Recreating the Merging of power inputs?

If you follow the link below you will find a pdf document at the winnebago factory for the chieftain good luck

Bill

http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/2002/2002_L_Series.pdf

Thanks, Bill for the diagram. But I'm having a bit of trouble downloading it--maybe my reader is not up to date, maybe it's something else? I tried downloading Reader version 8, but it won't install until I fix a missing file on my system. Can you say how large the file was? And if there's a work-around that might allow me to access the drawing? Just wondering. Again, your help is greatly appreciated.

Personally I find that just a fuse between the two systems to be too little, dangerous in fact.

Personally, I would recommend either a manual or automatic changeover switch.

The two supplies should NEVER EVER come into contact with each other......most fuses are too slow to fully and completely protect the inverter's electronics.......

I think I agree with you. But it was not an inline fuse between the systems; rather, it was a fuse in the household loop. And it is not, insofar as I know, the inverter which has sustained damage, but the household system to which the RVs remote hookup was connected. Now that the RV is disconnected, testing the household loop by screwing a light bulb into the fuse socket indicates a hard short in the household loop (Romex) to which the RV had been connected. Not only that, another lighting loop in an adjacent area of the house has failed--there is not lights or outlet power in that part of the house. The two loops are in proximity on the load center. Now, the second loop does not blow fuses; however, light bulb testing at its fuse socket indicates, not a hard short, but, what seems to be a leakage--the bulb glows, but only dimly rather than lighting up fully, in the fuse socket.

My area of interest, for one part, concerned how the implementation of change-over switching is implemented in the Chieftain33. It seem reasonable that is should have one, or another way of isolating battery/inverter input from remote AC input.

This is why I was hoping to obtain a wiring/schematic drawing of the RV--to see what exactly caused the inverter to "get involved" if this is what happened. Or someone who knows how to safely run RV loads off of remote AC--including what can be run and what cannot--thing like that.

My hunch is that it might have something to do with which loads in the RV are AC always, and which are DC always. So I'm thinking perhaps an AC load was switched on and that is what "triggered" the inverter (because RV deep cycles were not switched off), thus bringing 110 volts, possibly 220 volts, into the household loop at Nom.. 120V. If this is possible, wouldn't it be like suddenly imposing 220 volts, or 360 volts on a loop which is wired and fused for 120V/20A. Or (making believe) as if the house loop wiring diameter was suddenly reduced to 1/2 or 1/4 of its actual wire gauge???

Now this is the only explanation I've been able to guess at so far. So, now that I've better defined my query, I'm hoping to learn:

1. Is the "conjecture" described above a plausible one to those with electrical expertise and/or RV wiring expertise?
2. Are there any other plausible explanations?

Thanks, and I will try to give further details as they seem applicable. And, oh yes, I realize that some might want to tell me about my great blunder...but I don't think that is necessarily the case...as will be revealed in due course. For now I would hope to stay focused on the technical aspects and do appreciate your understanding and cooperation.

It is very unlikley that the extra load or higher voltage could ever get as high as would be required to melt the insulation on the wires. The only thing which could cause you to have a short on the household system. I would suggest that you contact a registered electrician imediatley and have the house wiring checked before you have fire or electrocute someone

Thanks, Pete. In addition to the RV, the two household circuits in question are now dead (un-fused), so the dangers you warn against should be eliminated. And they will remain disconnected/unfused pending determination of cause of the damage, whatever it turns out to be.

You seem to suggest a pre-existing fault in the house wiring, if I understood your post as you intended. The house wiring in the two now faulty loops is fairly new--the newest in the house--and were certified installed and inspected by building department not more than ten years ago. In addition the only load on the house circuit at the time it was blown out was the RV; also, the RV had been connected without serious incident for more than ten months--the only mishaps being occasional (normally) blown fuses (and restoration after new fuse) when the RV occupants forgot to turn off their TV when starting their microwave oven--so the house's circuit wiring and fuse protection had been working as designed. The fact that an unrelated circuit was effected leads me to believe that the damage might have been done to the load center--where the two circuits are in closest proximity. Actually this is the best that can be hoped for since then repairs might be possible for only $hundreds, rather than (possibly) 10's of $hundreds if the wiring was affected.

