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Endangered Species Traded Online

Posted April 07, 2010 12:01 AM by SavvyExacta

There are many reasons to explain why some of the world's species have become endangered. Habitats have been lost to housing developments, food sources have become scarce due to overfishing, and some animals are simply hunted to extinction. Now, conservationists are saying that technology creates another threat – the Internet.

For years, some people have considered it "cool" or "elite" to own animals like tigers and other rare species. Artifacts made from animals, like ivory taken from the tusks of elephants, are also sought after. Jewelry is created from rare coral. Now these items, like just about anything else, are commonly traded online.

The Internet offers many advantages to illegal sellers, namely anonymity and a worldwide market. The U.S. is the largest market with Europe not far behind.

The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) has members from 175 nations who met at the end of March in Doha, Qatar to propose increased protection for endangered animals. At the convention, delegates defeated several proposals including one to regulate the trade of red and pink coral. The idea was dismissed due to concerns regarding possible declines in local fishing trade in some areas. The next vote will be on ivory.

Species Affected

The International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW) conducted a three-month survey in 2008 and found more than 7,000 species worth $3.8 million sold online. This includes anything from coral to lions to salamanders to birds and to fish. In addition to live animals, products are created from the animals and sold; for example, wine created from tiger bones.

Some websites, such as eBay, have banned the sale of ivory through their venues. How do you think this can be controlled?

Resources:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8579310.stm

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10160551

http://current.com/groups/animal-videos-and-news/89433698_want-a-chimp-endangered-animals-for-sale-online.htm

http://www.twitterthoughts.com/social-media-news-analyses/2010/3/31/can-social-media-help-save-endangered-species.html

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#1

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/07/2010 11:11 PM

Petition to Protect Homo Magnanimous, specie in danger of extinction. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=109639505731340

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#2

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/07/2010 11:11 PM

As awful as this is, there is , in my opinion, is no difference between selling animal parts, or live animals, than there is selling illegal drugs. Doctors, that sell and administer illicit drugs, such as the one that ministered Michael Jackson, will always be found through the common denominator--MONEY. In order to stop supply, one needs to look at DEMAND--It is a basic economic situation. To stop drugs, we need EDUCATION in the real world , along with ethics. With the animal problems, there are the same solutions. You cannot teach Ethics--IT is to be experienced--That is why Religion is important, as it is a guide line to Ethics.--There are other guidelines, not religious, but that still need to be observed. In my viewpoint, we have a series of interconnected life species, on this planet, and our survival is also dependent on these species. They provide markers for impending disease, and will often show symptoms of our Planet's problems, way ahead of our observations. To just legislate, and make laws, have done some good, but Justice officials, in many backwaters, are ripe for bribery. To emulate what has been done in Kenya, in which the former poachers were given jobs to track herds, find and arrest poachers, and monitor wildlife herds, I feel is the best approach. More money is funded into the local economies by legal hunting of the older animals, which will fall , by disease or old age, in a year or two, than in all of the illegal poaching. My 2 cents..

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 6:16 AM

C-Mac

Believe it or not, I was so taken by the title that I just hammered away on my keyboard. Then, after typing the bellow, I read what you so eloquently put. This is just another version of your understanding/recognition of the situation. I left it as is. We are one.

Give the people involved a chance to have a different source of income. Dealing with weapons maybe? . This should be treated like a disease and educating or better reeducating is part of solving the problem as well. This is only one small part of a larger disease and may I call it, with all due respect, THE HUMAN RACE.

Any man worth his weight in words would rather choose some other way of income. The middleman, the guys that possibly have never seen the real thing but make the big bucks and supply the perverted market. Did I mention to reeducate them as well? Would not like my chances anyway, this is a bloody cruel world. The last thing I killed was a mozzy, just want to make sure you know were I am coming from.

Treat the demand side first and give the humans involved a fair chance to adjust to/in our world of despair and over indulgence. For some it must be the highest of highs to have an erection (just an example of the weird antics of "drug dealers/users") which were bought and have to live up to its price. What a pitiful existence. Any child would understand that but us spoiled brats have lost something, it seems, but so much to gain by letting other creatures take part, for at least one life time/span, in peace on this planet............OK, OK that's it.

