Do-it-Yourself Solar

My first thought is it is "...a series of accidents waiting to happen."

But there are many dangerous things that are available to anyone who has the money. One that comes to mind is a Husqvarna 395XP Chainsaw. This tool is 93.6CC, 17.4 pounds and 7.1 HP of ear-splitting, smelly, snaggle-toothed monster that is equally happy removing 6 foot diameter trees from the forest or your legs from your torso. This screaming, smoke-belching handful of hell can be had by anybody with a room temperature IQ (farenheit) and enough money. Not a good combination.

Some people like to do it themselves, and have a common sense approach to their expectations of results as well as their own abilities. There are others who like to do it themselves, but should limit their DIY projects to switch cover replacement. I am hoping that fewer of the latter DIY'er decide to tackle a grid-tie system. That just has 'Bad Idea' written all over it.

anybody who has any experience with cutting down trees realize the difficulty of a chainsaw that size... ^{(not for everyone)} ......the up side, anyone without any experience will bust a nut first by just taking it out in the woods.

Well, people kill themselves jacking up their car. Do we have to ban Autozone, too?

but a margin of $7000 for a job requiring 24 labour hours is not justified.

And there my friend is the problem. Going Green just went up 78%+.

Gold $1505.00/Oz Solar panels $725.00/Watt.

Oh you want in inverter with that? Let me speak to my manager, OK, an violate will be $1425.49 + tax, but, we also have a deal with the State and they will give you X tax break if you also purchase the system that connects you day time system so the Utility can use it when you are not and you can get a break on your monthly charge from them, as long as you do not violate their 10KW/Year allotment.

If you do violate this agreement and put more than 10KW on their lines, you will be charged a penalty of $.005/KW of power applied to the Utility lines above that limit.

Where does anyone win?? (This is only in effect in my area, not all others are covered in this unless you have Central Hudson Gas and Electric) Probably to be bought by some other foreign company in the future.

Solar here in Canada is about 8-12 dollars a watt installed, 10Kw system installed about $80k. $700+ a watt in NY is absolutely out of hand.

The real danger is the danger to the system - the system of Inspectors, so-called Masters and Journeymen, and the bureaucracy.

Of course you have to do it right, but if "the government" were watching, they would recognize that every other house on every block has had unlicensed, un-inspected work - electrical, carpentry, plumbing, or HVAC - and they are not burning done.

Now, in these times of lean government tax revenue, we should be communicating with our elected leaders to act in diminishing the close contractor-inspector relationship, and I do mean union, that is driving the cost of construction toward $200. per square foot.

I think of myself to be electrical and tech savy, but I also think that there's a lot of DIYer's out there that are NOT prepared to actually install a PV solar system on their house, backyard or what have you without either frying themselves, burning down the house etc etc etc. Let's face it, a lot of peeps don't have any freaking common sense, the expertise, nor do they know electrical codes! Just enough info in their gray matter to kill themselves, especially when it comes to tie-in to the main panel box and the grid-tie!

Frankly, I don't like dicking around with anything electrical where I can fry my bod....my motto being "if I can't see it I don't trust it!" PERIOD!!! Doesn't mean I don't know the NEC or the NYS Building Code and am capable of building multi-cell PV panels all by my lonesome. I can actually, and have built serveral stand alone panels to juice up my attic exhaust fans and security lights/motion detectors. Unfortunately, most peeps haven't a blasted clue what they're getting into!!! DANGEROUS!!!

If anything, the DIYer installing any electrical device, and this includes solar PV systems, should have a licensed Electrician check over the fundemental installation....also, the same electrician should make the final connections to the main panel box and the new reverse meter for the grid-tie.

Many electric power companies/suppliers won't allow you to make the grid tie by yourself....they must supply and install the new reverse meter and then inspect your installation, or have an independently state licensed electrician from an inspection agency inspect and then sign-off that the installation is acceptable, safe and conforms to the standards of the power company having jurisdiction. They also want the local code enforcement officer to inspect and sign-off as well, resulting in issuing a CO.

Additionally, many US states that offer rebates and other monetary offers now require that a licensed solar PV installer do that actual installation...so if you install it yourself then you're SOL and get no state funding, nor the Federal, state and local tax credits and real estate tax credits that go along with the state's deal...PERIOD!!!! Unfortunately, many DIYer's fail to realise this fact before it's too late....spent the BIG $$$$ to buy the system kits and then installed it, only to find out that they cannot qualify for the state's funding, rebates and tax incentives! DUMBASSES!!!!!!!

A little over a year ago we had a NYS licensed PV solar installer complete the install of our roof-top system.....36 PV panels (210W, 24 VDC each) worth 7.56kW. Well worth it even considering the installation cost! Yeah, I'd like to see the cost come down, but I'm realistic to know that it won't happen in my lifetime given the political climate in both Washington DC and our state capital, Albany!You'd need a clean slate as far as the politicals go to get any sensible changes done regarding the log-jam of providing cheap Solar PV power in this state (or the entire country for that matter). The Germans have done it, but we can't for some God-awful reason???!!! Personally, I put ull blame on the politicians of all parties, the damn lawyers and finally the PACs!!!!! BUNCH OF A-HOLES IF YOU ASK ME WHO HAVE RUINED THIS GREAT COUNTRY!!!!!

