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Anonymous Poster #1

Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/22/2014 10:23 AM

Hi, I just wanna ask. Is there a possibility of heat energy and light be converted to mass?

I've seen equations like Heat = m*Cp*dT or E=mc2 why given energy of any, mass could not be derived from it. If energy conservation states that matter can not be created or destroyed but it can only change in forms.

Have you heard any experiments on this?

If so, I want to know. I want to convert all energy it mass as in existence.

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#1

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 10:45 AM

It's theoretically possible, but practically rather tricky. See e.g. http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_16-5-2014-15-32-44

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#2

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 10:48 AM

I put a couple of pounds of light in a glass jar but it got away

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#8
In reply to #2

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 6:20 PM

You should have used an earthenware jar, preferably mirror lined. Glass just don't cut it as a light fence.

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#34
In reply to #2

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/24/2014 12:30 PM

No doubt it was Bud Lite! OP needs to study the works one Stephen Hawking. Mass is created from energy in a reverse singularity that took place about 20 billion years ago, some call it the BIG BANG.

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#3

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 12:00 PM

Matter creation happens all the time but it is a little tricky to detect.

Wikipedia is never the last word on any topic but it is often a good introduction.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#14
In reply to #3

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 8:20 AM

But really we have seen or proved this exist?

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 9:31 AM

Yes. It is more commonly observed in particle accelerators where a mass increase happens to the accelerated particles. Mankind has not produced a tangible object from just photon energy. The amount of energy needed is enormously out of our reach.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#28
In reply to #16

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 9:50 PM

A particle accelerator can not even prove recycling of heat to matter. As a matter of fact, you said it need enormous energy to bring about a tiny mass.

Considering all processes in the LHC is adiabatic (no heat loss), well, interestingly, what will happen to those particles?

If mass can then be recycled, implications is it might be that all planets are gaining mass. It's just not a common phenomena or accepted phenomena "materialization of energy".

I've heard a physicist say's so on Discovery channel that when a star dies another is born somewhere in the universe. I thought about, there must be a lot of dumb physicist down there, try to disprove the " 2nd law of thermodynamics".

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 10:35 PM

"One star dies and another is born" is an allusion to the fact that stellar evolution is an ongoing process. Stars are being born at this very moment, just as stars are dying at this very moment, and everything in-between. Every known star in the Universe contains bits and remnants of earlier supernovae as does everything else but primordial hydrogen and helium. There are no known Population III stars anywhere in the Universe as far as we know. All contain elements of earlier generations, now long dead.

I see no problem with their statement at all because it wasn't a statement about thermodynamics nor about mass/energy conservation, but one of stellar evolution.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 11:27 PM

"enormous energy to bring about a tiny mass."

Einstein's mass-energy equation, E = mc2. A 'tangible' mass I think was the wording. Something that is tangible is something that can be experienced with the senses.

The LHC accelerates protons, mainly, but it can work with other particles as well, such as lead nuclei, but none of these are tangible at any level and to make them so requires enormous energy, well beyond the LHC's capabilities. That was my interpretation, anyway.

Protons with enough energy to be tangible have been observed, in the form of cosmic rays. The Oh-My-God particle was an ultra-high-energy cosmic ray (most likely a proton) detected in October, 1991 over Dugway Proving Ground, Utah. Its observation was a shock to astrophysicists (hence the name), who estimated its energy to be roughly 3×1020 eV (3×108 TeV, about 21 million times more energetic than the LHC's paltry 14 TeV); in other words, a subatomic particle with kinetic energy equal to that of 50 Joules, roughly the same as a baseball traveling at about 60 MPH. That's pretty tangible if you ask me.

