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Record Sea Ice?

11/24/2014 12:58 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2681829/Global-warming-latest-Amount-Antarctic-sea-ice-hits-new-record-high.html"America's National Snow And Ice Data Center, which is funded by NASA, revealed that ice around the southern continent covers about 16million sq km, more than 2.1 million more than is usual for the time of year"

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#1

Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 1:47 PM

I wanted to check this article and found this on the "National Snow And Ice Data Center" (reference in the link); http://nsidc.org

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

I'll quote the first paragraph;

"Arctic sea ice continued to expand throughout the month of October, remaining at near-average levels on the Atlantic side and below average on the Pacific side. In the Southern Hemisphere, Antarctic sea ice has declined after reaching its record maximum in October and is now nearly within two standard deviations of the long-term average."

We'll just have to wait to see if the sea ice keeps expanding in the arctic. This last cold spell here in the north was not a normal event, but within statistical occurrences.

Thanks for posting this. So the models are wrong, but we will continue to use them as rational for going crazy on CO2 emission as the cause.

I posted this before, and he is part of the 80% of scientist that disagree with global warming theory; ▶ Dr Don Easterbrook Exposes Climate Change Hoax - YouTube

His claim is that we are in a cooling stage currently. You'll notice no one is listening to his presentation to Washington state representatives. Politicians and the propaganda news media have phase locked that global warming is the absolute result of carbon dioxide emissions.

My belief (right or wrong) is that man has affected temperatures where they live. To me it's the deforestation. Combine this with mono cultures of crops that are short, and do not provide enough depth of green insulation of the sun from the ground, and the 'concrete jungle' that continues to increase in surface area everywhere fit for life.

I'm not a climatologist, so if you disagree with my comments, just chalk this up to me making stuff up.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 2:10 PM

I like the link. for me the true story lies in the numbers and long term trends.there are those that take statistical blips and make bold predictions that can pan out to be "Chicken Little" in nature. a former vice president predicted a few years ago that all the sea ice would be gone by 2014. I think reports from science like I've posted give rational people data that doesn't come with an excuse to increase taxes or legislate businesses into extinction is worth a look.

scaring people with junk science can work until the average person sees real data that makes sense.

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#4
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 3:31 PM

I have read a book Evidence Based Climate Change, by Dr. Easterbrook and would recommend it. Not a real easy read if you have little science but easy enough. Another geologist, Dr. Ian Plimer, wrote a similar book, Heaven and Earth, and has been chastised by the alarmist sector. Also recommended. Both these geologist independently came to the same conclusions about CO2 as a greenhouse gas.

I have only watched the youtube to 30 minutes and will try to complete it later when my wife thinks it is OK. However, one question on the use of record temperatures did bother me. In order for a temperature to be a record, it must be the hottest up to that point. So in the 1930s we had many records broken. The next time the record must be broken the temperature would have to be higher than the previous record. So 2000 records/yr are set in the first decade of this century. I am not sure if that is proof of cooling or proof of warming. Because at the same time we are seeing record trends in cooling particularly in the winter. Further the overall temperatures have been declining since 1998. I think using records for heat as set by a weather station may just be an indication that we have more weather stations than the 1930s. Statistics, you gotta love them. I will comment further as I watch Dr Easterbrook's presentation.

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#5
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 4:15 PM

Some of these alarmists' talk strikes me as being like the breaking news where the body of a local statistician was found, his having drowned in a lake whose average depth is one inch.

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#10
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 5:22 PM

Yeah. Good one. Just watch out for those maximums.

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#11
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 5:30 PM

And the minimums we can safely ignore, just like the alarmists do. Any Global Warmer who considers ALL the facts isn't worthy even of half.

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#22
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 6:59 PM
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#3

Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 3:00 PM

note to Buffalonians, hold on it's getting warmer....

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#32
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 8:33 AM

Unfortunately, they know that - now they are having floods.

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#36
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 10:45 AM

Yeah, they would have preferred a longer cold spell, so they could cart the snow off to somewhere that wouldn't be hurt by all the sudden icemelt flooding, Joisey, perhaps. (Not like you CAN do much to make Joisey worse, based on all the jokes.)

(Self-marking as OT for the cheap-shot at Jersey.)

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#38
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 11:17 AM

One very good thing out of this - apparently their Bills like to play at Ford Field - 2 for 2 there this year.

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#6

Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 4:56 PM

Sadly, the alarmists have no interest in science and have turned man made global warming into a religion that is driven by political hacks.

I'm thinking that we may have to get used to being cold for awhile. We should be preparing for this right now, but instead are still stupidly chasing after nonexistent warming.

