B.S. Buyers Beware

Once, only a small number of students had the brains, work ethic and interest to complete a Uni degree (in any subject).

Now the percentage of suitable people is the same, but everyone wants (and is entitled to) a degree, the solution has been to lower the standards so more pass.

Here in Australia we've had an "Education revolution". Basically lots of middle class kids from poorer Asian countries have been sold 2nd rate degrees. Many are keen, hard working and intelligent but some are lazy and stupid, unfortunately the possession of an "Engineering degree" is no longer a reliable method of separating one from the other.

It's sad, but a BS in Engineering is no longer as valuable as it once was. Ffej

Not everyone is "college material".Many times an auto mechanic, welder or HVAC guy is far more useful to society than another lawyer, social worker, history, English lit or political science major. I saw a story where a woman borrowed over $40K/year to go to the "best" school for a BS degree in social science. She's now $250K in debt and can't find a job, and student loans are coming due. Social service workers don't start out with a salary that can pay a debt that size. What was she thinking???Some are more suited for technical college. They graduate from there and can certainly do more useful things than shuffle papers. When your car breaks down, your central heat goes out or tree roots clog your drain line, you don't need a BS graduate. But yes, some degrees are more valuable than others- degrees where you can actually make, manufacture or create something of value are far more valuable than degrees where you are in the service industry shuffling papers or transferring streams of 1's and 0's in binary code from one computer to another. Just my humble opinion here.

Actually, last study I was reading about a month ago was showing that people with degrees in math, sciences and engineering who go to work in their trained field had the least pay increase at all levels of advanced education over related uneducated workers in the field. Thus General Practicioner doctors dont earn more than registered nurses for instance even though a Doctor has a doctorate in medicine and a decade of education after highschool plus a few years of 100 hour weeks of training to become qualified and a RN has 2 years post secondary education. Similarly engineering technicians, construction laborers, etc.. are eanring nearly the same as engineers now. This occurs even though there is a huge excess in the labor market for the unskilled laborers and supposedly a huge shortage of the highly educated technical professionals. Surprisingly the best degrees to increase wage earnings are some of the easiest to attain, Business and Marketing degrees for people who go to work in their trained field. Social worker is obviously a bad choice, and yes there has been a proliferation of degrees with little educational value from colleges, but many of those are the really easy degrees to attain for the working pay scale nursing and related medical degrees, and teaching related degrees. This information seems to differ from information I receive from organizations like ASCE, but when I read it I thought about how those organizations do their statistics, ASCE and others do not differentiate between working professionals and managers very well, and most lower to mid level managers would rather consider themselves technical professionals rather than managers when it comes to those surveys. Surprisingly many organizartions like ASCE have been calling for more coursework for technical professional graduates, while other non-technical degrees like teaching have been using techniques to accredit more units to the same classes or reduce the units required to graduate so they can get more graduates through more rapidly. This creates a split between taking the easy path for much less overall cost, and in the case of nursing and medical technicians earning more money than a Doctor (2 years in school and start earning 50k a year 100 k in 5 to 10 years, or 10 years in school and 200 k in debt and then 100 hour weks for 2 years at $30k per year). there is just something a little upside down, and with a shortage of hgily educated technical personnel, as long as the cost to benefit ratio remains so much lower than uneducated jobs in the same field, you wil find a ever declining resource in those necessary positions, unless something happens in the labor market. I believe that the unions have in part been able to inflate their labor wages beyond what the market can bear, all the while pushing for more labor at a lower quality (which equates to more dues paid). This can not continue as a country can not advance when its technical professionals begin to disappear because the cost of becoming a professional exceeds the financial benefits.

There is no doubt education costs are getting too high and in most cases unaffordable for the average person. I am in Canada where our education costs are about half those in the States. As a parent of three university grads, I can say that the plan by the government here to allow investment from the parent into their child's education is great. We can sock money into a fund Max of $2K per year, topped by a $400 grant from the gov't each year, to be used exclusively for education. With the grant, that meant I earned 20% on that years investment and then accrued interest each year until it was used. I invested max money each year for each child until they finished their undergrad degrees. There was enough money in the fund to pay for three years of education for each child. The money I invest into the fund was 100% tax free (max of $2K/yr + $400.00 grant) and the grant could only be retained if the kids went to school. They essentially graduated loan free but I don't think they realize the deal they were given. Yes, it likely cost more for taxpayers to cede the grant plus the tax but for the country I think it is a good investment. I am not sure if American parents have a similar incentive to save for education.

I know many parents, who had kids go to US colleges on partial scholarships. At the time the Canadian dollar was very low in comparison to US dollar (now at or close to par). The kids going on these scholarships still found it very expensive because of the low dollar. Kids attending US schools without scholarships were spending on the order of three times a comparable education in Canada. Parents had to have very deep pockets indeed.

