

You basically said "I meant ONLY cars!!!"

Why in Gods name ONLY CARS, are they somehow better that two wheel drivers and pedestrians? Please tell us why ONLY CARS!!!!?

Where the systems ALREADY IN USE IN MANY AREAS OF THE WORLD, protect ALL road users and ALL pedestrians and requires no new development and no new development funding.

No ripping out of radios.....combined with no radio replacements needed and no possible car radio compatibility problems.

Not forgetting that all the radios ripped out will eventually have to be simply thrown away.

So we can guess that you don't drive a modern car, a Mercedes for example, who sometimes have Radio/Nav costing new some $5,000 for example......

Bu even cheap Radio/Navs in say a VW car can cost new over $3,000.....just to be junked by your system!!!!

Totally laughable.....

And you accuse me of having no logic and always wanting to be right!

Also picking on my "saying" has made you look absolutely stupid......but we all knew that already!!! Nothing new there!!

You should have been a politician, you share their type and style of thinking!!!

I don't!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3
Good Answers: 1
#71
In reply to #35

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 11:23 AM

Well said. To address the naysayers, it would be a marginal cost (less than a dollar) to current electronic controlled radios, cheaper than a car wash...

It has been commented on magazines like Popular Mechanics/Science (maybe they are too "elemental" for all those geniuses tring to ridiculize the idea).

The enourmous task I believe is to unify car and radio makers on a universal solution (that means the whole planet Earth, not only USA).

Insuring companies, enforcement and emergency agencies will be VERY happy to save money as a result of fewer accidents (colliding with an emergency vehicle is a common cause of accidents).

I'm sure if you have a high end vehicle you will be more than eager to spend a buck to avoid the possibility of an accident. I will surely pay that dollar to have extra warnings, even that I'm driving an old modest car.

And there are other technologies already in place to avoid accidents, but you don't mock them, like ABS (should you brake more carefully?), collision detection and automatic braking (Should you drive more attentively?), sideways vehicle warning (Should you adjust your side mirrors AND be more attentive?)

But the bottom line is lives saved, seems like you don't care for human life (some have said this is a trivial proposal, that should be decided on cost/benefit basis...) but... What if the life lost is one of your children? Does cost/benefit applies here?

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#72
In reply to #71

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 11:30 AM

Your missed the point by not looking over the impact it can have.

Lets look at possible costs.

The initial cost can be low, but whose responsible if you do get in an accident.

Or how about a recall, for this small item.

Would you still say inexpensive item?

And now the responsibility if it fails. That is another item.

No, the Risk/Benefit ratio is not affordable.

If an individual is so inattentive at driving that they need more warnings that can cause more distractions, then its time to consider taking up public transportation.

Because its time to take ownership of ones own responsibility to drive.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 178
Good Answers: 1
#42

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/03/2014 11:29 PM

You were on your way to a preventable accident citation had you survived. Not the attention type one appreciates.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1032
Good Answers: 86
#49

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/04/2014 8:29 PM

A definitely cheaper and more effective approach would be to have those emergency vehicles equipped with a device to signal traffic lights control system in front of them to give them priority and enough time to other vehicles to stop, of course use MUST be logged and used ONLY on emergencies. And don't argue about such a system's possibility to be hijacked, it CAN be made invunerable, and even a stolen such device can be tracked and/or remotely rendered useless. S.M.

__________________
Life is complex. It has a real part and an imaginary part.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#50
In reply to #49

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/05/2014 3:48 AM

Like it!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1032
Good Answers: 86
#51
In reply to #50

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/05/2014 4:06 AM

Ooops! Looks others including you mentioned that something similar to my(!) system is already implemented. Nevermind. I was not going to ask for copyright royalties. But that does not change the fact that it took 100 years of motoring to get to a solution I came up in 10 seconds. (LMAO) S.M.

__________________
Life is complex. It has a real part and an imaginary part.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#53
In reply to #51

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/06/2014 1:14 PM

The first systems were installed in the USA in 1969 as far as I can tell from the web.

So its nothing new.

Were you even born in 1969?

Were you old enough to drive in 1969?

I would say everyone of a driving age today, should have heard of such systems.....but thats only my opinion! Obviously you have never ever heard of it!! Its probably not a legal requirement!

They were never installed secretly....