(Part of the dilemma that makes it essential to pinpoint the most likely point of damage/failure--before calling an electrician--is the possibility, however remote, that the wiring was compromised. What I mean is, if the electrican, after collecting his house call $fee, tells me the[a] fault is [or could be] in the wiring and will need to be traced [or opened and reinspected for code compliance], it would be my guess he will also stop work until the wiring is exposed (via demolition of walls/ceilings) for inspection. This means, in addition to demo, re-wall and refinish contractors, that the electrician will need to be paid the house call fee twice before any actual electrical work is started!)

Quite understandably, I'll need to keep searching for most probable cause as well before bringing in an electrician.

How good are you electrically yourself? If you can work in an electrically safe manner, we can assist you in at least defining the problem(s) better. No need to work with the mains directly at this point, but some test equipment will be required, maybe borrowed - an insulation tester for example.

For example, it is possible that the problems could be in the sockets and not the wiring for example....

But if you are not good in this area, I feel that you will have to bite into that sour apple (German saying for such occasions!) and order the electrician.

The only change I would make is to tell the electrician that he is ignore the old circuitry (at least wherever possible) and fit new, leave the old wiring untouched as far as possible, doing more checking will just cost extra money.

That removes problem finding from his brief....and a good electrician can get cables through drywalling (assuming that is what you have) with little change to it....

If the start of the old cable run is needed due to problems of replacement for example, then he will have to check out at least the start of the old wiring. Not knowing the layout of your house precludes me from making better suggestions.

AndyGermany,

Please stand by while I prepare a response to your post--so I can fill in more details that address your points... Thanks for patience. Back later.

Steve

That post I promised...

How good are you electrically yourself? If you can work in an electrically safe manner, we can assist you in at least defining the problem(s) better. No need to work with the mains directly at this point, but some test equipment will be required, maybe borrowed - an insulation tester for example.

Possibly (said with great reservation) better skills than barely average, having done things like: adding/changing boxes, switches, outlets, circuit breakers, installed a dedicated power loop and power net for this computer, converting 220V well pump pressure switch supplied contactor coil to 120…little things like that. Tools consist of basic hand tools, inexpensive wire cutter/crimp pliers, outlet tester, and a pretty good full range multimeter—but nothing like insulation tester. clamp meters and such.

"For example, it is possible that the problems could be in the sockets and not the wiring for example....

That seems to be a possibility and it would be a good thing, I think. Following this possibility, it seems to me that I could think of the power failure in my house as a dual failure: a primary, or pfailure/pfault, of/in the loop (formerly) connected to the RV; and an sfailure/sfault of/in the adjacent-room loop that is now dead and showing leakage when bulb tested at the fuse panel. Your mention of sockets—if expanded to include junctions as well—suggests that the starting point (for first determining pfailure) should be where the RV was connected to the house, the outdoor, GFI duplex outlet…to see if the short exists there. Then work "backwards" towards the fuse box checking any junctions along the way??? Or, since the secondary failure happened, maybe I should go directly to the fuse box to check for internal damage??? Externally, there appears to be no damage to the fuse sockets, but I have posted a pic (below in thread) so you can see and judge directly. This is a panel, unlike the bus type circuit breaker panel, with which I am not as yet familiar…so I'll probably need some guidance what to expect if I was to open it up (which will require some planning since it's in an un-sun-lighted area and I will need to remove mains power near the meter—and do so without getting "stuck" (looking for repair parts etc) while the whole house (and this computer) remains unlighted and the food spoils in the freezer and deep freeze. Another thing, is that I need to make a legally-acceptable photographic record (that means film camera and stocking film) of each step along the way in case I'm left with no option but action against the RV (if the repair expense grows to much)—so implementation of all recommended actions must be carefully planned and methodical. But, back on the topic of wiring vs. sockets, that leads to your next suggestion, about (when and how to invite) the electrician.

"But if you are not good in this area, I feel that you will have to bite into that sour apple (German saying for such occasions!) and order the electrician.

