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3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/10/2015 1:45 AM

Hello,

I have a 1/4th hp 2 pole 115 volt induction motor.

run winding is between 3.3 and 3.6 ohms.

A 10uF capacitor is in series with a 13.3 ohm coil. (it wouldn't supprise me if its exactly twice the turns and half the cross section area for four times the resistance)

No load voltage is 254 volts across the capacitor, and 211 volts across the coil, .98 amps through the capacitor at no load. under as much load as my fingers can burn up.. the amps drop to .88 through the capacitor and the volts drop to 190 across the coil.

What i'm wondering is, can i drive this from a standard 3 phase vfd. using a small 100 watt auto transformer to double the volts for the second winding..

Instead of a psuedo 90 degree phase relationship I'd have 120 fixed, so its a bit of a de-rating.. however the volts won't drop under load so I expect to get more torque out of it. overheating isn't an issue right now.

Or should I just build a Scott T transformer.. which would be very easy to do.

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#1

Re: 3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/10/2015 8:23 AM

Your post is very confusing.

Is the 1/4HP motor a 115VAC or 230VAC rated unit?

Is it 3 phase or single phase?

If it is a 115VAC rated motor;

Applying more than 20% higher voltage (138VAC) will cause severe motor damage and most likely instant failure of the motor windings and/or the capacitor.

Applying 10% higher voltage (127VAC) usually will not damage the motor windings.

Applying voltage at less than 85% of rating will cause excessive current, motor winding heating, possible locked rotor, and subsequent failure of the windings.

The same percentages of "over" and "under" voltage apply to a 230VAC rated motor.

You must use a 3 phase VFD on a 3 phase motor and a single phase VFD on a single phase motor.

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#2

Re: 3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/10/2015 8:54 AM

I sounds like you are trying to over engineer this thing.

In a response to your question. I say "NO"

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#3

Re: 3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/10/2015 9:53 AM

It might work, for a very short time. Neither element, the VFD nor the motor, are designed to tolerate each other. The VFD transistors will see the capacitor charging current on the single phase motor as a short circuit, possibly damaging them from dI/dt, and at the same time the rich harmonic content of the pseudo AC output of the VFD withhold resonate with the motor capacitor and cause havoc, including heating and failure of the capacitor while also possibly damaging the transistors from dV/dt. It's generally a race to see who fails first.

There are VFDs made specifically for single phase motors, but if you read the instructions carefully, you cannot use them on capacitor start versions either. They can only be used on Shaded Pole or PSC motors, the PSC is OK because the caps are always in series with the inductors (windings). But even if yours is a PSC motor (might be from your description), the fact that one winding is connected to Neutral and thus ground is going to be no bueno for a 3phase VFD, which along with the lack of output on one phase will likely cause the VFD to trip on Residual Current Ground Fault, because it is designed to look for a balanced 3 phase motor circuit behind it.

So IF your motor is indeed a PSC motor, then you must buy a VFD that is DESIGNED to run a single phase PSC motor. Do a search for a UK based VFD company called Invertek, they make them. The same drive is sold by 2 or 3 other companies in the US, but they are brand-labeling the same Invertek drive.

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#4

Re: 3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/10/2015 12:49 PM

this is a single phase, capacitor run motor.

as such, it is a two phase motor. phase shift is provided by a capacitor.

the question is, can i run this from two phases of a 3 phase vfd (removing the capacitor of course!), and how much of a performance hit will the 120 degree phase shift be, when it is supposed to be a 90 degree phase shift.

I can wind a scott T transformer, but that requires two transformers instead of one.. i will need a transformer to provide 250 volts for one coil and 120 for the other.

If I wind a scott T transformer it will force proper 90 degree phase shift and a more stable voltage for the second winding... which is an improvement.

the two windings are different voltages, which is why i'll need a transformer to excite the second winding to a higher voltage than the first.

the vfd would be programed for 60 hz 115 volts as standard.. a small transformer would double the voltage for the second winding. but the phase shift would be 120 degrees instead of 90 which means there will still be a rotating field, but it won't provide as much torque as it should.

I still think this will increase efficiency, but not by nearly as much as providing a proper two phase (90 degree phase shift) would.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: 3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/10/2015 1:57 PM

Again, why do you want to do this? You will likely end up destroying an expensive VFD or burning up the motor, they are NOT designed for this. I cannot recommend this.

The motor's only 1/4 HP, just buy one with the right voltage winding or buy a single phase step down transformer. It will probably be cheaper and easier (and will work) than buying a VFD.

What exactly is the application?

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#6

Re: 3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/11/2015 12:18 AM

There are lots of ways to skin a cat, but some folks seem determined to do it the hard way.

If you look for it, there are off-the-shelf solutions to this problem that don't involve so much unnecessary complication and expense.

How about one of these : http://www.kbelectronics.com/Fan_Speed_Controls_Triac/Wall_Mounted_Fan_Controls.html? Works OK on PSC motors and is 115VAC.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: 3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/11/2015 3:58 AM

i pray you're making a joke...

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#8

Re: 3 Phase VFD Feeding a 2 Phase Capacitor Run Motor

02/11/2015 8:20 AM

You apparently:

1. Have a well engineered idea laid out (which may or may not work)

2. Have a definite need to keep the motor in question

So, why not try this and let us know what the outcome is. It sounds fascinating.

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