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35 comments

Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

Posted September 01, 2010 12:00 AM by Jaxy

I've had a few problems with my car, ranging from tire leaks to air conditioner problems. After I wrote the air conditioning blog, my A/C steadily declined until I had to bring it into a shop to see if it could be fixed once and for all. The mechanic found nothing wrong with the compressor and stated that it worked fine, but for some reason it wasn't turning on when the A/C button was hit.

The mechanic wasn't sure what the issue was and I was left with two options: a costly part that wasn't completely guaranteed to fix the problem, or a cheap fix that included adding a relay to keep the air compressor running constantly. I chose the cheap fix (pictured at left).

I Spy a Broken Belt

I drive a lot, including 40 miles to-and-from work every day, which is a lot of wear and tear on my car. On my way home from a particularly long drive, I heard a whining sound that stopped after approximately 30 seconds. It didn't take long for the battery light to turn on and for my nerves to kick in. Upon arriving safely in my driveway (which was, in-part, due to luck) I popped the hood and noticed a broken belt.

A few weeks ago, my father (with little assistance from me) changed two belts in my car. One of the belts he changed was one of the belts that broke. It affected my alternator, air conditioner compressor, and crankshaft. As I peered under the hood, I saw melted rubber from the belt everywhere. I called my father and he asked me if all of the pulleys moved freely. I checked them all and they did.

Guess and Check

My father and I attached the old belt back on and tried replicating the scenario. A few seconds after I turned my A/C on, smoke rose from the hood and I quickly turned it off. One of the shafts wasn't moving, causing an ample amount of friction. Calls were placed to see if there was an easy fix to the problem. There were many estimates on how much a new compressor would cost, ranging from ~$300-$670. Not only would I have to pay for a new compressor, but for the labor and the cost of a tow (there was no way my car was getting anywhere without the alternator functioning).

Then I remembered the fix that kept the compressor running constantly. I took out the relay that kept the compressor running and I crossed my fingers as I turned the key. The car was running and there was no smoke. The battery light disappeared from the dashboard and a sigh of relief came over me. What could have been a well over $1000 fix only ended up costing $20 for a new belt (shown in the picture to the right with an orange arrow).

Now I am left with a left time-pressing choice: Do I suffer through the winter without an A/C, or do I pay for a fix? I think I am going to have to brave it through the winter. I have never been so happy to have a semi-functional A/C! I have driven to work several times and I am happy to report no issues or squeals. I am not sure what I will do when next summer hits the need for an A/C is direr, but I will have plenty of time to weigh my options. Feel free to leave any suggestions in the comments!

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#1

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/01/2010 5:26 AM

hey, great story.
The moral there is fix the problem not the symptom, the fault finding isn't finished until you've found the root cause.
Of course the probable villain of the piece is the mechanic who seems to have done a half arsed job.
It's experiences like these which get us thinking methodically and logically about stuff.

Del
(I knew my belt broke when my trousers fell down)

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#2

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/01/2010 10:51 AM

Hello jaxy:

Don't worry about the winter, it is totally other parts of you A/C wich will be working during it: A radiator-like heater located under your dashboard, thru which flows the antifreeze; a little turbine forcing air thru this heater, and a couple of Jaxy controlled air vents on the dashboard, one for defogging the winshield, the other for your confort, and you can adjust them in any combination (as you surely do when required).

About the compressor, it's very likely to be stuck and will need replacement, but that can wait for you to save some money, just don't connect it again; by the way, what a long drive to your job ! I hope it pays for the gas and your time ! OR I hope you enjoy it very much.

Yahlasit

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/01/2010 11:06 AM

It is a pretty long drive, but you know what? It is worth it. It pays the bills and I have a good time at work. It also helps that I like to drive somewhat. Plus, the three-day weekends are nice.

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#6
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/01/2010 5:27 PM

3 day weekends! are you working 12 hour shifts?

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/01/2010 10:06 PM

~10 hrs/day + 1 hour 30 minute total commute time. I might as well be working 12 hour shifts.

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#9
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 3:28 AM

Is gloating allowed on CR4?
It's sunny today, I don't have much work on so I just phoned in and said I'll have the day off as holiday.
Mrs Cat bougt a flat pack chest of drawers which needs assembling, and I've a bow to play with.
Hmmm that'll make it a one and a half day week this week, it's tough here.
Del
(And if Mrs Cat needs help with her chest and draws...

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#29
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 8:06 AM

I wish I was lucky enough to only work a 12 hour shift. With the (sometimes) 4 hour commute that makes it 15 with the above math, but some days (like one three weeks ago) are about 17 with no commute. What was that about 3 day weekends???? I might get one this weekend - but Mrs Designs has a long list of honey-do's ready for me - have not been home in 3 weeks...

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#30
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 8:19 AM

I feel so bad now, 10 minute drive to work each way through nice countryside, 9-5 job although I often work until 6 & every weekend off, and on top of that I love the work & have great workmates.

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#7
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/01/2010 7:56 PM

I'm working 12 Hr. shifts but have 3 day weekends only theoretically (hell, it's tirening !).