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/dark-winter-cold-global-cooling/2014/11/16/id/607672/

I'll admit that they have a lot of gall though. Despite scientific data proving them wrong over and over again, they just keep on insisting that we're getting hotter.

http://www.c3headlines.com/ice-core-data/page/4/

Enjoy the holiday...we've got some nasty surprises coming next week.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/24/white-house-quietly-releases-plans-for-3415-regulations-ahead-of-thanksgiving-holiday/

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#7
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 5:00 PM

No doubt the result of the global-finance-oriented G20 Summit in Brisbane where Abbot got to shake hands with CostelloObama.

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#8
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 5:09 PM

Did anything noteworthy happen at the summit? I haven't heard a word and haven't bothered to look into it.

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#9
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 5:18 PM

They've all been pretty mum about it but everyone's sure Abbot made an arse of himself.

Again.

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#19
In reply to #6

Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 6:40 PM

Has anyone seen any alternative explanation of ice-core data CO2 vs sea level change?

Is it possible that continent wide forest fires occurred raising the CO2 level, and exposing an enormous area to the sun, raising the temperature, and causing a sea level change?

Just what is cause and effect? Is the increased level of CO2 causing the temperature rise, or is it the result of drought from the loss of a forest (or loss of mega forests, caused the drought). And the CO2 increase is just the result of loss of forest (and the CO2 being released by rotting vegetation, or fires, and other sources).

So the model computes that CO2 in the atmosphere, captures the suns heat in a runaway condition. This is a theory. Or is the soot and ash the cause of temperature increase as seen from volcanoes.

As this is not my area of study, I have no experience what ideas were talked through by experts.

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#23
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 8:10 PM

Unfortunately the ice core data is only able to give us atmospheric composition and temperatures based on the ice itself.

I'd love to know the exact cause of the massive expansion and contraction of CO2 levels before humans arrived, but there's no way to pinpoint it. I would think that the ash from massive fires or volcanic eruptions would show up in the ice cores.

Unless they know the cause and it's being supressed for political reasons.

I'm on board with Casey in thinking that sun activity is the culprit behind the warming and cooling. Kinda makes sense, since the the sun is a big hot ball of fire that doesn't maintain a static state.

What truly fascinates me about the ice core data is the regularity of the changes that have taken place over millions of years.

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#12

Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 5:31 PM

CLIMATE doesn't change over 1,5 or 15, years regardless of what any of the "experts" say. Same with global thermal cycles.

Computer programs are not confounded by anything. They can't think.

CO2 may contribute to global warming, just as many other atmospheric gasses and pollutants may. They do cause air pollution.

Obama didn't do it. Dark skinned people in the White House just can't cause climate change.

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#13
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 5:40 PM

If Obama has as much power as everyone ascibes to him, he would be nothing less than a god, descended from Olympus. A Zeus amongst mortals.

He's not a bluddy god no matter how much we'd like to pretend he is - and we are pretending.

Blaming Obama - or any other one person in any office - is a cheap shot. What of our representatives who just told the NSA, "Hey, guys, all that surveillance is okay with us!"

If they are supposed to be representing us but aren't (I certainly didn't vote in that direction, did you?) why aren't we bitching at them and, better yet, firing their arses for not doing their jobs, but does anyone do anything apart from grumbling that they're all incompetent? No, everyone's too busy bitching about Obama. He's just one player among many, many others. The handy Lightning Rod on Washington's roof. That he's black just makes it all the more convenient for the haters.

If we want action, contact our reps. If we don't get it, fire their arses and get someone who will.

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#14
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 5:56 PM

As usual, I like the ice core data. Throughout the history of the planet, CO2 has always increased after global warming, not before. There's no reason to believe that that has reversed itself because we drive cars.

Computer programs? Climate modeling? Garbage in, garbage out. The only way computers can be wrong is if they are fed bad information.

Your obsession with race and skin color is really starting to get creepy and annoying.

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#15
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 6:04 PM

MY obsession? That's funny. It's also like the pot calling the kettle black, as my mother used to say.

Shall I quote some of your more memorable Barack/Michelle tirades from late night Face Book rants of yours?

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#18
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 6:23 PM

I'm not done ranting, and none of it has anything to do with race.

I'll do everything in my power to shut down a Marxist that happens to be purple. Color means nothing! You should get a dose of reality and read the links that I post on FB....including those from the Conservative African Americans. A group that is as tired of being lied to and screwed as I am. There are millions of us, and we are all colors. The race card is finished, and continuing to play it looks as silly as insisting that we're still in the grip of global warming.