I hope you find the following links helpful, interesting and informative:-

its_publicsafety

and here:-

Traffic_signal_preemption

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 732
Good Answers: 17
#54
In reply to #53

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/06/2014 2:17 PM

In the U.S., only certain municipalities have these systems, and varies by state as well.

Similar to the high cost per vehicle you mentioned, the cost per intersection and per emergency vehicle would be astronomical.

Safety does have a price ceiling, unfortunately.

__________________
common knowledge...less common than common sense
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#55
In reply to #54

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/06/2014 3:13 PM

Compared to the costs of replacing every cars radio (which may also be an expensive Nav/GPS as well), its a drop in the ocean.......

Plus it covers everyone at a traffic light junction fitted with it, not just car radio owners who put out the money to update.....

Its also not needed at every junction, every where......probably more in the big cities and almost none outside the cities.....I would expect that there is software to evaluate a) is it needed at all and b) what type would be best.

In 2007 it was estimated that there were 254.4 million registered passenger vehicles in the USA !

That was not counting trucks and motorbikes.....

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2027
Good Answers: 112
#56
In reply to #55

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/06/2014 4:18 PM

In the town where I lived in New Hampshire where the accident I described in a previous note happened, I was minorly involved with the fire department. When the accident happened the hardware to control the signals in that particular intersection to give right of way to emergency vehicles had already been installed but was still awaiting testing to certify it.

The reason for installing the device at that particular intersection was very detailed in that it was one of the most congested intersections on the most heavily traveled thoroughfare in the town. Part of the requirements of installation was a studied survey that found that emergency response in that part of town was below standard and needed to be improved. At the time, circa 1990, the most cost effective solution was signal control triggered by a particular sequence of strobing lights on the emergency vehicle. Only a handful of intersections were ever equipped.

I see no reason to come up with hardware that must be installed on every vehicle within the country of interest when non-intrusive systems exist and work pretty well. Are they perfect? Of course not. As much as the US Federal gov't would argue there is no one solution fits all and probably most of the cars that would be required to have an onboard emergency awareness system would never use it.

Accidents continue to happen no matter what. Welcome to life.

Hooker

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#59
In reply to #56

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 4:57 AM

GA

I like your thought processes!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 178
Good Answers: 1
#75
In reply to #56

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 11:51 PM

The trend towards traffic circles would add cost too.

Register to Reply
2
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#57

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/06/2014 7:29 PM

Let's ask a simple (if not stupid) question here, how big is the problem, really?

I think that there is a prevailing thought by some that risk must always be driven to zero.

I love the mantra, "If it saves one life it is worth it!"

While the sentiment is nice, the truth is we live in a world where we are always accepting some risks because it is simply not possible to pay the cost of zero risk, even it was possible.

Every time we get into our cars we accept a certain possibility that we may be killed or injured. Fatalities by autos is not trivial, but you are more likely to accidentally poison yourself than die in a car.

Life is simply full of risks that we take for granted every day. However, death by emergency vehicle is pretty low on the priority list.

The best data I have found was that between 1991 and 2000 there were about 300 fatal accidents involving emergency vehicles. 274 of those individuals were non-emergency personnel.

That's roughly 30 people per year compared to 36,000 people in the US that die from accidental poisoning.

Even fatalities at rail road crossing far eclipse emergency vehicles. In the last 9 years there have been over 2,500 deaths at track crossings. I would contend that most of those are attributable to total lack of reason on the part of the driver. No amount of safety devices can outsmart stupid.

While adding gizmos in the approximate 275 million passenger vehicles to help mitigate traffic light intrusions may sound like a noble cause, I submit that we far bigger fish to fry with our limited resources.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2027
Good Answers: 112
#58
In reply to #57

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/06/2014 8:31 PM

Exactly what I meant in message #57.

The purpose for putting in the intersection control was not to stop collisions, it was to get emergency vehicles to the scene quicker.

Any prevention of collisions in transit was just a nice benefit but not recognized as a true need for the system.

Hooker

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2027
Good Answers: 112
#61
In reply to #58

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 6:36 AM

Ooops, meant to say message #56.

Sorry.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#64
In reply to #58

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 8:12 AM

In theory it seems good, but I wonder how it plays out in practice and if the benefits justifies the costs.