O.K. Jaxy, whatever you do, don't turn on the compressor by any means before it gets serviced (more likely replaced).

Have a good one !

Yahlasit

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#4

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/01/2010 11:31 AM

Just fyi, it's a good idea to run the a/c for 10 minutes or so every few weeks even during winter. This keeps the freon (or whatever they use now) seals from drying out and cracking.

Hope you can still roll your windows down.

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#5

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/01/2010 3:52 PM

Put a toggle switch in series with the relay.

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#10

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 4:29 AM

Talk to an a/c engineer, it may just be a failed clutch in the compressor. Depending on the model this may be repairable at a much lower cost than replacing the whole unit.

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#11

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 6:32 AM

It could just be the compressor clutch. These are usually replacable units separate from the compressor itself. Also, is the car worth the effort and $ for the repair? Oh and you should replace the belt that was partly melted by the compressor. They are cheap enough that you should always use a new one after they become suspect. Especially with a 40 mile drive to work. (me too)

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#14
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 10:05 AM

The problem with it just being the compressor clutch or just being a component of the compressor is that both my father and I aren't comfortable trying to mess with it anymore than we already have. If we bring it to an auto shop, OF COURSE we are going to need a whole new compressor unit installed yadda yadda yadda... Sometimes I just don't trust them. It would be worth the cost of the repair, but I am hesitant. This is why I am sitting on a decision until I feel I need a/c.

Don't worry, the belt that was partly melted was the old one before my father changed the belts. This way if the belt broke again during 'testing,' we wouldn't have to buy another new belt. I put the new one on before driving.

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#19
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 12:50 PM

It sounds like you need a new mechanic. One who is competant and honest. Hard to find I know. That will actually be the hardest part of the repair! And if the compressor or clutch seizes for good you could probably buy a belt for your model vehicle without AC and bypass the compressor completly until you have the problem fixed. Replacing the compressor and recharging the AC system is really not that big of a job for a shop. The most expensive aspect of it will be the parts. Good luck.

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#12

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 6:59 AM

The air compressor will turn freely until power is applied to the magnetic clutch then when you start the car and get current the clutch will engage and if the compressor is seized you will get this condition. Should be the only variable at this time. I do not feel that running the compressor 10% is good for it or your gasoline costs.

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#13

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 8:41 AM

impress with how you handled the issues so far........exept the bandaid issue. (which is the issue) but you live and learn.....If you and your dad is handy try a rebuilt or salvaged A/C unit. You'll have to recharge it....freon and tools would be about 100.00 but recharging and handling the gas is not for the novice.......p911

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#15
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 10:09 AM

You can get DIY recharging kits, I've used this one after changing a compressor & it worked OK. I got this in a ½ price offer otherwise it would have been cheaper to let the garage do it.

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#16
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 10:39 AM

I bought the refrigerant fo jc whitney. The vacuum compress and recharging unit from harbor freight all total under 75.00 but jaxy just posted she at the limit of the work they are willing to on their own.......but still there are rebuilt units that are cheaper I'm sure.........p911

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#18
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 11:24 AM

this a A/C manifold-gauge was on sale for $29.99 plus a 20% discount and this vacuum pump I used for purging the system @ $59.99 plus a 20% discount.

I think I also bought a gauge also which was around $10.00 ...but some of the HF gauges I question the accuracy. That was last spring and the A/C works great ever since.

p911

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#17

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 10:49 AM

my dear

please see another autoshop to carefully check your car problem and avoid going back to that mechanic who is unsure. It may cause your life.

belts mostly get damage when not properly installed (misaligned), touching or scratching something, and the driven get stock or not properly fixed (loss pulleys, loss basebolt).

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#20

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt more issues

09/02/2010 2:18 PM

you will need more than a compressor, the metal shavings are in the system now and you will need to flush condensor and evap cores and hoses, change the reciever drier as it has a sock in it that will be contaminated with pump particles, add the required amounts of ac oil to the components and compressor prior to vac draw down and charging of new freon, large time for draw down and heat gun to raise oil temps will make for happy recharge, after the failure of suspect component I thinks that low charge pressure made the system low press switch on the suction side disallow the system to work,, and forcing override is never the answer, source the problem and fix. good luck, when in doubt read, pump and task are exspensive, used parts are not options,,

Sincerely
Mitch retired Peugeot mechanic

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#21

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/02/2010 11:07 PM

You might want to just disable the clutch and live with "poor mans AC" (roll the windows down!)

I bought a car with similar problem (for $35.00 - with $500 worth of new tires!) of course, the compressor was siezed.

We were extremely low on funds, and I was not sure if engine had been damaged by subsequent overheating, as the water pump was driven by same belt....

I disassembled the compressor clutch, and replaced a bearing damaged by the carnage due to seizure - By the way, the bearing was from Chrysler, the damaged AC was in a Ford... a used bearing no less!!!

The kids had to eat, man!

Without the Clutch coil or pressure plate installed, the compressor pulley had become an idler, allowing the belt to travel sucessfully.