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#17
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 6:12 PM

"Computer programs? Climate modeling? Garbage in, garbage out. The only way computers can be wrong is if they are fed bad information."

Actually, not always. Even though computers are deterministic (feeding them the same data, all else being equal, always results in the same answers), there are the mathematics of the models to consider, and where 'better' mathematics is not the answer. For instance ...

At MIT Lorenz (not Lorentz, the physicist, spelt with a 't') in the 1960s wrote a simple program that pretty much dispelt the current notion that long-range weather forecasting was feasible if only you had enough information about current conditions. Turns out, it isn't feasible and never will be, and it's not the data's fault.

It's that weather patterns are extremely sensitive to minute influences. That new anemometer on your rooftop might in six months mean a difference in whether India's east coast is decimated by a hurricane or is graced with sunny weather. The Buttefly Effect. That's where the term came from; Lorenz' three simple differential equations that modelled the climate on an ideal, smooth, perfect planet. Adding Reality only made it worse.

Thing is, present-day climate models have these same traits; infinite sensitivity to changes in certain variables. Infinite sensitivity and there's no way around it, not even principle. There is no computer on Earth or in the heavens accurate enough to predict changes in climate to the degree these people are claiming. It's not a problem with GIGO, either, it's in the nature of the mathematics themselves. It's not a flaw in the mathematics because they're modelling the way Nature really works. It is Nature herself: she will not be predicted on by mere mortals and never will.

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#20
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 6:41 PM

how do you expect the Chicken Littles of the world to get that constant flow of grant money to serve up the numbers the Al Gores want with that attitude?

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#24
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Re: record sea ice?

11/24/2014 8:21 PM

Ssssssh!

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#42
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 1:29 PM

As you stated, given the same data, all else being equal, the computer will give you the same answer. That is a deterministic model. What Lorenz demonstrated was that it doesn't take much of a change in your data input to change your deterministic output. The effect of rounding off a couple of decimal digits changed his model's output. Lorenz likened the degree of input change to the effect of a bird flapping its wings, later changed to a butterfly flapping its wings. But, as his model poorly represented reality, it is a mistake to then say this sensitivity to inputs carries over into reality. We must always remind ourselves that the Model is not Reality. (Or, as my Marine Captain friend phrases it, "The map is not the terrain.") Put another way, Lorenz's model was sensitive to changes of input on the order of magnitude of a butterfly flapping its wing in the real world. With the number of decimal places he had to work with on his computer, I would contend that even that analogy is poetic hyperbole, not an actual comparison of orders of magnitude. But, given that the model is sensitive, there is no reason to suppose Reality is sensitive.

If the Butterfly effect were true, I would think we must consider the introduction of Night Baseball in the worlds' weather models. It is conceivable that allowing burly men to swing big pieces of wood late into the night as well as all day must stir up quite some commotion somewhere. However, the change from axes to chainsaws in the lumber industry must have some offset effect.

Your point that models can be sensitive to only a finite number of variables is well taken. We don't know what all the variables are. We don't know how big that finite number is. We don't know if we are attributing a signal to one variable when what we are seeing is a confounding of two or more variables. After Newton's Laws became known, someone stated that now, if we knew the positions and velocities of every particle in the Universe, we could predict the future. Then came the 3-body problem.

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#43
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 1:53 PM

And then came quantum mechanics and, with it, the knowledge that nothing is completely deterministic, not even computers.

I did point out that Lorenz' model got worse as Reality was added. Those same equations are present in various models. At their roots, current climate models use variants of those same equations that Lorenz did (as well as others, progress being what it is), with similar results. Minute differences in conditions at one point in time propagate downstream to produce radically different conditions at a later time, 'how much time' being the only dependency.

Weather patterns can be thought of as 'attractors' in the mathematical sense. Like Lorenz' attractor, their behaviour overall remains within certain boundaries but, within those boundaries, they can vary wildly with only the most minute imaginable change in parameters. It's not the fault of the models nor of the mathematics; Nature really is sensitive to slight variations in parameters; variations all the way down to quantum fluctuations. She can't get any more non-deterministic than that.

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#48
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 4:33 PM

Right, but when speaking of climate computer models, we know that data that contradicted the theory was left out, therefore, the computers spit out the horrible conditions that would come from runaway warming.

I read a bunch of the damning emails from climate-gate, and those guys should have been stripped of their credentials and tossed in jail for fraud. Instead, we pretend that climate-gate never happened, and the scientists involved are still hailed as geniuses.

