Does Your Management Listen?

Thanks Guru. If somebody given this advise 30 yrs back, I would have changed my life all together. Only MBAs & Business people ruling this entire world and they do not have any human ethics.

Hi Nyam,

Yes, this is the fact but businesses hire them because they, MBAs, talk well, make presentations, and other important things that never produced a "penny". They run businesses and many go into bankruptcy but they get their bonuses before all doors are closed. It's all around the world is the same but what we can do against?

I worked in small to huge companies. Today, I discovered that alone is the best or eventually with few people teached by you what and how to do things. It's the best for you and your customers, and producing results with profits and no one is screwed.

Wish you the best, Gil.

a new "Yes-Man" aka "The-Butt-Whisperer".

so funny I just about fell out of my chair... probably wouldn't be so funny if I didn't know a few....

Hi Markar,

Yes, management doesn't listen because changes create risks and no one likes them, the changes and the ensuing risks. However, if you get good meeting with the boss or the real decision maker, explaining that you have a project, modifying the workplace to get more productivity, less variations, more customer sayisfaction, and profits, she/he will listen and you have a good chance to realize what you want. Many times I have the same difficulties during my 54 years working time for others but I stepped out very often for better horizon and you can get, not absolutely perfect, but it can be rewarding. However, if you are, without proving, a "Yes-Man", the future is not very colourful for nobody.

Knowledge, honesty, differentness, and originality pay, Gil.

Does my management listen? To some degree, but then that is to expected of crocodiles as they are all mouth, have very tiny ears and will bite you on your can if you make waves.

Hi Un,

Don't forget the size of their brain! The "to some dgree" is litle or more than expected? Be honest, you have some good words but not approval about changes and improvement! Forget the crocodiles, tell us what was the project and the final result of your project, Gil.

The effectiveness lies on how the presentation is made,collective views, mostly written form with facts, figures, expected consequences ending with benefits in terms of production, profits etc. Any business man needs facts about return on investment. So=, put forward the suggestions in the business view point and not just technology or technical part alone.

Hi S,

Presentation is the best solution. However, presentation with eventual collective view, I don't think so. But I thought that you are the promoter of the changes, it doesn't help. Collectivety creates deviations and differences. Also, there are no facts when we have a presentation about a project, just predictions with risks. You are right that profits, in the suggestions, are more easily adopted than anothers.

S, don't forget that you are the technical person and the boss or the management are running the business. Let us know your last tentative concerning changes, Gil.

The reality fact is human group interactions are typically complex, due to lack of unity of thinking. The so called collective work achievements are rarest demonstrations of best group efforts. Some how it works serious, only if the sword of survival hangs up above you all's head.

The usual story is

*One man - totally responsible

*Two men/ women/ men &women- differences of opinion[ conflicts start]

*Many people- politics starts, chaos and focus is diverted

The typical successful leader should be a silent dictator with aristocratic skills, extracting best of every one and designing the final plan.

Leadership without arrogance -perhaps the best and effective personality trait.

I think there will always be a disconnect between typical management and capable maintenance personnel. In my experience, competent maintenance people have the ability to understand and manage the mechanical aspects of their assignments, which typically do not include an abundance of financial forecasting, modelling, reporting, etc. On the other hand, to management (bean counters), numbers, reports, and tiresome paperwork are ALL that they can grasp.

I suggest a simple analogous example:

If you were to take a Mason Jar of beans, or other similar objects, present them to hands-on personnel and to management personnel, and request a count of the contents, the results would most likely be as follows:

The hands-on employee would quickly assess the approximate number of beans in the surface layer, then count the approximate number of layers, multiply them together mentally, and respond with an estimate that is well within suitable error range of the actual number - a process that would take just a minute or two.

The management employee would dump the contents onto a suitable surface and literally count all of the beans - a process that would consume considerable time and result in a significant waste of time and talent for an exact number, the benefit of which is not in proportion to the cost of obtaining it.