May the fittest survive, here we go again, Ky

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#27
In reply to #2

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/13/2010 10:43 PM

I am an anti-theist(against all religions) & I am none of the bad things that seem to cause man much of the evil in this world. I see religions as a cause of genocide, societies divided, questionable purpose & social relevancy, little intangible emotional solace except for those poor souls that were indoctrinated at an early age & know of nothing else but religion. I believe that it is inherent in us all to provide for ourselves at any cost, when that overall cost is unknown. Education in philosophy is where the true direction can be found as to how to value oneself & others.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/14/2010 12:33 AM

I appreciate your viewpoint. I am not sure of what philosophy you adhere to. Is it an accepted one, or a personal view? I have no animosity to those that hold non-Spiritual viewpoints. Notice that I say Spiritual--, Not religious. Some worship the concept of the Spiritual, and others practice it. Realize that the base of the definition of spirit, is , Latin, Spiritus, To Breathe. Do you "Religiously Bathe"?(Being exact, or careful in one's discipline?) Please understand that Ethics are the most personal individual possessions we have. Mess with someone's Ethics, (I.E. Imply that they are unethical, when they are not), and you will find yourself in a real firefight. That is probably the situation that causes the most arguments in daily life. As far as animals, which this post attributes it's start to, I feel that all life is Spiritual, and therefore will approach any discussion from this viewpoint. I have an Ethical responsibility to support all Life, and Life forms. Not a matter about Religions, only that I see many Religions having the same viewpoints. Raising children, those within those Religions, to be respectful and mindful of the other life species around us is one way we can inform the young and continue good animal husbandry. I am sorry that who ever you have observed in a Religious setting did not uphold that discipline of teaching--Thanks again for your viewpoint..

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/15/2010 9:25 PM

I farmed/ranched/shepherded fo 23 years till global climate change changed it all & I sold the inherited farm that had been in the family for 150+years. I brought many calves & lambs into the world,once had over 150 breeding ewes,translating into 300 plus lambs at lambing time,hope that says enough. I value life probably more than the average modern human & think that trading in animal contraband is something that will take a uniting of world powers to end it. As long as people are willing at any cost to engage in this trade, there will ultimately be a terribly bleak outlook for the wildlife anywhere. I dislike any weapon in the hands of the people who cannot control where they point & discharge it. I further believe that is inherent in humans to be good or bad even if they believe in a god or not.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/15/2010 11:23 PM

I mostly agree with your viewpoint. What is needed to be agreed upon, is the definition of such behaviour. Is animal husbandry strictly a "survival " viewpoint" , or are you in concert with a viewpoint of a Spiritual nature of life, say, as opposed to rocks. What would you say, if , having to choose, between a rock and an animal, as you have raised? Is there a difference between the response given back to you from a good dog, or a lamb/sheep, as opposed to a rock? If so, how would you describe it? Not a trick question or anything o the sort. I am trying to understand your viewpoint, and since you have been so eloquent in other posts, want to follow up. Thanks.

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#32
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/16/2010 11:21 AM

I am not clear on what you are implying by you having an ethical responsibilty to support all life. In terms of application what does this mean? How would you feel about people who kill life because of some discomfort it may cause them in their own lives or some pleasure that may be gained (directly or indirectly) from said death, or even those who kill life incidentally without notice or care?

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#4

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 10:13 AM

As one directly involved in international trade and the application of the CITES I would suggest that we already have the laws in place it is enforcement that is the problem. Less than 1% of goods entering into the North American markets (Canada, Mexico and U.S.A.) are actually inspected, the other 99% cross the borders based solely on documentation. Guess what, those involved in illegal trade practices lie on the documents. Beef up customs inspections both at the point of shipment and the point of destination. Then make the penalties for contravention mean something.

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#5
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 11:59 AM

The problem involved in making the penalties stricter is, how do you make them stricter while the common practice to help reduce the number of people in prisons has become to reduce penalties for what the vast majority of the public perceive as obviously worse crimes such as murders. There is a large sector of the public already complaining about the number of people in our prison system for drug related criminal offenses, smuggling of animals is not perceived by anyone to be even close to as bad as smugling drugs like cocaine. Also, it benefits the endangered species to be in collections and gain more public awareness, people become friendlier to animals they associate or have associated with. Consider horses, since equine studies was brought up, they are an onvasive species brought into the new world, but all over the west people clamor to protect wild mustangs and want very strict penalties imposed on those they perceive as mistreating pet horses. Familiarity breeds a sense and need to protect those animals. Many people fear snakes and would not mind if they were all extinct, but this is because they are not familiar with them and have a lot of mis perceptions. This is the same with some fish, mammals, etc.. Plus on the longer term horizon, species that are exposed to and become familair with living in environments where they are associated with humanity have a much higher probability of a continued existence, than those that come under a sudden rapid change in environment through such exposure, as we expand outwards, dogs and rats being an ideal example.

