Floor Joists, Part Deux

Sounds good to me except the first bit.

(Bear in mind I only skim read the whole thing 'cos I haz a short attention span, 'cosI a cat.
Glue and screws will be no good. As a minimum add some side plates of say 1" ply to give a lap joint and something for the glue to stick to. Screw a 2x4 or somesuch all along under the 2x8 with the hole in it.

Bear in mind I have no qualifications for this advice but I do know how wood bends.
Del

Joke solution:- Drill holes the same size as the drain pipe hole along the entire joist to equalize the stress then screw another 8 x 2 up underneath it.

Sort of like this?

http://homerepair.gregvan.com/homeframing/floor-joist-end-reinforceme.jpg

So don't even worry about closing up the crack?

I'd jack everything slowly back into position, then up just a little more. (1/4" max) Close up the crack with some glue and screws.

Then add the plywood side plates, to both sides with good glue, and screws/bolts. Like the picture.

Let everything sit for a week. Then slowly, not all at once lower the jacks.

Good answer, Bad joke.

You need to position the table over the area that has already been corrected, rather than moving it around to every other spongy floor section.

Hi Hannes

Your fix sounds just fine--- not having a picture but just trying to visualise your floor --- one of the other posters suggested truss plates or plywood on the existing joists-- since you want to put a sister joist, use the flat steel nailer plate with the 1 1/8 inch truss nails after you jack up the split, also as someone said, use the joist hangers around the crawl hole, and also one other good , easy and cheap fix is, once you get the joist up and crowned a little, nail a piece of flat steel hurricane strap (it comes on a roll in a box from Simpson ) on the bottom of the joist, centered over the holes for the pipe that probably caused the problem---use lots of nails and make it as long as you can stand, use more of the strap above the holes for the pipe on the side of the new sister joists and, like you have planned, leave the jacks and concrete blocks in place--- then as they settle over the years, give them a turn once in a while and you will be set back a hundred years on the strength of that floor!

Good luck

Expat07

Your house is 137 years old. I would rather bring it down and construct new one as this house has lived its life and is now it is risky for the owners.

Sorry no one lives in "Taj". Well it is a monument with heritage value it will stay as long as possible. Latter on after hundreds of years it may be, like Roman Palaces it will fall like them.

Interesting answer. There've been times when I've fantasized about it coming down, but I don't think it's had too many problems a newer construction wouldn't have. We have had a 20-year-old roof leak, a shorted outdoor lighting fixture that some sprayed water into, etc. We have new electrical and plumbing, and the only real issues are the floors and possibly roof framing, which is what I'm attempting to address.

The entire village where I live is a National Historic Landmark, so nothing could really be torn down, I don't think. Prime examples of Eastlake architecture (see below) or somesuch thing. My wife grew up in a farmhouse built in 1790, so I guess it just runs in the blood to torture ourselves.

Sir,

I agree with you. You have emotional attachment to the house. But structural degeneration of the house is risky. If it collapses it can cause serious accident to people living in the house. Best thing would be to consult local Architect who should examine the house in detail and confirm if it is fit for occupation or it needs major repairs.Best of luck. Vienna is nice city where "Sound Of Music" was produced.

If you live anywhere near SW Minn. I might have some work for you.

Hi Lyn..Advice is as close as this site. Am retired in Cali, but work with homeowners and "friends" , at no charge for advice, as long as the problem is presented clearly. I hope you have conciencious (sp), workers in your area. I hired a fellow to climb under our house and lift up, and re-support my floor insulation. Thinking it was done (as I could only see for the first 10 feet, our so, I paid him. After my plumber finished a job under there a few weeks later, he remarked to me, upon re-emerging from the crawl space--"Hey--Did you know all of your insulation is on the ground??" Expletive, deleted…..

You haven't mentioned length and spacing of your joists. I guess that the sizes are adequate for the span as the building has stood for so long but still it would be good to know that they fit the span tables. Do not use glues. They won't last long ( relatively speaking ) and they can hide early signs of rot. You may need to make/get made custom joist hangers to accommodate the thickness and depth of your joists. Make from 2" (50mm) angle as a minimum. You say they are "end nailed". I am going to guess that you mean 'skew nailed at the end'. If this is the case and they have held for so long it is a good sign that all is well and the joist hanger solution will be a good fix.

Learn a bit about beams and you will see that the top of the joist is in compression and the bottom is in tension. You can extend the bottom in the centre with a steel OR wooden post and put a tensioning system in place via wire/rod and turnbuckle or strap and strap tensioner to take some of the load. You have seen this sort of system in the roof/ceiling in churches, halls and ballrooms.