In the end, I'm glad that I had a solar PV installer do the work, even if his services were costly. But after what I saw what he an his crew went through installing the system I was extremely glad that he had done so, especially regarding the actual tie-down/support equipment (that won't force leaks in my brand new roof!), the conduit and wire runs, the 2 inverters, 2 meters, the data logging equipment and the final electrical tie-ins. It took this guy and his crew 2+ entire days to complete the installation. For me to do it would have taken weeks!

My system cost me a total of $66k, but after Federal and NYS state tax breaks + the NYSERDA rebate we are only financing the system for slightly more than $17k over a 8 year period in the form of monthly rent ($138/month) paid to the installer company....and I can accelerate those monthly payments if I want to...at the end of the payment/rent period we have a small ballon payment that most likely will be zero'ed out due to salvage costs and new solar PV technical advances that have occurred since the initial installtion......also, I don't have to do any maintenance work or repairs to the system during the entire 8 years as the installer owns the equipment in the interim period. Afterwards, I owned the sytem....warranty is 25 years on the PV panels and the wiring.....10 years on the inverters.

Last August during a most nasty and long heat wave (hottest on record here) we only had to pay the power company $37 for that month!!!!! Ditto for Sept. of 2010!!!! Most of that was to cover the month connection charges and taxes, not any electrical draw from the grid!

BTW, we were the first houshold in the Village to install solar PV system....what a hoot! Now others have seen our system and done the same....a small amount, but growing numbers I'm happy to say! I feel like a tour guide showing off or talking about the system to our subdivision neighbors! hyehehehhehe

LOVE IT SEEING THE METER ROTATING BACKWARDS AND CREDITING ME FOR MY EXCESS ELECTRICAL PRODUCTION!!!!

NOW IF ONLY SOME OF MY FREAKING NEIGHBORS WILL THANK ME FOR PROVIDING THEM CHEAPER ELECTRICAL POWER (ie, I'm subsidizing the cost of their grid power)!!! GO FIGURE!!!?????

LET IT SHINE BABY!!!!!

I hope your meter is still not running backwards as they do not work correctly in this mode. You should have a digital type of meter.

Hey there Garth! Howzit going down there in Oz? I hope that all of the flooding has ended finally? Hope that you were not effected whatsoever.

Anyhoots, I do believe that the "reverse meter" is in fact a digital one. It's been since winter that I have even glanced at it! LOL The power company swapped-out the old standard analog meter just before the PV Contractor came in and did his work.

How about a picture of the Capt Moosie Tour?

Hey Tigger, how's Pooh? LOL Just kidding! Sure, I can provide some "tour" pics! **GRINZ**

If I manage to get outside today, I'll snap some digital pics of the rooftop PV panels...then some pics of the the inverters. With hope I can upload the pics to this site later today (I have a Contractor meeting early this afternoon which may eat up some valued time).

I commend you on adding PV Solar to your home. Its a good idea and would get even more so if others would do the same and if the governments would stop bending over for the utility providers ahd provide more incentives to the everyday homeowner.

On another note, if you ever upgrade or offer advise to your friends, have them research the enphase type inverters rather than the string inverters you have. enphase inverters provide more total output than string type invterters.

Sorry but you are repeating false stories. In some cases where partial shading is a problem the microinverters (Enphase or other brand) may provide more output. Normally they do not unless you are reading and believing advertising.

A stand alone inverter is cheaper - in every case.

With the microinverters you have one electronic package per panel on the roof where it is difficult to replace.

Enphase just upgraded their line - the wonderful inverters you are talking about are being dumped. The product line was so great they dumped it.

Enphase has a lot of mumbo jumbo about MTBF they spout - all calculated. I have never read of them doing any accelerated testing to prove their point.

More incentives? Everyone has their hand out for money the government is borrowing. The entire rebate/incentive scheme is an expensive kiss to the backsides of the greens. It is giving money to people that already have more than most - meaning the ones that can afford the expenditure for a PV system.

The PV leasing companies are raping the treasury and every American with the rebate/incentive/REC thing.

At the end of the day the solar fraction for even Germany amounts to nothing in the overall electric supply.

Great response, Russ, I included a link from the Cato Instutute (a public Policy Research Organization). that supports that.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-280.html

Good link - a bit radical on a few points but generally correct.

Wind turbine bird kills - the old high speed turbines were very problematic. The newer generation that rotate slowly should not be a problem - it would take a real dumb and unlucky bird to get hit.

One thing, the technolgy has been around, IMO, its still in its infancy.

There are of what I call factions, that are in to this so called energy farms. but the only thing they really farm is the government and its subsidies and grants.

Solar grant farms

Wind turbine grant farms

Geothermal grant farms

Tide power grant farms

Ethanol subsidy farms

Poor turnip farmer (the general public) just gets to pay more taxes and more for energy.