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#6
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 12:15 PM

Prison populations? A whole new and exciting topic. I am of the opinion that the way to battle the "drug problem" is the same way you battled the prohibition problem, legalize them all thereby removing the dark allure that attacts a certain type of people, removing the crimanal element which is what really makes the drug trade dangerous and opening up the addiction problem to medical help. I think it has been shown that every dollar spent on prevention is worth about 9 dollars spent in interdiction. And lets face it, most "illegal" drugs are no more harmful than alcohol and tobacco, both of which are huge money makers for the governments. Subject the now illegal drugs to the same type of controls and taxes, spend the revenue on education and prevention and empty your prisons to make room for real criminals. Of course driving, flying or being intoxicated at work would still be subject to the same penalties it is right now.

While I'm on my soap box how about legalizing prostitution and any of the other victimless crimes that are more moral judgments than legal ones?

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#7
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 12:26 PM

Just look at (psuedo) legal activities like providing loans through financial institutions, there will always be some victim of some sort. Smuggling of endangered animals will have fewer human victims than prostitution or cocaine smuggling. There are always victims, it is a misperception to claim any crime (or actually any activity we undertake) is victimless. Just the concept of sales and marketing of products is a process we utilize to try and gain some financial advantage from a product or service by convincing people the product or service has a greater value to them than it actually does, and victimize them for greater profits (and sales and marketing comprise something like 50% of all business activities when you consider the psuedo sales and marketing roles in disguise held by lobbyists, psuedo higher level engineers and scientists, managers, politicians, etc.)

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#8
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 12:53 PM

The victims in the trade in endangered species are mainly the animals but also all the people who will be effected by the loss of a species. Who is the victim in the simple cash transaction between two consenting adults, one supplies a product/service to the other? It affects no other person on the planet, the buyer gets what they want, the seller generates an income to support themselves, their family and through taxes the whole country. It has been estimated that the U.S. economy would gain over 80 billion dollars just by legalizing drugs.

"A 2008 study by Harvard economist Jeffrey A. Miron has estimated that legalizing drugs would inject $76.8 billion a year into the U.S. economy — $44.1 billion from law enforcement savings, and at least $32.7 billion in tax revenue ($6.7 billion from marijuana, $22.5 billion from cocaine and heroin, remainder from other drugs).[45][46] Recent surveys help to confirm the consensus among economists to reform drug policy in the direction of decriminalization and legalization.[47]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs

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#9
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 2:50 PM

Well if you are talking aboput prostitution there is the issue of conveying diseases, which was one of the primary concerns before antibiotics, and with antibiotic resistance and new viruses, should still be a concern. Prostitution has psychological implications to the women involved that can lead to direct adverse impacts on those people who are involved or depend on them, like children. Additionally, it is a high risk behavior that endagers the women involved, and potentially their families. It has strong ties to violence against those women involved, as a means of controlling them as a revenue source for others. It leads to higher incidence of pregnancy. So all of these issues would have to be moderated by the government to make it a safe working environment. As it stands now, however, over most of the world prostitution represents a form of sex slavery or very high risk endeavor for the women involved and is not a simple service, and has for centuries.

Drugs and their manufacture finance terrorism in many places, and sometimes the drug providers become terrorists as a means of control and protection of the production and supply. Also, if you have ever met anyone addicted to Meth you begin to understand the adverse uncontrollable influence the drug has on their lives and how it adversely impacts their mental/psychological processes. Since these people exist within our societies and have families, anything that impacts them also impacts these other people surrounding them in degrees based on proximate relationship. Violation of other laws prohibiting things like theft and murder come to be less comprehensible to meth and many opiate addicts, and they end up becoming relatively non-productive, non-functional adverse impacts on other people presenting a higher danger to society then when they are not addicted.