The stated example of a contents count, " I've been there, done that". I guesstimated a figure, the bean counters wanted an exact number. The container was overturned, the items [railway pandrol plates] were hand counted, and DAMN - I WAS OUT BY TWO ! ; or AN ERROR RATE of LESS THAN ONE PERCENT !!!!!, and yes it took quite some time to count. [they were costed out at less the $1-00 each]. The auditor didn't question too many figures after that !! But maybe I'm weird, as I can understand the financial implications of the maintenance department, but there's many in management who have no idea how to run things efficiently with the staff and materials they have.

If one can't make their case to management it seems the tendency is to blame management?

The object is to obtain the best annual results - not to have a pissing contest.

"If one can't make their case to management it seems the tendency is to blame management?"

and the other half of that story is that "the employees don't give a sh*t"

but in situations where management gets serious about doing things right, all of a sudden, the employees aren't so dumb after all.

Having worked in companies with both, I would say that when the attitude of management improves, then the communication improves, and then the ideas flow. Management must create the 'open channel' of communications... aka listening. It has nothing to do with making a good presentation. It could even just be a suggestion on a form in a drop box. If managment isn't listening, it might as well be toilet paper.

I've seen it both ways. Things don't change until management makes it a priority. I would consider this a law of nature. I've a long list of hamburger-headed bosses giving me this conviction.

Chris

ga and exactly.

The maintenance manager should be an engineer or well experienced individual. Communicating with plant management is up to him. If he is smart he will be a good listener.

Having said that, probably 95% of solutions offered from down in the ranks are either totally off base, dangerous or just plain stupid. Many maintenance guys can come up with some rather fantastic explanations for events.

"the boss spent the absolute minimum, took his 10% of unspent budget bonus & moved down the road"

I personally experienced this exact scenario....the whole time trying to discreetly warn what was going on. Seriously now, how hard is it to refuse to sign off any purchase requisitions. This made him look like a hero... on paper... until he was gone because the maintenance guys did their level best with duct tape and bailing wire which made it appear that everything was OK. Their coworkers were in a bind so the rose to the occasion until the USDA said "not only no - but hell no". After that the manager that basically used the annual budget system to basically embezzle money (unspent budget bonus) was gone and black listed inside the industry.

Now to address the comments from another poster about making a thoroughly documented and well presented business case for something requiring capital expenditure - you are 100% correct but you missed my point. I've personally written and presented dozens of projects (millions of $$) but I now just verbally (or maybe with supporting email) tell Management, Supervision and Engineering ( I don't talk to "The Dark Side" - accounting ) what we need to do, why it needs to be done and even hold their hand and show them how to do it - but I make more money if we don't. I'm not going to get in a fist fight to cut my own pay. Again, I would very much like my team like to be the best in industry and even loose some cash in the process if they would listen - but I'm tired of fighting. I need more coffee.............

I liked to use the suggestion program as a tool to make managers answer questions in a monthly meeting with all the other department managers...

the trick was to write the suggestion in such a way that it wasn't a complaint, but an actual solution or at least define the problem in a clear way

I experienced a similar situation, sadly it wasn't about money however... For my story reads just like yours except exchange "Supply Officer" for "boss", and "some navy medal" for "10% bonus", and add in a "for nearly starving the crew"... (from my stint in the the US submarine force).

"The object is to obtain the best annual results - not to have a pissing contest."

In reality, the terms "best annual results" and "a pissing contest" are juxtaposed, due to ingrained human element arrogance and abject disdain for anyone of "lower rank".

Another keyword "annual" results, explains it succinctly.

I have sorted through many suggestions from the rank and file (as well as from the owners) in both operations and maintenance.

Suggestions were generally along the line that the bastards in the other department don't know what they are doing.

A large majority indicated a need for further training as the yo-yo that would make such a comment didn't really understand what was happening.

The comments here seem to be coming from floor workers and not engineering staff really.

GA Garthh.

If I may allowed (as a former "floor worker") to add, the suggestion program in place at the automobile manufacturing plant I worked, contributed to success for achievement of the all-important bottom line, as is evidenced by continuous operation without the assistance of the government.

Furthermore, I was led to CR4 by suggestion of Globalspec (to include the text in the upper right corner of my screen suggesting that I "tell a friend") in my routine search for products that are required. Nowhere did I notice that there existed a prohibition of input of persons of so called "low rank". My only hope is that I and others here, rank (according to some) in the 5% left after the remaining 95% are relegated to perpetual stupidity.