Ordering the electrician—which I expect I might have to break down and do at some point—if only for the purpose of ensuring safety—is not without complications of its own, and that apart from affordability. In a broad sense, I think it reasonable to hope that the electrician will be able to provide expert opinion as to cause of primary and secondary failures (possibly in the RV as well as in the house); however, my gut feeling is that it will be quite difficult to find the rare journeyman who will be a willing expert witness—even for additional witness fee. Finding such…could entail a time consuming search, possibly to no avail (?). So (as you implied) I have to be careful about how to best utilize (and what to expect from) an electrician's services—plus, it involves not only liability for damage to my house, but also the potentiality that I might have to defend against accusations regarding as-yet-undetected (or even future) damage to the RV. But enough of that and back to the technical aspects…

"The only change I would make is to tell the electrician that he is ignore the old circuitry (at least wherever possible) and fit new, leave the old wiring untouched as far as possible, doing more checking will just cost extra money.

I can appreciate this suggestion from a practical economic (as well as safety) standpoint, but I'm not certain whether my house (I will endeavor to provide some sketches as soon as I am able) might not lend itself to all things in the good electrician's bag of tricks, in addition to those you mention below…

"That removes problem finding from his brief [Agreed!]....and a good electrician can get cables through drywalling (assuming that is what you have) with little change to it....

Maybe, but consider— In my house, the AC "trunks" and laterals in the two affected parts of the house—these were additions to the original, pitched-roof structure—do not run through open & accessible attic space. Instead, they are routed (in Romex, not hard conduit) in the joist bays between ceiling and roof—and from there down-leads through stud bays to service boxes, just like "normal" drywall cavity… And, to make matters even trickier, the joist bays are insulated with glass bats. Seems to me that the only practical way to rewire might have to entail finding/making the access and means to pull the existing Romex in order to emplace new Romex (or hard conduit) in its place—by using the existing wiring as a kind of fish tape. But that's only a wild guess on my part and I would have to defer to your (all's) better knowledge of how rewiring in this circumstance would or could be done by an expert.

(Answering in advance one suggestion that might come up—because it has already in the non-virtual world—access to joist bays from above is a non-starter. The roof sheathing is overlaid with permanently attached, un-removable/un-replaceable IB blanket [permanent PVC single ply].)

"If the start of the old cable run is needed due to problems of replacement for example, then he will have to check out at least the start of the old wiring. Not knowing the layout of your house precludes me from making better suggestions."

As said above, Andy, I will see about facilitating your understanding of the wiring setup.

Sorry I could not be any terser and still make the needed points. Hoping all readers will understand…

Steve

Please don't post to this thread til I get the photo posted in a few minutes. Thanks.

Here's the pic of fuse box and affected fuse sockets. The lower fuse row, far right is where the primary fault occurred--where a test bulb indicates short.

The upper fuse row, far right, is the the circuit with secondary failure where test bulb glows dimly. Sorry the pic story board does not display at original size and clarity--maybe you can zoom/magnify it? I should have tried right alignment instead of no alignment and maybe that would have showed the picture less condensed. You can see the arrows drawn between the fuse rows and enlarged views of the affected circuit fuse sockets.

What you need to do (provided you feel capable and can work safely AND SLOWLY is to isolate the problem circuits entirely from the mains, in fact I would suggest pulling the wiring out of the fuse box for the moment (or cutting it and eventually adding a small junction box when finished if pulling the wiring out and later in is not up your street). This allows all other circuits that are OK to be made live again and you are nowhere near mains voltage.

First using a simple voltmeter on ohms (before anyone shouts, this is a primary test, not the final test!!), unplug all users from all sockets and if any equipment is hardwired, de-wire that too.. and see if you can measure the resistance between live and ground and neutral & ground. If you measure anything less than 1 megohm, either that is the problem or something is still plugged into that circuit.... Also measure between live and neutral, it should also be more than a megohm.... using a long wire and the ohmmeter, check that ground, neutral and live do not have any breaks from end to end. Easier with a companion!!!

Assuming that you see a short (less than one megohm), then see if you can split the circuit down by cutting it somewhere in the middle in a junction box and measure again. Check back at the fusebox to see if the fault has disappeared there or not. This will tell you on which side of the break the fault is. Split it again and again till you find the problem....

Do make sure that you have a simple voltage sensing device like a neon screwdriver, to check that you are not attacking a live circuit. Test the screwdriver before using that it does indicate correctly, some are pretty dim in sunlight!!!!!! Shield it with your hand........

As I said before, if you are not 200% happy and confident in your abilities, bite the bullet and get the electrician.......

Assuming that you find the faulty area, replace the parts concerned, connect the whole circuit again and check again.