For the most part however, besides a few biologists who espouse a need for infinite funding to study and preserve whichever species they have tied themselves to, in violation of evolutionary theory (thus funding their own lifestyles without having to seek employment in a more valuable field as measured in benefits to humanity), most of humanity gains by having direct experience and knowledge of the other species, rather than hearing about it from highly biased ecologists who create more fiction than science to sell their views (and thereby receive grants or funding). The mammoth disappeared recently, and it has had no notable impact on the progress of humanity. Besides, we can not correlate the extinction of any single species solely on humanity since we are one of the species on the planet and represent evolutionary forces just like any other, driving adaptation or extinction amongst other species we encounter to advance the species we encounter or in accordance with evolution drive those unsuited to survive in an ever changing world to extinction. Preservation is something perceived solely, like that commercial by the mountain climbing business guy who talks of making aluminum wedges instead of the old steel to preserve rocks, in the observers personal benefit, it is a personal need to keep things the way they were (or actually the way they were perceived later to have been, biased memories and recollections of the past). conservation is reasonable and reckless destruction without some understanding of consequences is unreasonable, but preservation is even more unreasonable because it comes at the cost of the advancement of humanity. Humanity can not adavnce and thus survive if we fight against evolution to control everything else and maintain the status quo.

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#10
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 3:29 PM

Your first paragraph is just too paternalistic for this day and age. Women are big girls now and quite capable of taking care of their own health and business without big brother looking out for them. Note that I was referring to willing participants not slaves in my earlier posts. My contacts with the industry have been mostly with people paying their way through university or with people who for one reason or another did not have the advantage of higher education to qualify for such high paying jobs. They either ran their business alone or with a group of friends. All the problems you perceive exist only because the industry is illegal. Several countries and at least one state have legalized the trade without all the doom and gloom scenerios coming to be. In fact I think you will find countries where prostitution is legal have lower rape rates. (Speaking of damage to women)

The same is true for your arguments about drug selling and production. You don't see pharmacists gunning each other down to control the Viagra trade in their district. If you don't like the foreign drug suppliers make it domestically, don't we need more jobs here? Again the Chilian apricot farmers are not killing each other to assure they get to supply us with fresh apricots.

Then on the original topic, if you don't think we should cutback or cut out the trade in endangered species you are entitled to that opinion. So then there is no need for CITES, border inspections or any other control mechanism. I find it funny though why you espouse non-interference in this matter but complete control in the first two areas.

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#11
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 5:07 PM

You cannot legislate Folkways. At least one cannot do it but so much. Real odd that drug laws were brought up in the context of the discussion about the trade in the carcasses and parts of rare animals. I typically can make some astounding leaps intellectually to connect things, but even I am struggling to somehow equate drugs and the trade in either live or dead rare animals with the drug trade. Could be that what they have in common is stuff that is somehow the same all over. That being Folkways, and Laws against those folkways, that cannot overcome the desires and habits nearly genetic to human beings.

When I was young and unsocialized I shot lizards with my bb gun. I suppose I ought to have brought them home to Mom, and asked her to cook 'em up. Really I think I just wanted to kill something. Once I shot a crow, and it seemed to be hurt, I stopped wanting to hurt. I still like to do target shooting, and have a gun around. I miss my shotgun that I sold when I was early broke. It gave me a sense of security since if you have a shotgun you are not doomed to starvation waiting while the potatoes grow.

Smuggling is just another job. People do it to make money.[p]
People are hunters and gatherers. They get hungry, and even I might kill if I was hungry, and even I might smuggle if I was really backed into a corner, and preferred to work illegially, instead of stealing.

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#12
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 7:28 PM

Yes Nevada as an example has legalized prostitution and has a ton of laws built around enforcement of health standards and business practices to conduct a legal prostituion business, versus illegal prostitution which is still by far the dominant form in Nevada even. Making an argument for any criminal activity on the basis of your perception of the activity as you have partaken in a limited number of these activities is highly biased and likely not to be very representative of any activity that has any frequency of occurrence. Your example of prostitution in comparison to education should tell you something even in your own mind about the conditions, considering that prostitues earn at a higher rate than most people with a bachelors degree at the age of say 25. So even you must realize there is something there, as the money and earning potential is much hirer, to create the desire to be in some other field of work even when they will earn far less money and work more hours.

