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Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 11:51 AM

Hello everyone. I'm doing some research on vacuum chambers and was wondering if anyone could point me to the calculations needed to find the thickness of materials I would need to design one? I will admit, I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I may not be exactly sure what I'm asking for. I've tried searching google and have found references to the hoop stress stress formula, however, looking at replies on other forums, it seems like that may not be adequate for calculating the stresses of a vacuum. Please let me know if I need to provide any more information.

Thanks,

Jarred

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#1

Re: Looking for information on vacuum chambers

10/03/2014 11:56 AM

Factor in internally supported surface area and maximum atmospheric pressure expected.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Looking for information on vacuum chambers

10/03/2014 12:12 PM

That's fine for the the external mechanical stress loading a vacuum chamber will reach under low or medium vacuum level. To obtain any higher vacuum level will also require an understanding of material outgassing, pump capabilities along with seal conditions.

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#5
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Re: Looking for information on vacuum chambers

10/03/2014 12:23 PM

redfred,

Once again in my eagerness to help I have failed to considered the extremes. This guy may be trying to build his own freeze dryer

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#6
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Re: Looking for information on vacuum chambers

10/03/2014 12:28 PM

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone that's posted so far. You're actually correct. I was looking into what it would take to do a home based unit similar to a harvest right. I doubt it would ever get passed the "I wish I could build this" stage, from what I've seen about the design principals, but it is interesting seeing the engineering behind the products.

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#7
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Re: Looking for information on vacuum chambers

10/03/2014 12:44 PM

I was just trying to show the limits where your useful and accurate information was the the critical criteria. From the sparse information the OP gave us we cannot tell if the goal of this vacuum chamber is food preparation (freeze drying), altitude simulation, or synchrotron end station sample manipulation.

I've seen far too many a post-doc researcher consume precious time and resources trying to design outside of their training.

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#2

Re: Looking for information on vacuum chambers

10/03/2014 12:04 PM

they suck

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#4

Re: Looking for information on vacuum chambers

10/03/2014 12:19 PM

It's dangerous. You'll put your eye out.

Hire a mechanical engineer.

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#8

Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 12:45 PM

The intended use of the vacuum chamber, the size, and the level of vacuum must be known....and many other factors....You need an engineer who works in this field to design something like this, or can be bought off the shelf....unless this is just a hobby and intended vacuum levels will be minimal....

http://www.ijmer.com/papers/Vol3_Issue3/CX3316661671.pdf

Hypermesh is a good software program for design....

http://www.ijmer.com/papers/Vol3_Issue3/CX3316661671.pdf

Small scale hobby use...

http://skunkpharmresearch.com/diy-vacuum-purging-chamber/

https://256.makerslocal.org/wiki/DIY_Freeze_Dryer

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/building-a-flat-rectangular-vacuum-chamber.570440/

Technical design guide....

https://cds.cern.ch/record/1046848/files/p31.pdf

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#9
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 12:55 PM

Thank you for the links SolarEagle. From some of the other responses, I see that designing this myself is way out of my league. The advice to hire an engineer, or to buy something pre-made is very good advice. Thank you, and everyone else that's responded for all the information.

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#10
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 12:58 PM

Excellent! I particularly like your paper from Cern.

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#11

Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 2:03 PM

You might also look at commercial products and just copy what they've done.

I haven't checked but I imagine they have drawings of their products available.

Many offer CAD files, even.

Considerations in Vacuum Vessel Design - Vac Aero

Vacuum Chamber Design Considerations for CANDLE

Vacuum chamber design.

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#12

Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 4:36 PM

There's a video on YouTube somewhere of a collapsing rail tanker. It's quite spectacular.

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#13
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 4:50 PM

This is how NOT to design vacuum chambers.

Railroad tank car vacuum implosion - YouTube

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#14
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 4:58 PM

And why NOT to "ride the rails".

That poor hobo!

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#15
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 5:46 PM

I disagree. That tank car failed spectacularly but there is no significant shrapnel and if this car was moving the wheels may have stayed on the track. Planning for controllable failure modes is a clever design that most misunderstand.

We had a liquid nitrogen cooled detector that was housed in a breadbox size aluminum casting. The casting walls and lid were about 3/8 in (10 mm) thick. The lid was held on by only four flimsy 4-40 plated brass screws that created the pressure to keep multiple gaskets sealed. A visiting scientist wished to try and reduce the LN2 consumption rate (so they could sleep through the night) by increasing the number of these bolts since there was plenty of space to do this. I contacted the company that designed the detector and they strongly urged that this not be done and insisted that this would void all existing or implied warranties and liabilities. The extra bolt holes were never installed.

On a very humid night with this sleeping scientist at the experiment the pressure relief and tiny dewar fill line iced over one night. Those four bolts were stretched until they snapped from the liquid to gas over pressure. Nobody was hurt, the detector was easily repaired, the scientist was woken but underwear was soiled. The incident report had an interesting calculation in it that was not mentioned anywhere in the text. If the proposed number of extra bolts were added to the lid, the bolt strength would have exceeded the aluminum case burst pressure pressure.

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#16
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/03/2014 6:54 PM

Point was that the vessel was not designed for vacuum service.

As the internal pressure was lowered it failed, in a pretty spectacular way.

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#19
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/06/2014 9:59 AM

"if this car was moving the wheels may have stayed on the track."

Look closely at the car during the implosion, the trucks get pulled off the ground about 4-6 inches before Gravity shakes of its *WTF* and remembers its job.

Only takes 2-3 inches to pop a rail wheel off the track, so if that had happened while the car was rolling, it would have been a case of Train Car Dominoes, and a Very Bad Day for the rail company AND the community the train was in when it happened.

(Notice how trains never seem to have problems in the middle of B.F. Nowhere? They always seem to have their disasters in 'sleepy little communities unaware of the potential danger rolling through town.')

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#20
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/06/2014 11:04 AM

I stand by my comment or do you need a link for a definition of the word "may". It differs from words and implications of certainty in a significant way.

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#21
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/06/2014 1:08 PM

I understand your choice of words, I personally reserve statements such as "it may stay on the tracks if it was moving" (when spoken straight) for when I don't have a voice in the back of my head saying "Yeah, right, it's got two chances of doing that: a snowballs' chance and a <culturally insensitive variant expunged>'s chance."

Said straight, it comes off as hopeful, as if the event was more likely than unlikely. Now, if it were said thusly, "It MAY(eyeroll) stay on the tracks if it was moving." Then the sarcasm is clear, and the statement points out the low probability of the predicted event.

(Sorry if I'm going grammar nazi here, I just finished working out a questionnaire designed to extract information about employee understanding of a manual, Specifically designed to pull out the information in the face of 'Yeah, yeah, I got it' responses. Getting useful answers from these people is literally like pulling teeth with no Novocaine.)

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#18
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Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/04/2014 5:25 AM

That's it!

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#17

Re: Looking for Information on Vacuum Chambers

10/04/2014 3:43 AM

You could try searching for rectangular flat surfaces stress, thickness, or pressure formulas. Full vacuum is approximately 14.7 psi. Hoop stress applies to cylindrical surfaces. If you can make your surfaces suitably rounded, thinner material will suffice (e.g., fairly shallow bowl and dome shapes).

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