I would be curious to know why tuition in a good university here is about $5K/year while it seems to be 2 to 4 times that in USA. Why?

Because people in the USA have gotten too greedy.

I paid $485/unit for my BSBA in Project management. I am now losing my house because after getting the degree I did not experience enough increase to pay both student loans and mortgage at the same time. The penalties on student loans are more severe than a foreclosure.

In Russia a college education is still FREE.

Of course in Russia has socialized education. However, you have to be pre-qualified through secondary school performance, and they spend much more of their money on educating people in necessary academic fields like engineering, medicine, physical sciences, e.g. geology, physics, chemistry, not in business or social sciences. So if we reduced our educational system to just necessary academic degrees, and cut back to maybe 10% of our current award rate in business degrees, reduce oddball biology degrees and such in things like ecology or environmental activism, reduce the number of social sciences and non-professional psuedo-technical degrees we currently award and just allow the top achievers in secondary school to enter universities, the cost to society might be effective for a much more socialized educational system. However, I suspect that would cause a lot of discontent, even amongst some on this Blog who are not engineers, doctors or physical scientists.

Not True. I see a lot of women in Russia with Economics Degrees mostly.

Economics is sort of academic, not the same as a business degree. You also see Accounting degrees sometimes (though apparently there are trade schools that teach accounting also). What you don't see is every 3rd or 4th person graduating from a Russian University has a business degree, and of those 90% are in marketing or management. Plus you need to consider the perception bias. As you indicated you see Russian women with economics degrees. So this brings of the question of sampling, and what bias is there in that sampling. If you are talking about Russian women looking to meet american men (dating sites), then maybe that says more about the self sufficiency of Russian women with economics degrees, causing an inflation in their number looking outside Russia for a husband (or maybe they are lying about their degrees). I have met a few former soviet geologists and a physicist, they tend to lament the difference between the american valuation of a science education in comparison to how the soviet government used to educate them and treat them once in service. Surprisingly, they tended to think the vast majority of americans with college degrees were idiots compared to russians, and frowned upon our educational system (none of them ever seemed to believe there should be an opportunity for everyone to go to universities some day if they make up their deficiencies in a community college first, and all were sent to universities based on their secondary school testing). I forget the specifics, but I heard on KGO a couple of weeks ago that something like 40% of college entrants in universities in California require remedial math and science course to even qualify to actually enroll in their academic coursework for their degrees. the discussion was about how poorly our secondary schools are at preparing students in math and science, and one guy called in to whine that his daughter was doing well in english and wanted to be a teacher but she could not pass the minimum general ed math requirements to graduate, and why should a teacher have to know math and science if she is good in english and plans to teach language skills. This kind of thought process is why we fail to keep up. Places like Russia have socialized education, but they pay for the top tier of high school students and they promote useful education. More and more it seems the US is promoting the idea of there is a bachelors degree out there for everyone we just need to adapt the academic requirements to suit the persons capabilities (as long as they pay the university and don't require any lab space as that is expensive). also Russia doesn't have the problem that if say the state of Oregon won't certify your university, you just move the university to Colorado or such. There is no federal standards for universities or even the degrees they offer. There are some national organizations that set standards for established programs like ACS for chemistry, APS for physics or ABET for engineering, but by and large outside of the more established highly academically demanding programs for technical professionals, the standards are minimal with a downward trend in academic demands to increase enrollment.

Please learn to use whitespace!

You hit the nail on the head, Janissaries, and a GA to you... Greedy we are. I see it everyday as a Purchasing Mgr - companies will attempt to get orders with higher markups than they really need, which usually results in losing it all. This isn't really what the OP is discussing, but relevant to say the least.

As one who was forced into the Military just after high school in 1966, I have been competeting with the degreed who were able to earn deferments from military and go to college, for jobs I had more experience in than they did. I'm not whining, I was proud to serve my country, as my father did, and have sons who do the same today. At this point in life I am finally (too late?) being rewarded for the experience rather than denied for not having the "sheepskin".

BTW - you can have those student loans put on hardship deferments while you work through the mortgage problem.

Ken

I think you can get very good grants to attend universities for military service. Many people join the military just to be able to pay for college without having to take loans.

Though you are correct, student loans get deferred at a drop of a hat, for almost any reason. All he has to do is ask, and have some sort of reason that could be possibly construed as compelling. Outside of grants and scholarships, I took student loans for my BS degrees, but paid out of pocket for my MS. There is a point financially where, getting the dgree should cost the student something, it forces an evaluation of the utility of the degree to them and the value return they may get from their efforts. The problem with this idea is when the parents are wealthy and pay for their children to do whatever they desire (how else would you get archeologists or architectural historians).

Check this site out. Russia is still down the list in performance and generally closer to USA. The comparisons are on Reading, Math, and Science abilities. Korea is top and they have similar costing to Canada. It would seem that much of American education (tertiary) is too highly priced. Do you not think that many kids quit learning in secondary because of the unrealistic costs? I would think that many very capable kids are left behind. I know the same things happen here where costs are lower. I believe the kids that are capable and left behind can become a burden on society in other ways not all positive.