As others have said, take your time. It can be done but do it slowly.

Jim

No, they are end-nailed into a girder (I think that's the correct term?) on posts. I don't even want to get into the actual "planning" (or lack thereof) that went into this section of the house.

Hannes,

I'm not a fan of our local building inspectors as they like to bully homeowners around. Or at least the one I've dealt with. I was a General Building Contractor in Burbank California for a few years and saw how the inspectors talked to the homeowner and the way they talked to me. They basically believe that if the job isn't completed by a licensed contractor then the job isn't correct.

"Stepping down off soapbox now"

1. This is a structural component. if you do not feel comfortable doing the work get a contractor.
2. If and when you sell the house, the crawl space is going to be inspected for termites and any other damage. If the repair is not completed to your local building codes, you will be on the hook to have it replaced before the house is sold or the money will be held in escrow. I did tons of Bank and Escrow work in CA.
3. If you feel comfortable doing the work, there are many solutions like a "sister joist", a set of clamp plates, a "U" shaped galvanized steel support. Even the plywood option may help, however I would like to see a picture with dimensions before I suggest anything though.

good luck
Bryan

That's interesting, our local inspector is the complete opposite. He took a look at our floor structure a few months ago and told me it was "probably fine" because it "looked like his house's." Not very reassuring. Then we had a structural engineer come in and ask me if I had the house inspected when we bought it, because the structure was so terrible. More reassuring but still hard to hear.

I watched most of the work our contractors did on the other floors, so that I'm reasonably confident in doing this myself. I've been doing a lot of reading on the subject and know, for example, to level the floor very slowly and not all in one day. It's the fixing the broken joist I'm more concerned about, but I think my plan will at least improve things if I can execute it correctly (big if).

I'm glad you have an inspector that is helpful. It looks like you have gotten several ideas for the repairs. I would also address the hole in the joist. if it is in the top or bottom 1/3 of the joist, you should think about reinforcing that area or replacing the joist. I know that may not be an option however, that hole could cause a crack or stress point if it was placed incorrectly and you start jacking it up.

Good luck!

Bryan

It occurs to me that you might want to remove the pipe that goes through the joist for the duration of the work, replace the joist with a 2x10, and then replace the pipe. That might be less work in the long run than all the scabbing and sistering. And while you're at it, you might replace all the 2x8s among the alternating 2x8s and 2x10s with 2x10s. Of course, all of this depends on your finish flooring situation above. The subfloor will have to be re-nailed or screwed to the new joists, so if you have a valuable finish floor above that you don't want to replace, this approach might be prohibitive in terms of time required. If you replace only the one joist, you could put some screws through the sides of the joist at a 45-degree angle into the subfloor, perhaps with a little sideways angle.

If you're fussy, it would also be a good idea to put joist hangers on all of these end-nailed joists, but only if you see signs that they have dropped a bit from flush with the girder. Are you sure they're not toe-nailed? If they are, take a big honkin' nailset with you when you put the hangers on, so you can drive the toenails flush and get the hangers on tightly. A drift pin is even better than a nailset, when you're dealing with framing nails. If you can't find joist hangers for those old full-2" joists, a metal fabricator can make some up for you. They won't be galvanized, but they'll be better than what you have now and they're out of the weather anyway. And if you're not that fussy, I won't judge you.

When I first got into construction, and old-timer told me about the shortage of nails in the postwar years, and how he had built a house with nothing bigger than 8d nails (and, presumably a whole lot of toe-nailing). "Hasn't fallen down yet," was his comment. There's something to be said for this criterion. But if you're young and accustomed to a world of high-safety-margin engineering, your peace of mind might be be better served by a bunch of joist hangers. You have lots of options here, and a cooperative building inspector. End nail joists are easier to replace than joists that sit on top of a girder. Joist hangers are easy to add. If it were me, I'd just replace the joist with a 2x10.

I worked out of many of the same areas that you did, I am sure. From Monrovia to Brentwood, and everywhere in-between. The Northridge Quake was a real wake up call, and extra Inspectors and Structural Engineers had to be brought in from out of state, as the Cities had laid off a couple of thousand young "newbies" (Last in , first our), after the Big recession. Having to talk to a substitute Inspector from Oklahoma about how to build a new bond beam for a fallen chimney was like talking to Gilligan about AstroPhysics….I emphasize….

Yep,

I was there for the Northridge Quake. I was working special effects at the time in Glendale, I had already closed down my construction company. (I had put all my eggs in one basket that the bottom dropped out of. )(Repo and Forclosure remodels). I remember that morning vividly. I ran 40 feet to dive on top of my 6 year old son to protect him. The house was bouncing so wildly that my feet barely touched the floor. I was lucky, the only damage was a shattered glass shower door, a few broken dinner plates and a TV that fell flat on its face in the living room and knocked a resistor loose and a 1/2" x 40" crack in my yard cinder block wall.

