Previous in Forum: Generator with OLTC TX Parallell with Grid   Next in Forum: Use of Pad Mounted Distribution Transformers
Close
Close
Close
9 comments
Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 19

Turbine Selection for Hydro Power

11/04/2014 12:42 AM

In two 100 mw hydel power plant, one has less velocity of water and high volume of discharge and another one is high velocity of water and less volume of discharge here how the turbine selection differs?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32161
Good Answers: 838
#1

Re: Turbine selection for hydro power

11/04/2014 2:29 AM

Er, on the basis of the quantity of water and the head available, perhaps?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
5
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 143
Good Answers: 4
#2

Re: Turbine selection for hydro power

11/04/2014 3:45 AM

Please also see this topic:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/98123/Hydro-Power

Some of the referenced literature links include good overviews.

Turbine selection is based on criterions like head, flow as well as head variations and flow variations. Construction details, access and logistics can play a role too.

For 100 MW turbines we can forget all those exotic versions found in small hydro. Indeed if we talk about 100 MW per turbine there are mostly only Pelton (up to about 420 MW), Francis (up to about 850 MW) and Kaplan (up to about 300 MW) turbines left.

Pelton are for high head (up to close to 2000 m), typically for hydroelectric plants with dam(s) and relatively low flows. Francis for medium to low heads, and Kaplan mostly for very low heads.

With Peltons you can use one or several injectors though bearing load unbalance should be avoided, there is single regulation (injector needle, usually driven by a servocontrolled hydraulic cylinder called "servomotor" in the hydropower business). Though very small Peltons only have one injector.

Francis are also single-regulated (opening of the distributor, also usually with one or more servocontrolled hydraulic cylinders which actuate all guide vanes together though a ring mechanism though some larger units can have one servomotor per guide vane).

Kaplan turbines are more complex to regulate because they require a double regulation as there is the distributor and the pitch of the rotor blades. Regulation is performed digitally by controllers based on the turbine data as efficiency depends on head, flow, distributor opening and blade pitch. The software is way more complex than for Pelton or Francis.

Serious turbines of the discussed sizes are mostly manufactured by a few major companies like Andritz, Voith Hydro, Alstom... who'll custom design turbines for each project as there's nothing like standard turbines in those power ranges. Maybe the most important point is the efficiency as even a difference of 0.3 % can represent a lot of money if you run a large turbine 24/24 h.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: srilanka
Posts: 2725
Good Answers: 5
#6
In reply to #2

Re: Turbine selection for hydro power

11/05/2014 12:05 AM

When the water level in the reservoir drops,hence drop,do you need to do adjustments to blade pitch or angle.

__________________
pnaban
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 729
Good Answers: 2
#3

Re: Turbine selection for hydro power

11/04/2014 5:38 AM

you mean low head and high volume and vice versa?yes turbines will differ .

__________________
To avoid crticism do nothing,say nothing,be nothing
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 143
Good Answers: 4
#4

Re: Turbine selection for hydro power

11/04/2014 6:36 AM

I mentioned just some rough guidelines, there are more formal methods explained in many books and articles you can find online.

Also there are no hard and fast rules, especially when flow and head are in ranges where several turbine types are possible. In some cases for indentical flow and head you will find examples of two different hydropower plants, each of them using a different turbine type.

Here we talked about large turbines which always drive generators directly (i.e. turbine speed is the same as the generator speed) and all those generators are synchronous generators. In small hydro you can also sometimes find asynchronous generators as well various forms of speed increasing transmissions (belts, gears or whatever).

While more complex questions can't be answered by quickly googling, many basics can be found if spending a couple of minutes or hours searching online.

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 24
#5

Re: Turbine Selection for Hydro Power

11/04/2014 10:19 AM

General std and most valuable design selection of Turbine normally lies on Head (waterfall height) which is fundamental basis on design criterial....however there are some other issues to be considered depends upon how it fits...

According to different electrical stds.. it is recommended..

-any head below 30m Kaplan Turbine is recommended

-between 30m to 300m Francis Turbine is recommended Option

-any Head above 300m Pelton is an option

Based upon recommended options no string attached... violations is also possible depends upon other design criterial such discharge rate,Cost,Location,Geographical nature, efficiency of Turbine, output of Generator(depends upon Technical analysis and Load demands assesment survey conducted during feasibility studies)....etc

Coming to water Velocity (m/s) and Volume (m3)

Usually Head(H) varies prop with Pressure i e...High H..high Pressure

remember Discharge/flow rate (m3/sec) depends upon volume of water per seconds or peripheral area times flow velocity and.....Discharge rate (m3/sec) varies inversely proportional to Head(H) which is Fundamental of Turbine design Criterial ......THAT means any variation of volume of water per sec can gently interfere Hydro Turbine design and as it varies.. it will always rush you to go for other Turbine design.....

All in all, there are lots of stuffs to be considered during design..not 2 mentioned here but i hope it needs more professional time to re-describle them all and site visit is absolutely crucial..

eg..According to SWECO standard ....They say...Francis Turbine can run up to 600m which is above normal standards.. Can u imagine that????...There are alots of abnomalities that can be ping-pointed during design depends upon how you take a dices, site allocation, surveyed data,climatical condition,Type of model money can buy ( Budget Cost)...etc

......." Without deviation from normal progress is not Possible"........