It may in some intersections, but others may be a wash.

What I have observed is that emergency vehicles are always slowing down at intersections because there usually is a knot of stopped cars there anyway.

Forcing the light red may help, but you will always have to contend with the possibility of those that are turning right on red.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2027
Good Answers: 112
#67
In reply to #64

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 8:51 AM

It's all a balancing act in risk management.

We learned a long time ago that the quicker we can respond to an emergency the less risk of property damage or bodily injury or death, so a municipality has an explicit requirement to get there quick.

However, there is also a need to understand that if an uncontrolled response results in the responder not getting there due to accident then nobody is served and more people and property are at risk. Thus, emergency vehicle drivers are not exempt from driving laws or common sense, or the awareness that others on the road will act stupidly or otherwise react crazily.

Successful emergency response plans don't happen by accident. That's why, here in the US, there's a National Fire Academy. Not only do they provide training in all aspects of emergency management, they are also the ANSI or ASME for municipal fire departments for all their planning needs. My ex, when she was a secretary in the fire chiefs office in that New Hampshire town, even went to the academy for training in Hazmat response management. She was responsible for the fire department Hazmat computer systems. Wow, did that get detailed, particularly regarding evacuation planning!!! It's akin to herding cats.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Hooker

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#68
In reply to #67

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 8:59 AM

There more to that, in rural areas, if there is an accident on a border between two townships, there have be arguments that break out on which township take control. at the scene of an accident.

I had a designer that worked for me, and he was a volunteer fireman. And an accident happen just like this that he was on. He said it was a very embarrassing situation. And if they're not careful, it can turn up to be grounds for a lawsuit.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2027
Good Answers: 112
#69
In reply to #68

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 9:27 AM

That means there has not been good planning in mutual assistance between the jurisdictions. All that has been covered by specs and standards developed by the National Fire Academy. Planning specs by the NFA have been developed for all regions, from urban to rural.

The authorities in the area you speak of have been remiss in their planning duties.

Where I live now there are awesome plans in place to address these problems. Not that there can't be issues created by overzealous volunteers!! But the commander on site should be all over that kind of attitude.

Hooker

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#70
In reply to #69

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 9:34 AM

That is so correct, Also.

Volunteer fire department personal, they are an intrical part of smaller communities, I have to credit them for this for their commitment.

(a personal experience, we had a barn fire back in 1980, within 15 minutes since the fire was first noticed, to the time the first fire truck arrived and was pumping water was 15 minutes. All volunteers, that was unbelievable and was reassuring. )

But the attitudes that make them excel at this, works against them when instances like this occur and its like taking a toy away from a child. And your description of overzealous volunteers is a correct description.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#60
In reply to #57

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 5:01 AM

GA

Thats simply common sense!! Some here have problems with that, but not me!!

Can you please right something that I can disagree with, once in a while?

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#62
In reply to #60

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 7:52 AM

We have had our share. ;-)

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#63

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 8:11 AM

Driving is a privilege and you have to stay alert. Does not matter if you have a right of way or not. Its not a prefect world out there.

I dated a girl a while back, when she cross the street, she would never look. There were a number of times I had to grab her , and sometimes to pull her out of the way just to save her life.

Her defense was, as a pedestrian, she had the Right of Way (arrogant little nurse).

Until one time she said that, I responded, "I'll make sure it gets put on your epitaph.

"Here Lies "So and so", I may have been run over my a car, But I did have the right of way."

Needless to say this worked.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#65
In reply to #63

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 8:15 AM

"There were a number of times I had to grab her."

Reminds me of a story a guy told when he went to England and was about to cross the street, but habitually looked the wrong way.

A local buddy grabbed him just before he was about to be hit and said, "This is why we call you guys Yanks!"

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#66
In reply to #65

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 8:19 AM

Brilliant!

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Large hole formally occupied by furry woodland creature.
Posts: 3385
Good Answers: 97
#73

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 11:39 AM

"I was recently passing through an intersection with a green light. In the lane next to me was a school bus that had not started to move yet" Ask yourself "Should I continue, or is there a reason for the stopped school bus"?

__________________
CRTL-Z
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 952
Good Answers: 27
#74

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/07/2014 3:57 PM

A system was tested during the 96 Atlanta Olympics. An infrared transmitter was added the emergency light bar. It strobed a signal that either gave the responder a green light or turned the lights red in all directions.