The fraud continues.

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#50
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 4:36 PM

Well, feeding any computer program the wrong data is not the model's fault; the fault lies with those having the ulterior motive of schnookering the public. You can't fault the model for that.

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#52
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 4:50 PM

I know. We hear that the models were wrong, as if it was the computer's fault...or it was some fluke, when we should be hearing about the fraud that was committed that caused the models to be wrong.

Now that the politicians, the UN and media are on board, climate change, AGW...whatever, has taken on a life of it's own. None of it based in scientific fact. They are all still following the flawed models and pushing the original agenda.

I think Algore's gonna explode if any more facts get released to the public. People just don't care anymore, trillions of dollars are sliding away into the abyss, and the top fraudsters are going insane.

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#53
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 4:52 PM

It's the Algore-ithm's fault.

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#57
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 6:23 PM

Good one!

He's a busy guy. I'll always appreciate him for inventing the internet.

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#59
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Re: record sea ice?

11/25/2014 7:08 PM

The one that's heating the planet?

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#79
In reply to #17

Re: record sea ice?

11/26/2014 12:16 PM

Has anyone gotten a research grant to find out what species of butterfly is causing these storms?

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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/24/2014 6:06 PM
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#21

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/24/2014 6:41 PM

Now we've all agreed that colour has something to do with sea ice levels, let's further agree that 'IHS Engineering 360' is the right way to spell 'Facebook.'

Outta here. This crap turns my stomach.

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#25

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/24/2014 9:44 PM

Last summer the ice in my freezer compartment developed a lot of ice. Proof that it was really not hot and humid outside.

But I really don't want to get involved in trying to explain what a counter-intuitive side-effect is. So I won't subscribe to this, but I might drop in now and then.

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#27
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 5:22 AM

Read the link above with Casey and his scientifically based prediction of several decades of colder weather coming.

One of his primary arguments against the warming alarmists, is that the computer models that they not only created, but continue to rely on, don't allow for any pauses in warming...much less a reversal. They were the basis for Algore's prediction of zero ice by 2014, flooded coastal cities, etc.

So, despite the fact that we now know the models were completely wrong, they are still being used by the UN, scientists that are in it for the money, and the president of the US is using them to shape domestic energy policy.

The models were WRONG! People need to accept that and move on. Instead of being happy that the earth isn't dying, the alarmists just get angrier...like yelling really loud might restart the warming. It's getting embarrassing to continue to hear people in power talking about global warming, and continuing the fear mongering, despite the fact that warming is at a full stop and moving beginning to move in the other direction.

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#46
In reply to #27

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 3:50 PM

Would you post the link again? I don't see anything posted by anyone named Casey.

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#51
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 4:40 PM

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/dark-winter-cold-global-cooling/2014/11/16/id/607672/

There are youtube videos too. Unfortunately, he's so pissed off about the lies that are being told that it shows in his talks.

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#26

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 2:47 AM

The wise thing those noble characters that stand above us and make innocent, good will decisions for us should do (and probably will do), is to also heavily tax those that have no CO2 emissions, same as taxing those that emit dreaded CO2. And voila, both cases covered. WTF? S.M.

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 7:02 AM

The most curious thing I find about the CO2-Global Warming debate is there is never any mention of the exponentially increasing human population and all the other impacts our population has on the environment and climate. Most specifically the fact that the great majority of human generated CO2 comes from the agriculture activities required to feed itself. Add that to the fact that the associated deforestation decreases the environment's ability to sink CO2, and one can easily see what the real root issue with CO2 is. That is if CO2 is the issue in the first place. Seems obvious to me the deeper root is the human population and all its detrimental environmental effects. I suppose there's no political leverage in that though.

All scientists would agree the climate is constantly but slowly changing. It always has and always will, with or without mankind's influence. Nature simply dictates life adapt. It takes a special kind of fool to think mankind could, or should try to manage the climate when we can even manage ourselves. Could it be that nature and climate change will actually be the end solution to the root of the problem? I would bet on it.

http://www.livescience.com/9557-humans-force-earth-geologic-epoch.html

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 7:27 AM

There's no doubt that we should change our ways...voluntarily.

I like the movement that's gaining momentum, of going "small".

If we were all to focus on our basic needs and comfort, and voluntarily sacrificed some of our obsession with constant entertainment and prestige, I think it would go a long way toward cleaning things up.

The "less is more" lifestyle is slowly gaining traction due to our diismal economy, and I'm glad to see it.