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: CHENNAI, TAMIL NADU, INDIA.
Posts: 1851
Good Answers: 65
#7

Re: Turbine Selection for Hydro Power

11/05/2014 11:58 AM

Dear Mr muthuk10,

High Velocity of Water will have HIGHER LEVEL OF KINETIC ENERGY, since the FORMULA is 1/2 x M x V^2, hence the Rotor of this Turbine will receieve Higher KINETIC ENERGY and run at HIGHER SPEED, and therefore the size of this Turbine will be SMALLER. As for as power is concerned (w x H)/75 X 1/EFFICIENCY in HORSE POWER. This H.P. multiplied by 0.75 is KW.

LESS VELOCITY will have LESSER KINETIC ENERGY, and hence the Rotor will run at LESSER SPEED, therefore the size of the Turbine will be bigger. For the same Power HIGH VOLUME of DISCHARGE is required. i.e., (W x h)/75 x 1/EFFICIENCY in H.P H.P. X 0.75 = KW.

In the Formula w = Less Quantity of Water, W = Large Quantity of Water, h = Less Head, H = High Head.

DHAYANANDHAN.S

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: srilanka
Posts: 2725
Good Answers: 5
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Turbine Selection for Hydro Power

11/05/2014 10:03 PM

Howmany types of speed governors are available for hydro turbines,on what basis (head,flow,inlet opening/closing etc)one is selected for a particular application.

__________________
pnaban
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 143
Good Answers: 4
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Turbine Selection for Hydro Power

11/08/2014 9:21 AM

Interesting question.

There are basically two families of digital turbine control systems (I don't talke about analogic as well as mechanical systems which are obsolete though still in use), I already mentioned it somewhere:

1) Specialized turbine controls which are typically based on proprietary hardware, also sometimes mixed with industrial PC and/or industrial PLC components (possibly with special I/O modules). Those controls also include a special software. They can be used for anything from a small Pelton to a large 1600 MW steam turbine and come as simple emodule to complete cabinets with touchscreens and redundant controls.

2) Turbine controls based on off-the-shelf components, usually built around one or more PLCs, also in combination with industrial PCs. In such case the hardware concept is nothing really special, the major taks is the software because turbine regulation is not that simple as it may look.

In any case availability an reliability play an important role. In some cases redundant systems are used. Some sub-systems of large turbine controls may be implemented with a 2oo3 (2 out of 3) voting.

AFAIK all major turbine manufacturers offer turbine regulators but you can also buy solutions by 3rd parties.

For water turbines, from a regulation POV there are basically two family of turbines:

1) Single regulated turbines (e.g. Pelton, Francis,...).

2) Dual regulated turbines (e.g. Kaplan though not all Kaplan are dual regulated).

Usually there are several regulation modes depending on operating conditions and operating modes and you can typically also switch bumpless between several modes (parallel tracking of regulators).

For example you can start a Pelton by accelerating at constant angular acceleration (or maybe pass faster resonance speeds zones) and than you can switch over to (nearly) constant speed before starting the sychronization process. Once synchronized you can regulate for constant active power (reactive power or cos phi regulation being handled by the digital excitation control (ACR) though generator active power defines the allowable reactive power range), in some cases you regulate the deflectors to handle quick load changes. In some low load cases you may use only a part of all injectors (nozzles) but you may require balance to protect bearings and reduce mechanical stress, etc. You can even run some turbines without water (maybe just cooling spray because the fan effect heats up the air around the turbine) for cos phi compensation.

For double regulation like large Kaplan it can be way more complex because you've to handle the cam electronically, in some case you go off-cam to optimize for power instead of efficiency, you may have to regulate to avoid overspeed, resonances, excessive turbulence or so.

Common to all large generators is that they're synchronous and therefore unless accidentally forced out-of-step (which must be avoided) they run at a given speed tied to the grid frequency.

There alre also pump-turbine groups. Even more complex stuff.

You could write a whole book about how to regulate water turbines. It also depends on the available instrumentation. For large turbines the efficiency is extremely important, so especially for double-regulated Kaplan you've to be very careful how you optimize you control laws. Also keep in mind that turbine data varies with time, so the optimal control law parameters when new are not necessarily the same as after a couple of years.

Usually the main factor is which flow you're allowed to use, from there you try to optimize its use.

The turbine and excitation controllers receive their control mode selection (for example constant active power and constant cos phi, as well as setpoint information (as absolute setpoint or as correction signals), it's a bit more complicated in real life because large groups can influence grid voltage and grid frequency. Interface can be discrete (digital and analog I/Os) and/or by digital communcation.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 9 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

dhayanandhan (1); nesubra (1); Plimos (3); pnaban (2); PWSlack (1); sunday matembo (1)

Previous in Forum: Generator with OLTC TX Parallell with Grid   Next in Forum: Use of Pad Mounted Distribution Transformers

Advertisement