We installed them on LINY emergency vehicles in the late '90s. The municipalities must install receivers at each traffic light. They can be coded, so woe to anyone making an emergency donut run.

Another of Mom's rules, You never enter an intersection unless you can egress, and you always look both ways, before entering. Just like making a walk around before driving, to make certain there are no bicycles/toys etc behind you attached to children.

The OP sounds like the Suffolk County Legislator whose brother in law sold hands free cell phone accessories in the mid 90's. We all know how that turned out.

No electronical gizmo will ever be a substitute for a non functioning brain..........me

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#76
In reply to #74

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/08/2014 3:28 AM

GA

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#77
In reply to #74

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 9:11 AM

Does anyone know of an engineering forum where one can post a discussion and expect a civil discussion without being flamed and insulted?

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 6)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#78
In reply to #77

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 9:15 AM

Don't confused with being insulted or being challenged.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#79
In reply to #78

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 9:38 AM

Don't confused challenge sentences incomplete rudeness with.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#80
In reply to #79

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 9:51 AM

you just nailed that one.... I think..

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#81
In reply to #78

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 9:54 AM

Don't confuse being challenging with rudeness.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#83
In reply to #81

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 10:05 AM

Got it.

At times being directly challenged can be rude or appear to be rude. But after reading the earlier post, now I get you stance.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#82
In reply to #78

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 9:57 AM

(Text is not showing up. I'll try it without checking OT box. Or maybe the server is just acting up again.)

Don't confuse challenging with rudeness. It isn't that hard to conduct a civil conversation.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#84
In reply to #82

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 10:12 AM

Also you have to understand that is a two-way street.

Was this post#2 a challenge, or rudeness? (With reing rude of not giving who you were addressing that he was not experience technical difficulties.)

I actually consider it of grammar policing.

But at times, it depends on who set the tone of this conversation and then it escalates. grammatical errors happen and we are all guilty of it.

(So that this isn't misunderstood as rudeness, but a challenge)

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#85
In reply to #84

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 11:31 AM

I guess I overreacted by answering what I perceived as an ad hominem attack with the same. I've seen so much uncivil behavior on this website, that I've come to expect it.(and have not been disappointed.)

I'll try to ignore the rude replies in the future.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#86
In reply to #85

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 11:37 AM

It can be difficult, but on a blogs words can be sharper than actual intend.... at times.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 952
Good Answers: 27
#87
In reply to #77

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 12:08 PM

Exactly how did I insult you? If you consider my alternative to your request to modify 200 million or so vehicles an insult, you are very thin skinned indeed. Why don't you rent a PO Box in Suffolk County, NY and become a resident? Then you can forward your idea to a group of folks on your level. Who knows maybe it will come to "pass". Bad pun intended.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tampa Florida USA
Posts: 180
Good Answers: 3
#88
In reply to #87

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 12:24 PM

I didn't mention you specifically. But your references to Suffolk county in both posts is unknown to me, but strikes me as rude. I'm not going to waste time looking it up. Your tone was pretty clear to me, emoticons or not.

If you wanted to make a point, you could have just posted some facts.

Maybe I AM too thin skinned for this forum. I thought it was a place to discuss engineering issues with some people with experience, and willingness to have a constructive conversation.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#89
In reply to #88

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 2:37 PM

I think that the problem lies with us, we are Engineers, and we look for simple and practical ways to develop or fix things......not make them difficult to install and costly...

As someone recently pointed out, changing 200 million vehicle radios (actually not even close, 240 million passenger vehicles alone in the US!), probably at the cost of the owners, will never work, nor will it be accepted....and Engineers simply cannot even stand to read about such "fixes" as they are totally impractical....so it then gets rough!

Furthermore, the original "fix" proposed did not in any way protect two wheel users or pedestrians, whereas the fixes (several types around) already in place at many important junctions around the world, actually have been in use since the 1960s......so they have a long test procedure already made.....

Also, they do not need to be on every junction.

Huge amount of Money saved!!

Have a great day....and please be practical!!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#99
In reply to #77

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/11/2014 3:33 PM

Yes. But at the end of the day, we all suck sh4t anyway.
One stop shopping works for me.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Large hole formally occupied by furry woodland creature.
Posts: 3385
Good Answers: 97
#90

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 5:20 PM

Most auto audio systems go to half volume when the car is shut down then re-started so there must be a trigger involved.