Yeah, I know...the stock market hit a record high yesterday....and it means absolutely nothing to the majority of struggling Americans.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 7:41 AM

the oceans are and have always been the largest absorbers of c02, not forests

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#31
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 8:15 AM

Planting trees is never a bad idea though.

There are simple steps that people can take to lessen their impact.

I use native plants in my yard that don't require maintenance, planted drought resistant, slow growing Zoysia grass, keep a pretty decent vegetable garden, etc.

My reasons sort of stem from me being cheap and lazy though, so despite the fact that I'm saving the planet, I don't fit the "green" stereotype.

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#34
In reply to #28

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 9:01 AM

I'm not claiming there are no climate changes, both short and long term, including cycles and random looking bursts, even specifically temperature changes, up or down, ones that could potentially harm, but surely force changes to aspects of our civilization, also I'm not excluding the possibility of some kind of human influence on them. On the other hand, I'm also positive that one generation has no moral rights to totally consume or ruin a resource that should be there for generations to come if used conservatively. For me that's a better reason to enforce more control on resources. I'm just overwhelmed by the rush of some "nice" people to benefit themselves using such arguments, falsifying scientific data and taking an argument side with a single criterion, money in their wallet, not any scientific truth. Now you'll be surprised what general public is ready to believe, with the right methods. I'm no theorist. Actually I think most of stupid conspiracy theory BS we hear all the time are left (and helped sometimes) to spread for a reason. Nowadays is not that easy to hide the truth by not letting it come out, it's easier to hide it in a pile of similar looking provable lies. Now on the overpopulation issue. Yes, it is not an easy subject, and most of the current problems are worsened by it. Now imagine the billions of overpopulated regions people to press their perfectly understandable claim for increased share in consumption. The system barely balances as is. And this has already -indirectly- started. How? By the massive illegal immigration from unprivileged countries to more privileged ones, that is only controlled currently by the use of brute force. I'm afraid there are no democratic solutions for such problems. And international talks on the issue is conversation between deaf people. So it beats me. S.M.

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#37
In reply to #34

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 10:58 AM

About 6000 years ago, this thing called punctuation and another called paragraphs was invented by the ancient Babylonians. This is true because I have been told that they also invented beer, which according to Ben Franklin is proof of God (Beer is proof that God loves us). That beer exists is proof that God exists.

AlGore has offered similar proof of global warming. I propose an alternative theory called "Global Warning": Everything we do that is taxable and good for our existence has been proven by alarmists to cause planetary scale destruction. Therefore we have to ban all hot air from politicians, since they are obviously speaking outside the realm of their knowledge. I have been taught all this GHG nonsense since I was a wee tadpole in science class in middle school, and by now the whole Eastern Seaboard (including Foggy Bottoms) was supposed to be under water.

So far the only thing under water is the national budget.

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#39
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 12:20 PM

I'm thinking with no paragraphs, sorry. About national economies collapsing, "globalization" is just that, opening... holes in each vessel, to make them communicating, but all we did is make them sink. Not all, those that really opened holes, some countries just pretended to, and have the advantage on next card deal. S.M.

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#35
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 10:42 AM

"...there is never any mention of the exponentially increasing human population..."

THAT is the key!. ...and no politician will publicly talk about population control, because it would be against religion. (It doesn't much matter which religion). By definition, religion is based on beliefs, not science.

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#40
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 12:32 PM

Well, Science is based on beliefs, too, actually. And faith. Lots of both.

Know anybody who's witnessed the Big Bang firsthand? I don't, but a lot of people believe that it all started that way. That landing on comet 67P? That took a lot faith to launch that payload, expecting it to arrive intact - so much so that they didn't bother insuring it.

People believe and have faith in all kinds of things. Your faith, for instance, that Science has all the answers. Even Carl Sagan, an avowed atheist, would not admit to that kind of faith but reserved judgment instead that there may be things that Science, alone, may never fathom.

I'm siding with Sagan.

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#41
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 1:25 PM

Yes but, Sagan was a pot head.

You've just got to be stoned to see the truth clearly.

I saw it once, long ago and I've been looking for it ever since.

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#47
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 4:01 PM

To me, there is a big difference between faith based on observation and faith based on hope and/or fear.

I have faith there will always be a magnetic field associated with an electric current.

I don't have faith that I'll go either to heaven or hell when I end my time here.

I don't believe science has all the answers; at least not in any foreseeable future. That is especially true when it comes to understanding and predicting human (and inhuman) behavior.

It's pretty awesome to think that Newton could, given enough information, have calculated the trajectory to arrive at and land upon 67P!