Well said

Hi Un,

Watch yourself because you can be in the miscalculated 1%. After Paretto's rules, 80/20, you have to be in the 20% of the previous 20%, which is only 4%. You need to be precise because you don't get your bonus at the end of this year, and it's here. Please, check the numbers before write down, Gil.

NB: If still you are a floor worker as you said, no one gives a hec about you and you will be for sure in the 1% out of the bonus system. Wish you a better job for the next year's bonus. Laugh!

As a low-ranking former floor worker I am allowed an "elliptical window of tolerance" as stipulated in ISO.XXXXXX.

Don't disagree with much of what you said - but generally to make a valid suggestion one has to fully understand the process and equipment. Operations and Maintenance foremen were in included and consulted on all decisions.

Many workers have little idea of what is really going on. Their view is often too limited to really assist. You always have the wise guys that know too much but they are to be weeded out before they affect production.

The last plants I ran most consider anything over 7600/7800 hours to be great. We beat 8000 hours by 200 to 400 hours every year - due to team effort.

All were expected to participate and did.

To understand the operations of a complex such as we had, one needed to know all the limitations and opportunities in regards to operating costs, gas and type of ore availability and a thousand other minor details that the worker never has access to.

We processed 12500 MT to 15000 MT of iron ore per day. The gas bill alone was over a million dollars per day. Iron ore maybe another 2.5 million dollars.

If the people on shift or the day maintenance crew didn't have what they needed our operations costs could easily stay the same while making off grade product. In another scenario the plant is down (lost production) and the steel mill is short of the feed mix they planned on - lost profits.

We had weekly sessions on how to do better at controlling costs - in detail. Suggestions by the bean counters were always heard. We had one who had an engineering degree and then got an MBA. He was very useful but they others much less so.

You respect your subordinates and you support them - no question.

Present the problem along with a viable solution that will make them look good ..... they generally listen to that.

OR work in an organisation where the bosses understand what you are doing from a technical perspective and are not just bean counters or inexperienced MBAs....

Hi Wawa,

The first sentence is excellent.

The second, where you find a boss who can catch your technical explanations and knowledge? It's rare or non-existant. Remember the word: "EGO"! The perspectives are dark but you can start over again with more caress in the back and wait for the result.

Times are long to wait approval or what we would like to get but I suggest a better solution, start over again in another company, Gil.

NB: My happiness is the more important for me!!!

I have been fortunate, in that, over the years and companies most of my managers have also been senior engineers, who have worked in the fields for a number of years and who, although they wanted the most cost effective solution to a problem, also wanted a good engineering solution, and most have been open to discuss the issues, bounce ideas around and make suggestions, mostly helpful ones - It has also helped that they have seen me as competent and open to listen to their suggestions.

Communication is always a two way street, that none of us possess all knowledge, and that there are many ways to skin a cat!

Also we can all be blinded into too narrow an approach, whereas a broader perspective can often present a better solution.

You are fairly lucky.

Reading through this, and given I 'change managers' with each new client, I readily identify with most said above.

I use a principle of "enough rope".

I explain a path, listen to the reasons they would not like to follow it, mention the possible outcomes of their 'solutions' and let them go ahead with out further argument.

Ideally one steers them to a 'less costly' option, but one that makes the point that it pays to listen.

However, I'm usually involved with management some at least of whom have realised they are out of their depth, and seldom with those who have yet to see they are going to be.

But to anyone above that has the latter truly deaf model - perhaps just quietly let them take some rope, and be patient.

Hi 34/5,

Watch the legth of your rope. If is too long, you fell somewhere you don't want to go. If is too short, you never get what you want. Again, we need to be good to persuade the above person that we are smart too or not idiot, and could participate or initiate something good for the company we choose to work.

When someone talk about costs, stop and go out of the meeting. Discussion about costs gives you more work and you have to convince again people that you are good. It's a never ending story. If you want to work more on the same subject, make another presentation and wait for handshakes and rewards. Let me what you get, Gil.