I would personally at this point replace the fuse and see what happens, but it would probably be better if you borrowed a high voltage insulation tested (or bought a cheap working one off ebay!) and checked the circuits again for high voltage leakage.... before replacing the wiring in the fusebox and replacing the fuse.

If anything I have written is not 100% clear, ASK ME!!!! Do not try anything that you do not understand!!! Also there are plenty of other good brains on CR4 willing to help you through this problem, I am only one of many.

the size of the pdf is 5 megs but if just edit the link so it take you to the home page that way you'll be able to look for your model an year. like below

http://www.winnebagoind.com/html/resources/manuals.html

Bill

Bill,

Actually I already accessed and tried from the home page and tab or link indicated in the latest URL you provided. Again, no luck getting the download to open on screen--same as before. When I tried to install the Adobe Reader update to version 8 (after several hours download on my dialup--because highspeed is not available), the install was aborted with an error message about a missing file, "mypictures\backup\backup" (something like that). This is a problem I intend to correct by reinstallation, after C:\ backup, of XPpro and Office2003 (microsoft has been working with me on this)...so my problem now is that I'm in a conflict of priorities dilemma--and think it best to resolve the house wiring problem before tinkering with my computer system. Anyway, I was wondering about the possibility that the PDF file download could be obtained through a third party--say, as an email attachment; or FTP download from a site to which the diagram was uploaded. I'm not sure if .pdf files can be handled in this manner, though. If it was possible, I would be willing to pay for the time and effort--say, via a paypal transfer. Tell me what you think. Is this a sensible idea?

If I can download the file and you give me your email address, i will do it for nothing....

I'll try and download the file, will update shortly.

It would appear that I need to know the year of the Winnabago Chieftain 33 as well, correct if I am wrong....

I took 1999 as a year, found the Chieftain 33 and downloaded the 110 volt wiring diagram no problem.

If you could define which year and which diagrams, I'll get them all in an email to you (which will take all night to download for you I expect, but not for me, I have ADSL!!)

I have been able to download all the 1999 33 Chieftain drawings they are over 5 Megs in size total here is an e-mail address you can contact me at

c2wc@yahoo.com

I will try and get you the 110 volt and 12 volt dc first these are not to large and are what you seem to need so contact me me and we get you rolling again.

have a Great day

It was just a guess on my part that the Chieftain was a 1999 model for testing of the downloading from that website......until the owner of the Blog either confirms or denies that, we do not know which year he has!!

If 1999 turns out to be the correct year, I am sure that you can send him all he needs as you have already received it all....

not a problem it looks like they have most models and year for 1980 to 2007 so I'm willing to burn him a CD a mail it if that will help.

hope you day is fill with hope and smiles

Bill

Ditto Bill and Andy both, and your kindness overwhelms. It is a Chieftan 33, year model 1987. I did not say before because when I went to Winnebago site their available drawings seem to cut off at a more recent model year, perhaps 1990 it was...? But I figured any, or the oldest available would suffice for the basic "household" systems which probably do not change much, if at all, from year to year. (Coincidentally, I was also able to get a non-pdf file giving wiring color codes chart referring to all drawings--at least for more recent models--that might come in handy reading the actual diagram.) So the best choice would the exact 1987 diagram, or the oldest available after that year. I will now add you (Bill) to my address book and email you as agreed in above posts.

Wow, what a great site with a great bunch of fellows.

Steve

The CD is a great idea....

To Wm and Andy

Bill, did you get the email message I sent by the link? A CD certainly has its advantages with dial-ups, especially with larger files. But 5megs could probably be received via network in an hour or less, depending on the connection speed I get from ISP. Mailing location might be another consideration, since mine is Calif, USA. If it's CD, I would hopefully want to return a blank for you to replenish your stock if you would be agreeable. In either event, send me a quick e-message so I'll know you got mine, and let me know if you want me to send a street address.

Andy, I've hard copied your latest and studying it over....also working on a better description of my house/wiring layout which you suggested would be helpful...