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#49
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 4:34 PM

How much do you know about both Religion and Science? Not what you feel you know, based on your opinion on both, but what you actually know through diligent study.

For example, my daughter exclamined one day that she did not like the works of van Gogh. I asked her to name five of his paintings. She could not name even one. Saying you reject a belief based on knowledge is one thing, but quite another to reject it based on feeling.

Newton's trajectory, btw? Newton would have missed that comet by few kilometres. Thankfully, Einstein's trajectory came to the rescue.

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#70
In reply to #47

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 9:34 AM

So then, you must have a ticket to purgatory if not heaven or hell, just kidding.

One can place one's faith in a chair by sitting in it. Faith in a magnetic field by supporting something really heavy with one, or by switching on a motor and expecting it to rotate, faith in electric field when you measure say the conductivity of tap water, then we dive off into electro-magnetics Maxwell, and beyond.

For every EΨ there must also be an HΨ. Otherwise, why would young fools fall in love?

The FUN part of science is not necessarily having all the answers (although it would be nice to occasionally hit the mark), but rather it is the pursuit of truth, knowledge, and the American way. It used to be truth, justice, and the American way, but that is BEH (before Eric Holder took office).

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#33

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 8:38 AM

The response you will get from warming fans, if there were any reading this, is that the new ice is sea ice. Land ice is still declining. The sea ice is forming from fresh water from land ice melt, as it freezes at a much higher temperature than sea water. (just read an article with about 30 points for warming fans to use to counter arguments such as this)

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#44
In reply to #33

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 2:06 PM

The whole thing is yet one more farce of left-wingers conspiring to ruin all mankind by removing every last freedom. I think I will go out in my backyard and smoke a cigar this afternoon, while smoking some salmon on grape wood. After that, I may light up a leaf pile and burn that too!

(IT) doesn't stop there.

In recent days a new scandal over the integrity of temperature data has emerged, this time in America, where it has been revealed as much as 40 per cent of temperature data there are not real thermometer readings.

Many temperature stations have closed, but rather than stop recording data from these posts, the authorities have taken the remarkable step of 'estimating' temperatures based on the records of surrounding stations.

So vast swathes of the data are actually from 'zombie' stations that have long since disappeared.

This is bad enough, but it has also been discovered that the US's National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is using estimates even when perfectly good raw data is available to it - and that it has adjusted historical records.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2681829/Global-warming-latest-Amount-Antarctic-sea-ice-hits-new-record-high.html#ixzz3K6n1Q1Xa
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#45
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 2:09 PM

This all just goes to show that, "When it's a certain outcome you want, no amount of good data is bad enough."

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#54

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 5:53 PM

Well managed to watch the rest of the youtube link and I did enjoy Easterbrook's arguments. There is a vast difference in the presentation from Easterbrook and others compared to those presented by IPCC who seem to claim "consensus" among scientists. The consensus fraud was explained and should raise alarms not for global warming but for the underhanded use of science by IPCC to perpetuate a carbon scam. Governments around the world are clinging to these IPCC postulations and I believe they simply want an excuse to impose taxes on the workers of the world. To visual the difference in the projections, look at the graph used by Easterbrook in the presentation. It is easy to see a big difference. I suspect if you follow the money, you may get some idea of who gains for what reason. Professor Easterbrook has no axe to grind or stake in the carbon game. Can anyone say that about those involved with IPCC.

The IPCC has shut out those who present data that does not fit their narrative. Lakehead university was funded to study polar bear populations. The result was that there is a current increase in polar bear population. The study was stifled by IPCC and dismissed as not essential to their work. Wait a minute. were the polar bears not a poster child to global warming consequences? What are they scared of? I guess we should follow the Money. How many other studies from legitimate science have been stifled because they do not fit the narrative wanted?

In some ways, I was cheering for the alarmist side. Alas, It seems we are in a current cooling and the cooling will likely last my lifetime. I had plans for a banana plantation in Canada. Now I guess that swampland in Florida may be a better idea.

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 5:59 PM

I tend to agree, I think many Europeans that are seeing snow where none is suppose to be are rethinking their "experts"

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#56
In reply to #54

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 6:08 PM

Oopsies.

I guess Mother Nature is sick of their crap, too.

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#58
In reply to #54

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/25/2014 6:32 PM

I haven't seen any evidence that Casey has any potential benefit from his position either...unless you count that it could possibly get him killed.

Glad you got time to finish the video. The one thing that still has me confused, and I don't think Easterbrook was lying, is the ocean acidification. That was something that I bought into, and I'd like to have more details on the extent of it, whether it's a localized issue, or what.