As far as drugs go and apricots, I think anyone over a 80 IQ who observes the behaviors of the users of those items and the behavior of those using heroine or meth could identify the obvious difference that drives demands. meth and heroine get a response more in line with food in general then just one type of specialty fruit. So conside to what lengths people who can not afford food would go for an apricot. In addition, if the market demand for apricots is there, like it is for food in general people do go to great lengths and levels of violence to control the production and distribution of food, consider places like the Sudan or Central Africa. Heroine Addiction and Meth Addiction create that drive like starvation in people and the altered consciousness doesn't help their decisionmaking. You create a market where people all along the process try to gain control, much like they do in Africa even with donated food stuffs. Thus you need controls and laws in place, and then more law enforcement to implement the huge number of laws to control trade practices, business activities and public health impacts. In addition drug addiction impacts productivity effecting the entire society and is a major contributor in increasing health risks. Also, if you consider it in the perspective of major food stuffs as a comparitor you can, if rational, see the impact it would cause to a country and those farmer in chile if a major market like the US stopped importation, and how it could impact the market also if the supply was cut short. Apricots are on negligible impact, and represent very little revenue, cocaine for instance represents a huge source of revenue in Bolivia and Columbia, way out competing any other revenue sources in the places they are grown (to the point the US has to prop up the friendly governments from over throw by rebels/terrorists supported by these drug funds). Making strongly addictive drugs legal would not drive the market value down as the demand would increase with the reduced risk in usage. Note that this would not include Marijauna as it does not present these same issues you have with opiates and methamphetamines. Though it should at least fall under the protective regulations incurred on tobacco smoking, as it presents many of the same health risks from tar exposure and such.

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 9:25 PM

Some GA's to you Sir, though I do not agree with everything you say the general direction is also my experience.

I have lived and worked in Africa, Europe, Asia, middle and far East and visited North America.

I have worked in countries where prostitution (or even adultery) and drug sales or use carried a mandatory death penalty to a country such as Holland where drugs are decriminalized as is prostitution.

Without any strong moral convictions either way I am 100% certain that the Dutch way is better than the others. Drug abuse is relatively low, teenage pregnancy is low, HIV prevalence is low etc etc and the criminal manufacturing factories (jails) are underpopulated in comparison to say the US.

Do they have it all right - no. It is just a better more mature way.

As for the OP - we need to start shooting the imbeciles who believe that drinking tea made from Rhino horn will improve their sex lives - make Viagra free?

The actual poachers in Africa are not the ones to blame, they only want to feed their families. If the State would just let them sell the best "grass" in the world (Durban poison or Malawi) to the USA and Europe they would not need to kill wild animals to feed their families

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#17
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/10/2010 8:25 PM

In the US, we spend huge amounts of money attempting to stop illegal drugs using interdiction,eradication,prosecution & encarceration & not rehabilitating anyone after the fact & we have failed miserably. We have spent huge amounts of money making this problem worse & our government is still attempting to proceed in the same manner. Freud would call this crazy, trying to solve a problem in the same manner that failed before. When half of the citizens are behind security gates or protected by alarms/weapons & the other half cannot be employable because of a drug conviction like marihuana will we finally decide to change the manner that this so called drug war is conducted. When the hundred year anniversary is celebrated maybe then we will be able to look back & find the solution to this drug problem in education & rehabilitation, out of the control of the police state who only abuse everyone they touch. Imagine where the trillions of dollars could have been better spent & the really great nation that this money could have produced,but no let us waste lives & destroy the economy first. As we borrow 3 billion dollars a day to promote our way of life on earth, the day will fast arrive when we will be forced to face this problem in a constructive manner & maybe the world will follow us & of course we will say we were right all the time. Gotta love this homeland for better or worse.

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#18
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/10/2010 8:46 PM

gwaynehild

Just a friendly suggestion: Why don't you start a thread here on CR4 concerning these matters. I just don't have the time but would participate in a modest way. Nothing much to do with engineering but relevant for many. Maybe under education. If there is space for animal science..............................

Have a great day, Ky.