You are lucky it was only a crack in your wall. I had a neighbor who had a 6 foot high cinder block wall , over 150 feet long put up, by some shady guys, offering him a good deal and barely speaking English. He didn't ask me to check them out ….so…after the quake, the whole wall lay upon the ground…on his neighbor's side…No steel, no fill grouting of the block every 4 feet, at least, no vertical steel coming out of a 6" , rounded edge "footing"…you get the idea. But, he got a Good deal!! I have never seen so much damage, in ways that could not be explained. One of our Engineers did the original evaluation of the failure of the Sherman Oaks Galleria parking structure (many acres). He said the 15 Engineers stood around looking at each other and one said: " How in the F*** do we engineer for that?????"

I understand completely.

Definitely jack slowly... old houses have room to move, but too fast and you'll crack a wall (or worse).

I agree that a joist hanger may help (added some of these to our cellar) but you may find that such old beams don't fit into the standard sized hangers.

We did some similar work on our floors after buying an 1850 house. Adding two supports similar to the one in your previous post eliminated some serious creaking and bouncing in two rooms! Still one more room to do, but it's over a crawl space and a large piece of duct work blocks the entrance.

So I was down in the crawlspace again today and decided not to jack anything except individual joists. The span I'm looking at is about 16 ft and there's a beam midway between. That leads me to believe that the weak end-nailed connection at the girder caused/is causing the cracking. I'm going to start by jacking those ends of the individual joists back into position, finding some joist hangers to fit, and seeing where that gets me.

If you are unable to find a joist hangar that fits, go to the next wider size and bend it to fit. If you have a bench vise and a hammer, you should be able to get it close enough. or incorporate a few of these in with a hangar? I believe you can purchase several lengths or maybe look at some perforated metal angle cut to length

Like this 1-1/2" x 60" long perforated angle.

Be careful, take your time and avoid mistakes. Remember, you are jacking up a HOUSE. Even 1 joist at a time could cause a failure on a different joist. I'm confident you know where your utilities enter the house and how to shut them off. (Electric, Water, Gas, Etc?) just in case the joist fails and damages the utilities under the house. Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Most of the time.

Good Luck

Bryan

If the ends of the joists are "shot", meaning splintered and unable to hold a fastener, then I would cut off the end of the joist off by 1 1/2 inch, enough so that you slip a 2x ? block behind it and fasten that onto the girder, with 1/4 inch lags screws with washers. Nails will often split the block, as it dries, over time. Length of the filler block should be the distance between the joists on either side of the damaged one, and the height (depth) of the block should be the same as the girder / joist (IE, 2x 6, 2 x 8 ). Once the filler block is in, you can then use a joist hanger and you will be fastening into good wood. I also like to use screws, rather than nail, for the hangers. Teco nails are notorious for working out later. Remember, that any split in the wood, even if supported with a hanger can give you the potential for a nagging squeak, with walking pressure from above. Had to fix a lot of those, when people thought it was in their hardwood floor, and it was in their sub structure. While under there, you should also consider refastening the entire subfloor joist areas with hangers, to prevent a future occurrence. My 2 Cents...

Update: I ended up jacking the beam only. (Considering leaving the joist ends to a contractor visiting next week--me+structural components=disaster.) I made the mistake of thinking the beam should be level when the crawlspace was not, so I ended up jacking up one end of the beam a bit too much and slightly leveling the floor at one end. Didn't hear any cracks or pops while jacking but I may have heard a pop about 10 mins after I jacked--going to keep an eye on the doors and walls from here on out, and if I attempt to level the rest of the floor I'm going to wait a few weeks before jacking anymore.

In any case, the floor feels much stronger and stiffer, if still unlevel.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Thank you for the update. I appreciate hearing about the resolution and what worked.

Can you get ahold of a simple laser? Rent one, or borrow? It would make things so much easier, while under the house, to shoot relative elevations, from one end to the middle, and then for the overall lengths. The beam is very easy to see in low light. Setting up the laser to shine on the tops of the footings, or sill plates, or any thing that is available, then moving it from side to side, in a circular motion, would give your a really good idea of what is high and low. It would also give you an idea of potential future problems, such as if one spot is REALLY low, say…We always start using this technique, to establish benchmarks, before getting to involved with local elevations, like one or two "low" joists….Maybe have your contractor do it for you, as I am sure he uses lasers in his work...