In spite of its energy, the OMG particle was still travelling at less than the speed of light. Why? What holds matter of any kind back from exceeding this limit? Mass. And given that mass is the only free parameter of Einstein's mass-energy equivalence relation, it has to increase with increasing energy. It has no choice.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#38
In reply to #30

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/28/2014 9:21 AM

Einstein must have copied it from Newton and make implication

see

d(mv)/dt = m dv/dt + v dm/dt; dv/dt = a

Einstien Equation is just a crack of the v dm/dt, since v= ds/dt

Energy = F*ds= v dm/dt * ds = (ds/dt) dm/dt * ds = dm]m (ds/dt)2 = mv2

which Eintein later on realized if all mass (any) would convert to the lightest particles photons that would be it's absolute energy content there is. Just replacing v with c - speed of light.

He copied it from the laws of derivative of Newton having breakdown mass*velocity - momentum

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#4

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 12:05 PM

The first equation Heat = m*Cp*dT has nothing to do with conversion of energy to mass. Remember that the Cp (specific heat capacity) is merely an experimental parameter for a given substance.

The second one gives the exact relation between energy and mass, and you do have cases where two gamma photons are converted to mass. But matter as structured as even a single carbon atom is hardly to create using just 'Energy', our technology is way below that.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#15
In reply to #4

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 8:30 AM

Are all units of energy not unified?

E=mc2 with unit Joules not equal to Joules of m*Cp*dt?

I say this in universal sense. I was just curious to know what if some time in Billion or Trillion years in the universe all heat and light that have been lost will deduced to mass as apart of a cycle.

But yet, this was not proven nor any studies or real phenomenon had confirmed this could be done. Converting energy to mass as same with existence frequency.

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 9:54 AM

One must use the correct unit value. A Joule is kg*m^2*s^-2 so the speed of light must be in meters per second.

As for your cosmology question about what will happen to all of the photon energy produced in the universe? Nobody knows what will happen. There are many competing theories with their own sets of intriguing implications.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 10:12 AM

You'll get a BIG BANG!!!! In theory.

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 12:04 PM

My fave End Times Prophecy is the Higg's field dropping to its ground state somewhere in the Universe (more likely more than one spot) as the result of a quantum fluctuation.

Right now the Universe is a lot like a bowl of supercooled water as far as the Higg's field goes; a mestable state. One tap and it all crystallises starting at that spot and, voila! A totally different Universe, the 'crystallisation' (by analogy) having proceeded from that spot outward at the speed of light. Of course when it hits us, we won't be any the wiser as it is (or will be) moving at the speed of light.

Heat death through entropy never struck me as being much of a story climax, you know?

I dunno, should I buy that new carpet?

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 12:12 PM

I didn't hear about that scenario. I wonder if the LHC might stumble into creating a ground state Higg's field. There are two related good things I can think of that will happen if that happens. There will be no bankers left to collect all the outstanding loans. There will also be no lawyers try to skim everything and everyone.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 12:24 PM

Come now, they're both important sources of protein.

The Big Crunch, but not the one envisioned in the usual literature, should the Universe reverse its expansion 'naturally' and fall back on itself?

No, this crunch is a wee bit more dramatic. When the field collapses, the mass of everything will shoot through the roof, trillions of times.

Imagine the business Curves will get then.

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#25
In reply to #22

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 7:17 PM

We are both dipping into the same macabre soup that a month earlier others would just dismiss as holiday madness.

It no longer matters about the quality of the protein source when all of the carnivores and omnivores in range are also deceased.

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#27
In reply to #20

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 9:39 PM

Heat Death was the classic and inevitable carpet, modern physicist just didn't much notice it's significance other than "The Fund Me Stuff"

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#31
In reply to #27

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 11:58 PM

Well, that's one way of looking at it, I guess, but if we want to go down that road, why not just cut to the chase, cut all funding for any kind of quest for knowledge, climb back up into our separate trees and watch our descendents discover fire all over again?

<unsubscribe>

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#35
In reply to #20

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/24/2014 12:36 PM

New carpet maybe, hold breath, no.

All of the speculation matters not one whit until we figure out "dark energy", and "dark matter". Good news, one of our space probes maybe just detected an artifact of dark energy/matter emitted from our sun, detected as X-ray photons being emitted at an odd place in sky where view point has little to no X-ray background.