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#19
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/12/2010 11:43 AM

Wow two halves make a whole. So what you said was the entire US population is either unemployed or in prison. Our GNP must be worse then Sudan. Oh wait... maybe what you mean is half are working but have to stay behind security gates and armed to defend themselves against the other half that are smoking marijuana and are incarcerated. Though i find this hard to believe, since marijuana doesn't usually make people particularly violent or degrade their rational thought processes to the point where they commit violent acts out of drug driven needs, unlike heroine or methamphetamines. Though if this was true, it would be more productive to get the unemployable half separated securely from the armed half so they can work. The fact that employers don't want to hire people convicted of marijuana use is on the employers and convictions don't impact that necessarily, employers choice. The employers test for marijauna use and could continue to test for drug use, even if we changed it to a misdemeanor, and they could still refuse to employ people on the basis of that use if they so desired. Some employer dont really care, general construction is an example, and they hire such. On the other hand, chemical or environmental engineers working with hazardous materials or waste tend to get tested for most everything once a year (at least, depending on exposures), and will be fired for use on the job (though any use would likely lead to some reason to terminate).

BTW education and rehabilitation can not be mandated, drug addicts do not learn or change until they have some epiphany that drives them to want that knowledge and change. So wasting money educating and rehabilitating is just as unproductive, unless you can do something to shake them up and force them to desire to change their condition. You can not force someone to change their behavior or learn, unless they are motivated to do such. Plus as an employer maybe it is a good sign that someone can not make good decisions enough to get themselves convicted of felony use of marijauna, you would have to be a pretty heavy user (read dealer) to get sent to prison for most any drug offense. The few people i know who got sent to prison dramatically changed their behaviors on release, because they did not want to risk going back. While the many other users i know, who do not deal to support their habit, continue to let the use degrade their lives, are not as productive as they might be, and just happy to get home to their habit. No one can convince them to change, and since they don't get arrested all the time, they aren't motivated to change, with one exception a few i have known as they have gotten older have responded to the threat of impending death when they have had organ failures or near death incidents that the doctors inform them are related to heavy long term chronic abuse of drugs (you know much like smokers when they really discovered smoking was going to kill them).

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/12/2010 11:50 AM

"BTW education and rehabilitation can not be mandated, drug addicts do not learn or change until they have some epiphany that drives them to want that knowledge and change. So wasting money educating and rehabilitating is just as unproductive, "

The education comes BEFORE the addiction. Its the old "an ounce of prevention" thingie.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/12/2010 4:24 PM

Even before the addiction, they just do not listen until they have some experience that is directly relevant to them that causes some realization and desire to learn. Most addicts don't start off as addicts, and most people think that learning about drug addiction and drugs is irrelevant to them and a waste of time, even as children. No one thinks they will become a drug addict, even many well past the point of addiction don't believe they are. Education is like giving some one a prescription for antibiotics, when they do not believe they have a problem or need the antibiotics, they won't listen, likely forget about the prescription the moment they leave and likely won't use it (unless they have some underlieng experience that informs them they should take it seriously). The best way to get people to listen is to have some consequences that they understand could realistically impact them.

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#22
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Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/12/2010 4:55 PM

Oh come on now. If your reasoning were true would not every person become a drug, alcohol and nicotine addict? And only after becoming addicted would they reform. I don't think the statistics back you up but I can't search for any right now. Isn't the rate of young people who start to smoke dropping in countries with vigorous anti-tobacco advertising? Maybe not as fast as some would like and you will never erradicate them all but if I knew then what the kids know now about cigarettes I would have never started. Historically alcohol consumption dropped when prohibition ended suggesting there is a noticable part of the population drank only because it was illegal. Remove the forbidden allure and you remove one of the reasons some people induldge.

Anybody have any reliable studies or stats on these topics?

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/12/2010 5:21 PM

Anybody have any reliable studies or stats on these topics?

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

If what these earnest people have published is not enough, I don't know what is. After I had a closer look, not a fly over, all of my questions were answered. Well, not all, but it was enough for me to recognize that the enemy is within.

It will hurt, Ky.