If tuition is running $15-20K/year/child how can most reasonable parents ( I had twins and a son in universities at the same time) come close to helping effectively. Add to that books and living expenses and it adds up very fast. Graduating with a yoke of student loans does not leave one much room to maneuver when one is starting out in life. We have went through these arguments on CR4 and most who are established argue against government help. It seems to work in Canada, Korea, Finland, etc where some social help is provided.

My incentive to invest in my kids was a tax deduction, small annual grant, and of course a parent who wants the best for the kids to kick start them. My investment was $2K per year per kid and that I could fortunately afford. These graduated kids are not likely to burden the social system any further and in fact will likely be future positive contributors. All in all I think the state investment for education is only positive. It seems some reeling in of fees is in order if tuition is so high. Student will rise to the challenge eventually because they will have kids to push through an education system. High fees hurt everyone.

I suspect it isn't the cost of education alone, but rather the cursory perceived cost benefits teenagers observe. As teenagers they can not see the immediate benefits upon graduation that justify the cost of the labor, years of poverty through school, and then subsequent career. I might sugges tthat there is a cyclic issue of TV reflecting adults perceptions and valuation filtering down to younger children who then TV adapted for them amplify their altered perceptions and modify their forming valuations. I would almost guarantee more american teenage girls identify and idealize the Kardashians or Snookie from Jersey Shores than Marie Curie. They perceive the huge financial and resource benefits given to thee people without minimal efforts, skill, knowledge or capability, versus someone who spent their life in a lab working on important subject matters but still it gained them minimally financially and required huge amounts of effort, skill, knowledge and talent. If you could earn $100 for acting like an idiot for 5 minutes, or $5 a day for intelligent work, which would you choose. Obviously I am using money as a example, this is really a resources thing since sexual rewards and gifted resources must also be considered.

Alas, You are of course correct. I have only briefly heard of the Jersey Shores and have never seen the show. I only watch Jeopardy and current affairs, the odd sports and movie but no serials or sitcoms. Perceived rewards can be fleeting if it does not involve pain. You know the saying.

If the bar keeps getting lower, academically not financial, then that will hurt everyone. The world really has a love-hate relationship with USA but we really need you to be there for all of us. As you succeed so does the rest of the world economies. I am currently reading a book "Why the West Rules...For Now" by Ian Morris. Ian Morris explore the level of knowledge and social development that has been shifting throughout history. The west and east have changed positions several times for long periods of time. An interesting read but very heavy in history for long periods starting way back to man's initial venture with tools. The west is in a leading position but that position can shift. It will take an effort to stimulate today's youth. But our governments need to do whatever it takes.

If the kids keep dumbing down and expecting something to be handed out for nothing, they will be made rudely aware as they start to run our societies. Imagine more dumbed-down leaders than we already witness in the system (not just USA). Maybe Hollywood can help the image of science and the need for an education.

Variations of this issue seem to crop up every ten years or so. The bottom line: is it worth the cost and effort to earn a B.S. degree, or is it better just to join the work force straight out of high school? The answer depends upon your own abilities, interests and work ethics.

First, the notion that "get a college degree and you'll get a great job and make good money" has always been silly. It implies that only the minimal effort needed to obtain any degree will be richly rewarded. Many lazy people fall into that trap. Like anything else in life, you only get out a proportion of what you put in. Part of our current economic recession is due to too many slackers trying to be overpaid for their minimal efforts.

Second, too few people do their homework before signing up for college. They don't figure out what they'd like to do, what the realistic job market and salary levels are for those jobs, and what people who already hold those jobs really do all day. They don't check that the college actually has the resources to train them to become the best in their field. Then they are shocked when their preconceptions don't pan out. It's really tough for kids to do this homework, but many parents are not helping. There is no excuse for adults to skip this homework before deciding to go to school for a first or new degree.

Higher education is like any other business in that it needs to keep dollars flowing in. It will continue to offer oddball and impractical degrees as long as it can sucker people into buying them. It's the buyer's fault for becoming prey.

Is higher education worth the investment? Only if the work that you truly want to do requires that degree, only if you are willing to put in the effort to graduate near the top of your class, and only if you accept that there will be lean years while you establish your career.

Do some degrees retain more value than others? Definitely, if you can believe the job advertisements or the pundits who claim that we need more people who can do this or lead us to do that. But don't forget that society's values keep changing, so what's valuable today might become worthless tomorrow. When you've earned that B.S. degree you're not done studying yet -- not by a long shot.

Let the buyer beware? Certainly. This is a major life-changing investment. If you approach it like a day trader then you'll probably go down in flames. This decision is one you need to approach carefully and wisely, and then accept responsibility for the outcome.