However, with the average decibel level of an emergency vehicle horn of 120 db. @ 10', perhaps a higher level such as that of a train chime @ 158 db. would be an improvement?

__________________
CRTL-Z
Register to Reply
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 952
Good Answers: 27
#91
In reply to #90

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 6:49 PM

Don't recall the municipality but I've read about a group of fireman who had a lawsuit against one of the major siren manufacturers. IIRC correctly it was either Federal or Whalen. The reason the "sirens were too loud and caused hearing loss". It isn't the manufacturer who is at fault but the entity who wrote the bid specifications.

Each year when before I hit the magic age we had to attend an annual meeting where new rules and procedures were decimated, (no misspelling). Each one of these stressed PPE's hearing protection was only topped by eye protection. We went to great lengths to ensure are folks abided by the rules. This of course was negated by people wearing ear buds and you could hear the noise at 15 feet, or cars stereos that rattle windows at 1/4 mile.

Register to Reply
2
Guru
Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
Posts: 5708
Good Answers: 123
#92
In reply to #91

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/09/2014 11:55 PM

Emergency vehicles are built to the specifications submitted by the authority having jurisdiction. BUT, some agencies have no idea what should be on a vehicle. For this reason there is the NFPA or National Fire Protection Association. The people involved in this association work very hard to mandate the safest emergency fire equipment that they can. Have you noticed the stripes on the back of fire engines and medical rescue trucks? NFPA standard. Notice no white emergency lights on the back of trucks? Again NFPA at work. As a solution to the cost of equipping emergency vehicles with the traffic light modifiers, Have NFPA make it mandatory on new purchases. No municipality wants to go to court trying to defend why it deviated from the accepted NFPA standards, and in doing so contributed to an avoidable injury or worse. The systems are usually a part of the emergency light and siren package. Once the municipalities start to have the equipment on the vehicles, it will become more practical to install the other part of the system at the intersections. This is not always easy as it is common to have intersections that have three different authorities all in the same town. Major roads may be state roads, smaller ones may be county roads, and the less traveled roads may be city, or town roads. So the local town that buys a fire engine now needs to get the county, or state to approve the traffic preempting system.

As for sirens themselves, current standard is to mount the noise making part of a siren (actually just a 100 watt speaker or two) below and in front of the occupants of the vehicle. Again, thanks to NFPA.

The latest device to aid in the noise battle is a low tone siren. It augments the existing high pitched sirens with a low rumbling sound that penetrates better than the high pitched sounds. The low frequencies actually allow you to feel the siren in your chest cavity.

From the training manual, as best as I can recall, all drivers are required to obey all traffic devices. Only when the driver has made certain that the intersection is clear, is he or she permitted to proceed through. If the OP could not see the fire engine, the fire engine could not see that the intersection was clear.

I can see the day when the traffic preempting equipment that is used on emergency equipment would also sound a notice in nearby vehicles. We only need to establish a standard frequency to be used. Similar to the emergency frequencies used in marine and airplanes. Once the standard is there, auto manufactures will be forced to include the system. Currently no US road vehicles are sold without radios as there is some warning announcements that are played through the radio. So the system only needs to learn to react to the emitted signal from the trucks.

Sorry, this got longer than I wanted, but I felt I had some insight after 30+ years repairing and maintaining Fire equipment.

__________________
Bob
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 952
Good Answers: 27
#97
In reply to #92

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/10/2014 10:51 AM

There used to be a major "fire apparatus" manufacturer in Ft Lauderdale, did you work for them? I did the communications, light bars, and sirens, in an after market situation. Mostly for "Lynn's' company located in Coral Gables. 30yrs, I did closer to 40. I'm surprised I can still hear. The major problems were with the TV shows, radios that work underwater, jet skis with Xenon strobes "very good for electrocuting the operator". Officers that would leave the mic in the holder. Talking on motorcycle radios at speed etc. The new LED light bars are an improvement. Down here Puerto Rico, the police drive around at night with "take down" lights on as well as the light bars. Can't wait for some civilian to run over a pedestrian or cylclist and blame it on vision blindness.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
Posts: 5708
Good Answers: 123
#98
In reply to #97

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/11/2014 1:36 AM

The only fire apparatus manufacturer I can think of in Ft. Lauderdale was South Florida Mack. They closed up about 15 years ago. If that is not who you had in mind, PM me and let me know.