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#25
In reply to #22

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/12/2010 8:23 PM

A couple of things, one addiction doesn't correlate to the lack of knowledge or experience. A person must have a personality that lends itself to addiction and to taking risks. As far as the prohibition removal, the change it rates is more likely top corrplate to the fact that the economy took a huge dive immediately prior to the repeal of prohibition, and during the late 1920's people had a lot amount of available capital to expend on luxuries like alcohol and partying. Since their are still dry counties in the nation you can easily compare the rates of alcohol consumption between two diferent counties at the same time, to account for the variable impact of economic means on the purchase of luxuries. Though there is a some correlation between telling young people what not to do, and they rebeling to do the opposite. However, advertising telling them not to do something because it is dangerous to their health is no more productive, as you are still telling them what not to do except with no short term obvious consequences. Try telling a teenager not to do something because it may be bad for their health in 10 year, or some other impact on that time scale, and with no punishment or negative reinforcements. There is still the forbidden allure as presented in the large amount of advertising, just no consequences in the immediate future.

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#24
In reply to #4

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/12/2010 8:20 PM

Are you saying we need either private or public border guards at company 'A' where the product of animal parts ships and at company 'B' where the product is received. I hope your thinking money wise in the long term. I never really cared so much about the extinction of animals so much as the extinction of CO2 absorbing plants in South America and beyond that can produce drugs that prevent cancer or other life threatening diseases.

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/13/2010 9:46 AM

No there is nothing required at individual companies. Most trade in endangered species is international and we already have those guards in place, they are the customs officers at every border crossing and port. They need better resources though to conduct more inspections of incoming (and out going) cargo. They need to better enforce the laws already in place, namely the CITES treaty. That treaty also covers trade in endangered plants, not just animals. The world has some pretty good tools to cut down on this trade they are just not enforced well enough.

I agree with you though, in the long run we will probably suffer more (or not benefit as much) from the loss of some plants on the endangered list than we will from the loss of some animal species.

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#14

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/08/2010 9:43 PM

Now that we are off topic a bit let me introduce this link. I became a member after reading through it. No doubt this is the way to look at it.

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

Apologies to the OP but it is all the same thing really, Ky.

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#15

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/09/2010 12:15 AM

After reading so many posts, with many good comments, and others that I do not feel really address the subject, another post here. I believe we are talking about endangered species , and their body parts , being sold on the black market. We have now entered in prostitution etc. I do not believe that females, and their organs are "endangered"-- I do believe that the major agenda for ANY corruption, is to bypass the normal production cycle, of Produce / Promote / Sell and make your money. LEGALLY. This again goes back to Ethics. How many Tibetans go out and take the Snow Leopards for profit? My guess? Not a one--Why? Because of a basic Ethical upbringing and a peer pressure against that type of behavior. I have been with farmers in Central America, who have been pressured to bring in certain birds, parrots , and the like.--They refuse to partake--Why?? Ethics and the peer pressure of their fellow farmers. They were raised to observe the common good, and have passed it on to their children . They respect life, and Spirit, and in the hardest of times, that is what they use to pull themselves through---All religions have a common thread of Ethics and Morality--I would venture to say that most crimes of these types are committed by secular types--Not all, by a long shot, but by those people that have no concern of their neighbor, or of Ethics, or the concern of the "life" around them. It is all about them, and a short cut to money. Teach your children well, and educate those that are unaware..

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/09/2010 7:32 AM

Thanks for trying to bring things back on topic C-Mac!

You reminded us that there are two problems at hand (which another commenter alluded to):

  • Killing animals like sharks for body parts.
  • Moving species to another location where they could become invasive and change the local landscape.

Both problems reduce the number of animals in their original location - further endangering the species.

There was actually an article about this in my local paper yesterday. It was about plants, not animals, but the point was the same. Fines for having the "invasive" plants can be up to $1,000.

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#29

Re: Endangered Species Traded Online

04/14/2010 12:51 PM

"There are many reasons to explain why some of the world's species have become endangered."

Here is one of those reasons.

Man pleads guilty in scheme to smuggle songbirds from Vietnam in another man's pants

12/04/2010 7:06:00 PM

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
LOS ANGELES - A man has pleaded guilty to conspiracy for his role in smuggling songbirds into the United States from Vietnam by hiding them in another man's pants.

Duc Le entered the plea in federal court Monday. The 34-year-old man faces up to five years in prison when he is sentenced in June.

Co-defendant Sony Dong pleaded guilty last year to illegally importing wildlife after authorities discovered 14 songbirds strapped to his legs on a flight from Vietnam to Los Angeles.

Authorities say the birds could have sold for up to $400 each. The birds survived the trip.

Le was arrested after investigators found 51 songbirds at his home.

Dong faces up to 20 years in prison when he is sentenced April 26.

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