In the meantime, here's some more info, about the RV, that came to light yesterday. I was on RV roof helping figure out how to deploy awnings and I discovered that the RV is fitted with a solar (pv) array. Not sure how that affects the problem but perhaps the wiring diagram will make that clearer. As soon as I'm able, I'm going to disconnect from Main and check the outlet/box the RV was plugged into to see if any damage there. Next would come the fuse panel but, as you can see (maybe) from the pic above, I need to figure out just how to get inside. It looks to me like, and unlike a breaker bus box, you can't just unfasten and remove a cover plate...because the fuse socket plate is also screwed to the panel which is screwed to the wall. So I'll need to do some screw loosening and peeking to see just how the thing comes apart. I also have to figure out how to do that and also get my car "smog" tested in time.... Oh, by the weigh, we got all the awnings deployed just fine; only problem...for my help I was rewarded with a wasp sting on my hand. So it seems I'm "once hospitable, twice stung" on behalf of our RV guests? Talk about Murphy's law...

Back later.

No I looked for an e-mail all last week and over the weekend from you and it never came through. as for returning a blank CD that is not required or wanted. I have them to spare I would be send it from Upstate NY so it take any where from 3 to 5 day to get to CA. just need your info.

Bill, I'll go back to the link and try again...now, as it appears you might be presently "online."

maybe the one last week went to your spam folder for some reason? I CC's this latest one to myself to see if it's filtered....because my eaddress contains the name of a certain automobile brand...??

I am on holiday between 24th and the 31st, sorry. The few days before and after will be fairly busy too.......but I will do my best as soon as I am back.....

Andy, thank you for the update; and, please, take the time you need for more pressing matters--I'll consider it a reprieve since I'm in a too-much-to-do situation myself; and we've gotten accustomed to fla...torch and "natural" illumination for showering and other business...so it's a tolerable inconvenience until the weather dictates heating, which is months' away. For when you get back...

I've finished the sketch of the electrical layout (as best I can figure it, and except the RV part which I hope to be able to add later), which I will post today and it'll be waiting upon your return. Also, I have studied your procedure list and believe it is do-able; there are a few questions/feedback I want to make sure about. So, using the same approach as before, I will echo back your suggestions with my questions at the appropriate points.

Until then, happy holiday!

Steve

Thanks. I am not gone completely till the 24th though, but we can do it at your speed, no probs...

Here's the wiring as best I can figure it. Sorry for the poor display; this site still has some work to do processing pictures. For some reason the frame will not expand into right column, even though test does. I'll try inverted image...see if that displays better.

After looking at your diagram, the only place where the two problem circuits are near each other, is at the fusebox.

Therefore I will stick my neck out with a prognosis (that could be miles off if I have understood anything incorrectly!! Please laugh with me if true!)...

I believe that the earth on one fuse and the short on the other happened at the same time that the RV was plugged in. If that is true, I do believe that the fault (one fault, two affected circuits) lies where the wiring of both fuses is close to each other, that is probably within a yard of the fusebox, maybe even inside the fusebox, or where it leaves the fusebox....!!

Pick a place near to the fusebox, where you can get to the two circuits (and where you can place a small junction box for a repair later!) and cut the wiring.

Test from that point in both directions to see in which direction, the faults now lie, towards the fusebox or not, for both circuits.

Post that info on CR4 please. But if in the fusebox direction, I feel that you could rip out all the old wiring inside the F.Box, test again at the fuse and if clear, lay new wiring and add a small junction box (or two) to connect to the old, but good wiring....

Andy, acknowledged...your latest post...and will prepare response with further details. In the mean time, I see you were able to decipher the drawings. How clear was it displayed for you. Were you able to see all text, or only the wiring traces? Did you copy and use zoom-in or some other tactic? I'm curious to know the diagram display went for you, since I have an idea what might be done to improve "line drawing" photo processing that I would eventually want to bring to CR4's attention.

As to your updated ideas about the fault locale, I think we are of similar mind. I have a similar, but somewhat more detailed hypothesis about the failure event itself that I would like to run by you when I get back, after writing it up, etc.

Rest assured I would always laugh only with you...because how would I ever know you weren't laughing at me even as I spoke? Hmm!

Back later,

Steve

The diagrams were just about decipherable, not the writing, but I got a fairly clear impression, good enough I feel.

I am very happy that "OUR" conclusions would appear to be going in the same direction, we WILL fix this together I am sure. It will probably turn out to be far simpler than we thought at the beginning, that is often the case I have found over the years....

I hope that we can all laugh together!!

Have a good one & keep us posted when you have time.