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#32
In reply to #15

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/24/2014 12:20 AM

Mathematically the mass can be deducted from both parts of the equation:

mc2= E= Heat = m Cp dT /m

means c2 = Cp dT

what do you make out of this one?

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Anonymous Poster #1
#39
In reply to #32

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/28/2014 9:33 AM

holds true to the conservation of energy first law of thermodynamics, yet the second law limits it.

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#41
In reply to #32

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

12/02/2014 11:54 AM

A silk purse?

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#5

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 1:34 PM

LynDoor™Industries has just released the MassMaster POLITICIAN 2016.

This amazing technical miracle turns hot air directly into gold.

This will save the world with its ability to turn a useless item into a seemingly worthwhile commodity.

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#11
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Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 11:45 PM

Lyn, I think that you should review prior art to ensure that there are no infringement issues.

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#12
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Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/23/2014 12:36 AM

Prior art? Infringement?

Those well schooled in the art would know that no intellectual property is involved here.

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#6

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 1:42 PM

Think the opposite. Very small amounts of mass can release very large amounts of energy. Where E= Joules

c=(3x108 m/sec^-1)^2

M=kg

From google somewhere: So 1 kg of mass can release energy of:

E = (1 kg)×(3×108 m/sec^-1)^2 =

9×10^16 kg Joules

1 watt=1 joule/sec and 100 watts = 420 watts/sec

The energy released by 1 kg of mass could light the 100 watt bulb for about 408 Billion years. Conversely, you will require all that energy, (9x10^16 Joules) to get 1 kg of mass. Just what will that mass be as the equation does not define a specific mass of iron, carbon, etc? Just a mass. The endeavour may not be very practical.

I think my math is right but...subject to review. The exponents do not seem to follow submit button but show ok on the review. Why?

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#7

Re: HEAT & LIGHT ENERGY CONVERTED TO MASS

11/22/2014 2:34 PM

Ancient secrets, secret plans, unknown technology....we have it all at Solar enterprises send $19.95 for secret plans of

MASS TO ENERGY CONVERTER

Beware of cheap copies!!!

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#9

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/22/2014 6:57 PM

It happens all the time but, as others have posted, it's tricky to detect. Take the lowly electron for instance. Not very interesting. Everyone knows about electrons. But electrons, for all their familiarity are strange beasts at the very least - and I mean that literally.

Electrons have no size as far as we know. They have mass, charge and spin, but no size, so what happens to the strength of the electric field around an electron as you draw closer and closer; arbitrarily close in fact? Does it shoot towards infinity?

It tries, but at some point the field strength is so high, at infinitesimal distances, that instead of increasing, it forms virtual particles that flicker in and out of existence. Nature hates infinities and virtual particle production is what nature does to keep the field strength from going to infinity.

It happens continuously, even with the humble electron. And for so long we thought we knew it so well.

Really, we don't even know what mass is. Not really. We know even less about electrons.

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#10

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/22/2014 7:32 PM

Look, if you want to convert energy into mass, just radiate some plant seeds in well tilled and watered ground. When you want the energy back, just burn the plants that have stored the energy.

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Anonymous Poster #2
#36
In reply to #10

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/27/2014 11:50 AM

I think ,that you make a joke which is not bad but what you write is totally wrong. Light energy is only used to make the chemical reactions which are not at variable mass.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/27/2014 12:22 PM

No, the stored energy in the chemical bonds is a change in mass. That increase in mass is many, many, many orders of magnitude smaller than the mass of the chemical reactants but it is a change in mass none the less.

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#40
In reply to #37

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/28/2014 9:40 AM

All chemical reactions are Newtonian and mechanical in nature I say.

say for example

C+O2= CO2 all mass was conserved.

Except for fusion & fission of course.

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#13

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/23/2014 1:20 AM

All energy can convert to mass.

When you get your car up to speed, its mass increases slightly, but this is small enough to be undetectable with our instruments. Do the calcs m = K.E. / c*c. For a one tonne car at 100 kph that is about 10^-11 kg. I wouldn't worry about your car putting on weight, its losing (or rather shedding) its weight as rust much faster.