I elected to NOT fix AC (see "low funds" above) but the car ran great.

I remember many trips, 8 hours each way, Pulling a 5000-6000Lb camping trailer (a gift from mom-in-law) up and down the east coast during the hottest summer days.

Home made trailer hitch, (all the hitch guys said the trailer was too big for the car, car was rated for 2500 lbs or so - my wife suggested I stop being so negative... what a woman!)

What did I know? as soon as I heard "can't be done", I knew I had to do it, plus camping site was already reserved!

Great camping trips on the Maryland shore, Site rental cost more than tow vehicle and camper combined.

Some people would say we were poor, but man, I never felt so Rich, or lucky!

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 2:45 AM

Great story, put a smile on my face

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#22

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 12:17 AM

I agree with Mitch (Post #20) You get a GA.

I think the system was losing pressure/refrigerant and the low pressure cut-out switch is what stopped the compressor from operating (its made this way to protect the compressor and the rest of the system when you get a refrigerant leak). You then bypassed this and forced the compressor to run 100% of the time. Then the system finally ran dry and the compressor gave up the ghost and siezed. This was the somke and broken belt issue. Once you removed the "relay" the compressor clutch released and the pully was able to "freewheel" as it would when the system was off. This allows the belt to run and drive the other accs (alt), but you cannot turn the A/C clutch on, as the A/C compressor is now siezed (boat anchor).

Moral - Don't bypass the safety switch :(

Tony

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#27
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 4:02 AM

Bravo Tony "Old Tech"! Perfect answer from a man who obviously knows his stuff.

Modern A/C diagnostic tools include a UV dye in the lube oil and super sensitive sniffers that can detect refrigerant leaks at remarkably low levels.

The first tells you there is a leak in the general area; the second helps you find it.

A properly repaired A/C system will also require a new receiver-dryer. Failure to replace that unit too will usually void any warranty on the compressor.

Prior to charging, the system needs to be pumped down with a vacuum pump and thus purged of any air and moisture that may have entered the lines. The protective relay is deliberately defeated by a trained A/C mechanic to allow this process. Ditto too recharging the system. If the system has lost refrigerant, the same protective relay must be defeated so the compressor is running when the charge is applied.

Judging from your comments, it appears that the system was simply loosing refrigerant. It appears it only needed for the leak to be fixed and the system recharged.

Everything else was unecessary and caused consequential damage that could have been avoided.

L.J.

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#23

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 12:52 AM

not sure if this will work but you can relieve some gas out if it is 134a it wont damage the ozone and get a can of oil with conditioner in it and put it in you wont have to let out much because only a little is added when you put the oil in. It took some time but it work on my Mitsubishi Montero .

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#25

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 3:41 AM

Did we really need the orange arrow?

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#26
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 3:42 AM

Well spotted!

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#28
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 7:06 AM

Ah that's where it went, I'm always loosing my arrows.
I shot an arrow in the air,
It fell to earth I know not where,
I loose all my damn arrows that way

Del

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#33
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Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/18/2010 11:36 PM

I know the feeling. I seem to be loosing my marbles.

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#31

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 1:17 PM

It sounds like your problems are at least temporarily solved, since I am unaware of how the mechanic jury rigged your system, it might be prudent to take one more precaution. Since AC compressor runs during the defrost cycle you might want to consider removing the power lead from the AC clutch. This will ensure that it cannot be activated the first time you use the defroster, no use having another smoke test.

The other advice you've received about a new dryer and flushing the system is quite appropriate. Whatever you do if you decide to have the AC repaired make sure you take it to a competent repair shop. The new refrigerant oils have an affinity for holding on to moisture, to the point they will not release moisture trapped in the oil even under a deep vacuum. A thoroughly clean and dry system with a good dryer is a must. I've witnessed multiple failures on refits where the serviceman was unfamiliar with the the newer refrigerants and oils.

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#32

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/03/2010 9:02 PM

Jaxy,

Sorry to hear about your A/C problems, I had to go through the whole routine myself this past spring. It turned out to be a bad compressor which was readily available online. I had a good mechanic put it on and service the A/C system as part of the work.

Keep in mind that if you absolutely have to, you might be able to get a bypass pulley from one of these sources:

http://www.partspros.com/a-c-bypass-pulleys.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_5930030_replace-pontiac-sunfire-chevy-cavalier.html

There are lots more, these are just two examples. Basically, this is an absolute last-ditch desperation ploy because the A/C compressor (and system) is pretty much written off as a lost cause and the goal is to simply get the car back on the road. I don't think you're there yet, this is just another option to consider.

Good luck with it,

Logan

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#34

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

09/18/2010 11:45 PM

I think you also need to remember that before you damaged your compressor, you had a leak. The leak may not have been the compressor. So after the compressor, dryer,and expansion device are replaced, you may still have a leak. It may not be possible to find it until the other components have been replaced. Good luck.

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#35

Re: Troubleshooting My Broken Belt

10/10/2010 8:06 PM

I appreciate the concern which is been rose.This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are unanimous and needs to be appreciated by everyone.
**************
johndouglas

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