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 12:08 AM

Here is a good tutorial on alkalinity and pH.

The scientists refer not changes in pH but rather changes to alkalinity. The relationship is strong. Alkalinity is really a measure of the water to resist changes in pH. Salty water with very high or saturated measures of CaCO3 will have a very high alkalinity and a very strong resistance to change. Deep ocean waters are saturated with CaCO3.

The pH is a measure of H+ ions. The more hydrogen ions the lower the pH. Rain or precipitation falling through a sky with CO2 actually form H2CO3 or carbonic acid. That in turn releases the hydrogen into the surface of water. Further if the ocean is cold and under saturated with respect to CO2, the ability of the ocean to uptake CO2 is great. CO2 will form carbonic acid in water. And of course that will cause some surface lowering of pH. Most of this is natural and the ability of 400 mg/L of CO2 in the atmosphere is not enough to cause acidic oceans other than some small changes at the surface. Some of the oceans coral reefs are very dependent on stable ocean pH. Of course coral reefs are shallow. They can be vulnerable to low pH rain. I doubt if water around coral reefs found in the tropics are up-taking CO2 because the temperature of the water is too high. The oceans will release the CO2 to the atmosphere. Confused yet. It is late and I am.

Acid rain can occur in areas where there are large releases of CO2 to the environment. As the air picks up CO2 from say coal plants that can cause an increased acid rain. Some inland lakes have very low alkalinity and thus are very quick responders to pH changes. Fish and shell fish do not like that change.

But the ocean is a vast supply of CaCO3 at saturation, thus is well buffered from any widespread change. Arctic waters that are cold will dissolve more CO2 than tropical waters. The CO2 from the atmosphere and the resulting carbonic acid will consume a small amount of the alkalinity. And the alkalinity is great. However, the oceans have been buffering pH for millions of years and these recent industrial spikes will not change that. Do expect some localized changes where industry is a factor for acid rain. For that reason we should not crap in the air but do not blame atmospheric CO2 for drastic changes or any large spread change in ocean pH. I say clean up air but not because of some doomsday scenario with global warming but because it makes sense to clean the air we breath and to protect coral reefs in areas needed.

Cheers.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 5:50 AM

Good post. It appears that man made ocean acidity is another alarmist buzz-term, and one that I was fully believing. I'll look further into any evidence of true acidification.

In the meantime, when it comes to saving the oceans and the corals, I'd recommend a global moratorium on using drag nets to catch fish.

It's one of the most horrible practices in existence. Corals that have been around for probably hundreds of years, and providing fertile feeding grounds for fish, are completely wiped out in a single sweep. It's enough to turn me into an activist.

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#63
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 6:57 AM

Corals have been more affected by fishery and tourism than by any other thing. Coral reefs which are unexplored look incredibly nice while fished areas and tourist attractions are the ones at peril.

Corals have been around for million of years.

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#64
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 7:13 AM

I saw a video somewhere on the practice of drag fishing, in which massive chains hold the nets to the bottom. Not only do the chains completely destroy everything they are dragged over, but they will do this for a single species of fish that garners the most money...everything else is also killed, but is dumped as garbage.

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#68
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 7:49 AM

and.........the bottom are the nurseries for fish that lay eggs.......so wiping out the nursery kills off thousands of the next generation......just ask cod fisherman in newfoundland that used to have unlimited cod for centuries until the dragger's showed up

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#69
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 8:30 AM

Humans are doing plenty of selfish and stupid, (unecessary), things that should be recognized and stopped.

I think the show I watched was about Orange Roughy. The fishermen thought they had an endless supply, and not only do they not reproduce that quickly, but the scientists found that the fish that they were hauling in were 50-70 years old.

I might be wrong on the species.

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#82
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/29/2014 6:16 PM

You are correct. It was a "flash-in-the-pan" fishery!

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#84
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

12/05/2014 7:10 PM

Correct about the Orange Roughy?

I like the play on words, but I'm fervently against squandering our resources.

Properly managed, we can have our cake and eat it too.

I'm pretty much a catch and release angler, and am just fine with eating farm raised catfish or tilapia. Both are really good eating.

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#62
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 6:51 AM

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/81925/Acidification-of-the-oceans

You might want to look at this!

First thing to learn is that the ocean water is already acidic - the deep sea is!

This will lead you to the conclusion that upwelling water will mean a change in the PH value. It also will be clear that those are localised events with water going down one end and coming up another end.

There you go! The rest is just another scam.