As for me, I spent the last 30 years at Ft Laud. Int. Airport maintaining their fleet of airport fire trucks. Some structure fire trucks, some rescue trucks, and what ever else they could find that was related. In addition,on occasion I would work on the industrial pumpers at Port Everglades Fire station.

__________________
Bob
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#93
In reply to #90

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/10/2014 3:11 AM

It would imply sound proofing needed for the emergency vehicle as I believe over 100db (in reality even less I found out!) can an cause hearing damage....

Pedestrians, possible close to the vehicle on the side of the road, may also get hearing damage.....

I find the idea to be possibly dangerous, to hearing "health", but better "deaf" than "dead" you think?

But the next time an emergency vehicle goes by???

I found this, which fits in with my own "sketchy" knowledge, and it claims that sounds above 85db can permanently damage hearing:-

Of the roughly 40 million Americans suffering from hearing loss, 10 million can be attributed to noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL). NIHL can be caused by a one-time exposure to loud sound as well as by repeated exposure to sounds at various loudness levels over an extended period of time. Damage happens to the microscopic hair cells found inside the cochlea. These cells respond to mechanical sound vibrations by sending an electrical signal to the auditory nerve. Different groups of hair cells are responsible for different frequencies (rate of vibrations). The healthy human ear can hear frequencies ranging from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz. Over time, the hair cell's hair-like stereocilia may get damaged or broken. If enough of them are damaged, hearing loss results. The high frequency area of the cochlea is often damaged by loud sound.

Sound pressure is measured in decibels (dB). Like a temperature scale, the decibel scale goes below zero. The average person can hear sounds down to about 0 dB, the level of rustling leaves. Some people with very good hearing can hear sounds down to -15 dB. If a sound reaches 85 dB or stronger, it can cause permanent damage to your hearing.

At this website for even more detail:-

noise-induced-hearing-loss

My take is that is simply too loud for road usage.....though the idea shows thought!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22637
Good Answers: 409
#94
In reply to #93

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/10/2014 7:33 AM

It would imply sound proofing needed for the emergency vehicle as I believe over 100db (in reality even less I found out!) can an cause hearing damage....

Hearing loss is not only attributed to the louder noise, but hearing loss can also be caused by more subtle, BUT continuous and steady sounds.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 952
Good Answers: 27
#96
In reply to #93

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/10/2014 10:39 AM

Very nice, but sound is like the Kelvin temperature scale. I doubt you can get 0 sound on earth. The "-" is in reference to some standard sound level. The reference level for 0db is 20 uPA at 1KHz. This is generally considered the lowest discernible sound that can be heard by a person with "20/20" hearing.

I find it interesting that it turned out to be a logarithmic scale. When Mr Bell put it together, 1 "Bell" was the minimum change in intensity a human could discern.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 178
Good Answers: 1
#100
In reply to #90

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/21/2014 3:16 AM

the lower frequency ranges maybe more effective

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Large hole formally occupied by furry woodland creature.
Posts: 3385
Good Answers: 97
#95

Re: Siren Notification Inside Cars

10/10/2014 9:02 AM

My suggestion (#90) is derived from the title "Siren Notification Inside Cars". One way to "get inside the car" is with sound level, I am not talking about the steady siren, but the air or electronic horns used in approach and passage through an intersection.

__________________
CRTL-Z
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 100 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

adreasler (1); Alex. Roman (1); Andy Germany (17); Anonymous Hero (7); Anonymous Poster (1); bob c (2); Crabtree (1); DJ DeVeau (1); dzenizo (1); Fredski (1); Hooker (6); jack of all trades (1); jdsighter (3); JWthetech (6); kramarat (3); lyn (7); ozzb (1); phoenix911 (11); sharpstick (11); Shawn33 (3); SimpleMind (2); Snel (1); SolarEagle (2); tcmtech (1); The.Tinkerer (1); Unredundant (7); Wrench twirler (1)

Previous in Forum: 370MPH Crash   Next in Forum: 98 Cavalier

Advertisement