The Missing Link

$4 per watt

This is a good fundamental question.
The UK is swamped with regulations which mean that I shouldn't install my own gas central heating or re-wire my garage. Or even intall a power shower without approval from the local water company!!! (not many people are aware of that one).
I'm sure you can guess how much attention I pay to such nonsense, although Mrs Cat made me get a gas guy in to check over the boiler. However to be fair I did have a bit of trouble sealing the flue to the boiler.
One problem is that the 'professionals' don't necessarilly do it right, and they charge a fortune too.
I don't know what the answer is. I think anyone should be allowed to install, but maybe it should be tested/checked and signed off by a 'competent authority'.
UK legislation uses such words but then spoils it by defining the only aproved 'competent authorities'.
Another problem is that grants and subsidies are only obtainable if you use the 'aproved installer' thus if you DIY you don't get the grant, and of course we all know the grants just get added (rather than subtracted) to the bottom line
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Del

Well said Del! It's absolute nonsense now in the UK.

I decided to repair my roof, replacing new for old, like for like - along come
the planning 'Hitlers' "Have you got building permission to do that?"

Fill in all these forms in triplicate and pay us £100 +vat.

To REPAIR my roof! Gee! I'm 72, pay for everything myself, do not claim any grants,
social hand-outs, etc, (like many do) and they wanted £115 for building permissions!

The sooner they sack all these people who feed off honest initiative the better. (imo)

Sorry for the rant, but you are right - "swamped with regulations." Please leave us alone.

jt.

Damn right we have hoards of these wrist slappers in Australia all sucking on the public teat. It is no wonder our taxes keep going up.

In a lot of cases they have a very poor intelligence quota and have less knowledge than the person who is applying his or herself to the job in hand. In the very short futer they will wonder why they have lost there jobs as there is no industry left making profits and paying taxes, trouble is they will have taken a lot of well meaning workers with them.

I think there is no doubt that most people are incapable of installing a grid-tied system, that most laymen do not possess the knowledge of building and electrical codes, and just may get electrocuted somewhere along the way of building their own.

Well, you could say that is their problem. The Thevenin equivalent infinite current source, the grid in this case, will be OK, perhaps not including the nearby transformer.

However, that being said, there is installing, say, a water heater vent pipe correctly, and installing it OK in the eyes of the corrupt building official backed up by a body of laws created to protect the lard-butted tradesman.

Imagine a enthusiastic and technically competent and creative person who reads profusely, asks questions, considers details carefully. This person wants to contribute to the renewable energy industry, but all he lacks is the union stamp.

I think this is a fine time in history to call upon our elected representatives to redesign construction oversight to serve citizens, not tradesman, their unions, and the first born generation of those tradesman.

[quote]Of course you have to do it right, but if "the government" were watching, they would recognize that every other house on every block has had unlicensed, un-inspected work - electrical, carpentry, plumbing, or HVAC - and they are not burning done(sic).[end quote]

There are several issues with the above quote and this reply is intended to dispute the subject matter and not to flame the quote originator.

I have 26 years experience with both heavy industrial and residential construction, site utilities, machinery and appliances. In that time I have seen as much shoddy and dangerous work produced by those who were "licensed" as those who were not ... and let's not isolate the appliance manufacturers who produce and are allowed to sell items that effectively render the NEC worthless because they are improperly wired. Oh, they're out there by the tens/hundreds of thousands yet no one seems to be concerned in least (likely because there's no tax to collect like there is with an alleged "license"). Anyone that thinks a "license" makes the installer "qualified" or "knowledgeable" is sadly mistaken because the only thing the license proves is that the tax was paid.

I don't take any issue with materials being sold anywhere, the market is consumer-driven and if the consumer wants to take the risk of buying some unknown junk from a bog box store only to find out later that it was a partial/total waste, so be it. Buying solar panels at the big box store is no different than buying a genset, welder, hot water heater or what have you at the big box store - the personal safety and property damage potential exists no matter what. Despite the blissful utopian thoughts to the contrary, one cannot legislate consumer ignorance nor professional workmanship. If the consumer doesn't know what they're doing then they need to accept the personal responsibility for their choices. Like everything else, it all boils down to, "Pay me now or pay me a whole lot more later."

I'm a bit late on this one but - a grid tie system fully installed with all paper work taken care of should cost in the range of 5 to 5.50$ per DC watt. If local unions are involved that would most likely go up.

The deals from Costco/sBay/Amazon etc are not great to begin with - much better to go to one of the large specialty places - North Arizona Wind & Sun for example. Panels are available from 1.75$ per DC watt on up. Racking is expensive as well.

Shipping is costly so you want a retailer near you. That way you have some backup - something you can forget about from Costco or Amazon.

DIY solar - many want to build their own panels - problems include difficulty in sealing the panel (very difficult) and lack of UL approval meaning no grid connect and they most likely invalidate homeowners insurance - if your house happened to burn down it is tough luck.

The individual PV cells available on eBay - 99% chance they are rejects - sold as scrap by the factory.