Also note the inavailabilty of good data and in the IPCC report a clear note that they have no clue - but! Then the pH measurement is dependend on temperture (and so is solubilty of CO2) with adverse effects of both on the possibility of acidification just due to C02 dissovling.

Did I mention that pH is logarithmic? Oh you get the gist.

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#65
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 7:18 AM

So, we know that colder water takes on more CO2, then we have this:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/indicators/oceans/acidity.html

If you open the "indicator notes" tab on the right, they use very creative language to admit that they don't have a clue.

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#67
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 7:49 AM

I know. Sometimes it just pays to read what they are writing.

My first aha came when I read their first report.

Its like reading comedy if it wasnt so serious!

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#66
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 7:45 AM

One thing that we haven't really touched on, is that Easterbrook shows proof that US government agencies have altered the temperature records from the 1930's to show a warmer climate today.

To me, that's really, really scary.

It brings everything into question...from unemployment numbers to census records, with no way of telling what's real.

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#71
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 9:41 AM

the only employment number worth looking at is the participation rate, everything else is BS

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#74
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 10:30 AM

Normally I would agree, but why should we assume that the labor participation rate is any more accurate than the intentionally changed temperature data from the 1930's?

It's just a number.

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#75
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 10:38 AM

the public has never even heard of it, they assume an unemloyment rate tells the story and it does NOT, millions cant find work or work at a pay they enjoyed for years. when a 1000 works get laid off from a decent job and McDonalds hires 1000 kids for summer work the unemployment number is frozen but people are hurting.

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#76
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 10:57 AM

Yeah, I'm aware of all of it...just like the numbers will be used to tell us that the economy is humming along and unemployment is way down, all based on temporary holiday help.

But think about this...

Easterbrook had his hands on the original 1930's temperature data, from before it had been changed.

What about a college student working on a paper? Would they find the original data or the changed data in the official record?

We depend on government to provide us with accurate data, and to keep all of those records pure. With the money we spend on all of this stuff, it's the least we deserve.

The implications of a government that is willing to go back and change the historical record on anything, is staggering.

They revised the 1930's record back to the original because they got caught, but what else has been changed?

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#78
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 11:13 AM

naive premise my good man.this isn't a puritan world

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#80
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 1:40 PM

Not naive, but I think we have to insist on honesty in our records and history.

Suppose these people are shreddiing documents in the Library of Congress that disagree with their belief system?

We're on a real dangerous path.

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#72
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Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 9:42 AM

There is no greater threat to science than a damnable liar. These government bozos have almost raised themselves to the level of physicians (who think they are God), but they are only self-deceived hooligans, science "carpetbaggers", charlatans, and I can't really say how I feel about them, but it does involve rope, tar, and feathers.

Too bad the good guys in science lose out by sheer weight of the paper chase, but there again eloquence has never been the wheelhouse of most scientists, save for a few. It is always left to a few sane ones to sort out all the mush, push it aside, and then move forward with the supportable truth. The great problem of society today is not politicians (although less of those and more statesmen would be appropriate), not even lawyers, and not the EPA. The great problem is ignorance, and the educational system that allows it, promotes it, and programs the youth into accepting dogma (like "climate change" as being something "we" did). If you accept the programming and question it not, then welcome to the matrix, but you take the blue pill, your eyes will be opened.

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 10:04 AM

If only it was just science that was being altered.

Our federalized education system is further changing history by teaching the youngsters that the pilgrims were bloodthirsty murderers and the first terrorists to arrive.

Texas is ground zero for the progressive agenda. If they take Texas, the rest of the country falls.

http://freedomoutpost.com/2012/11/texas-schools-now-teaching-boston-tea-party-was-act-of-terrorism-and-more/

Happy Thanksgiving.

Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.

Vladimir Lenin

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#77
In reply to #73

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/26/2014 11:01 AM

Yeah. Exactly what I toss and turn at night over. They will ultimately be the death of us all, further proof that a little knowledge, especially twisted, spat upon, and lied about knowledge is a dangerous thing, tantamount to treason.

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#81

Re: Record Sea Ice?

11/27/2014 7:03 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/colorado-mastodon-bones-show-warm-ancient-earth-190530926.htmlthis cant be true! they had no tailpipes or smokestacks to tax back then. further evidence of the warming fraud

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#83
In reply to #81

Re: Record Sea Ice?

12/01/2014 12:11 PM

Must have been all the methane produced from Paleolithic (politicians) and mega-fauna consuming vast quantities of rich grass on the Savannah, all the while being stalked by the Saber-toothed cat, or the Dire Wolf.

Of course, I am being facetious.

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