Heat and light can be converted also. There is usually a threshold energy level that has to be overcome before this change occurs. However there is a finite possibility, tho small, that conversion will happen despite the threshold. Don't you just love quantum physics, which allows particles to go thru solid walls!

It takes a lot of IR to create mass because it is so low grade, or it may not happen at all (see above).

Light, particularly UV, transfers energy to a body (thus increasing its mass infinitesimally), but this is quickly reradiated or converted to a lower grade form of energy eg voltage as in solar panels.

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#19

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/23/2014 11:52 AM

Insects have been doing it for millions of years.

I once saw a 1/10th of a gram wasp turn a 300 pound man into instant energy!

He may have gone FTL at some point.

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#23
In reply to #19

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/23/2014 12:48 PM

Potential energy, stored in the dude from last night's chili. If it was from the same restaurant I ate at last week, he wouldn't have needed a wasp to start the 'chain of events...'

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#24

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/23/2014 7:01 PM

The difficulty with your question is that it implies that we know what mass is, whereas, it is not the unambiguous quantity that most people think it is. Mass and energy are largely interchangeable and of the two energy is the most easily definable. This is why masses of fast moving particles in colliders are measured in units of energy. When most people think about the mass of an object they have a picture of putting the object on a scale and deriving its mass from the weight of the object, ie, its downward force (weight) due to gravity.

There are two difficulties with this concept. The first is that mass depends on the relative speed of the observer and the object being measured (this has experimentally verified). This is why there is the concept of a "rest mass: which is defined as the mass of a particle when it is stationary relative to the person doing the measuring.

Now assume you have an infinitely sensitive scale and you put an object on it. Even though the object is at rest relative to you, any object you can pick up is made up of many particles which are all moving (oscillating/vibrating) relative to each other and you. This is a measure of the heat of the object. Since these particles aren't at rest the total mass of the object is higher than the rest mass of the individual particles. The hotter the object the higher this vibration speed which means that the weight of the object (on your imaginary infinitely sensitive scale) will appear higher the hotter it gets (not measurable on any real scale). So heat already acts as if it is being converted to mass. It is not being converted to "rest mass" however, which is what you seem to be after.

The second difficulty with the concept of mass as weight in a gravity field is that energy (including light) is affected by gravity in the same way as mass. This has also been experimental verified. So if you had a theoretical box that could contain light sitting on an infinitely sensitive scale and you added light to it in some way so it remains in the box you would see an increase in the total weight of the box equal to the energy pf light you had added divided by C2. So light also behaves as if it has mass just not rest mass.

An example of proposed experiments to collide photons and create particles with rest mass has already been provided in a previous post.

Lets imagine if there was a process that could convert heat to rest mass. You hot object would need to cool to a lower temperature and additional particles would be created with a total mass equal to the heat energy difference divided by C2. Particle colliders do something similar by colliding fast moving particles and creating new particles whose total rest masses is greater than the rest masses of the particles being collided. The kinetic energies of the particles being collided is converted into rest mass.

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/23/2014 9:32 PM

Yes but even in the collider (LHC) all processes produce entropy right, even so that some particles gain mass because of the enormous energy to slingshot its particle speed closer to light?

It seem that inevitably, where does all mass go (to perdition)?

Are very interesting field or subject matter to find or to research.

What could be the end point or final state of a black hole? Is there any theory there is what could be it? Probably, recylcling of matter or mass. If energy is conserved in the universe (all Energy equations will be unified).

Might be God only knows the conversion of Heat and Light of the universe, because all physicist fail to prove there is.

By Second Law of Thermodynamics, all matter is heading to a Thermodynamic Death.

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#33
In reply to #26

Re: Heat and Light Energy Converted to Mass

11/24/2014 9:12 AM

Gee, these two commentators might actually make some sense of the conversations around my coffee group each week. I can't when they exceed my BS. Yes all matter goes to the black holes and we have one in our town http://www.blackholesurplus.com/ed-grothus.html

The problem with black holes is that you can't shut them down. The owner's kids have been trying to shut this one down since Ed died but can't seem to do it

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