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A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

Posted June 19, 2013 2:38 PM by HUSH
Pathfinder Tags: NSA off the grid surveillance

One of the biggest news stories to break over the past week has been the revelation that the U.S. government has been accessing the phone and email records of its citizens in the name of counterterrorism. Since 2001, the National Security Agency has been extra-legally (but not exactly illegally) monitoring constituents' telecommunications as a means of protecting them from another horrific terrorist attack. I'll point out the obvious, that as of this writing several large terrorist plots have been thwarted, while smaller ones have gone unabated. It's also been revealed that the United States is far from alone in this practice.

Since this is CR4 however, that's about as far as I'll take the political rhetoric. In no shape am I prepared to offer you my opinion on the policies of my government, no matter how George Orwell-ian they seem.

The U.S. has made it no secret that it intends to levy criminal - and possibly martial - charges against Edward Snowden. Snowden was employed as a systems administrator at an NSA facility in Hawaii before fleeing to Hong Kong in May so he could disclose his classified knowledge. He chose Hong Kong because, despite its extradition treaty with the U.S., it has a very liberal freedom of press policy and a slow-moving extradition process which would involve the Chinese. Snowden has stated he will seek asylum in Iceland but stay in Hong Kong until no longer welcome. As such, he has gone into hiding, thereby setting up a very Jason Bourne-like manhunt where he must rely on his acumen to stay one step ahead of his pursuers.

But how do you hide your electronic fingerprints, and then your physical fingerprints, from the most powerful and technologically advanced spying agencies in the world? Here is a beginner's list to 'getting off the grid.'

  1. Go cell phone anonymous. If you insist on retaining your current phone, remove the battery when it's not in use so your movement cannot be triangulated. Otherwise, buy a no-contract cell phone from a store without closed circuit surveillance. These 'burner phones' are typically cheap, so it's best to dispose of them after just a few days.
  2. Get e-smart. Apple has stated that in a period of six months it receives about 4,500 NSA requests, while Facebook received 10,000 and Microsoft 6,000 within the same time period. If you use a commercial email like Outlook, Gmail or Yahoo!, then you should check the security settings to see if you can encrypt your messages. This will translate your messages into ciphertext, which remains unreadable once intercepted. If email encryption isn't available, don't use it, or instead pay for an encryptable email such as Hushmail. Web browsers Chrome and Firefox offer an add-on called HTTPS Everywhere, which will encrypt your connection to nearly every website. Web browsers expose similar weaknesses as email, and encrypting your connection to websites is typically very easy. In the website address, try switching "http" to "https" to provide a secure connection.
  3. Disappear quietly. When you disappear, it shouldn't be as a surprise to anyone. Don't fake a kidnapping or anything else. In the same vein, don't falsify documents or plans - it will only lead to more attention and speculation.
  4. Get rid of your car. Don't ditch it in the lake because it will be found. Instead, leave it unlocked in a poor neighborhood, possibly with the keys in the cupholder.
  5. Get rid of your friends and family. While not exactly the easiest thing to do, slowly phasing yourself out of the social setting of those closest to you is a must. Even more important: permanently eliminating social network accounts. It's easy for investigators to comb through electronic records, but much more costly to track down hard leads.
  6. Go cash-only. Credit cards create a paper trail, as do ATM cards.
  7. Misinformation is critical. It can still be almost impossible to eliminate important clues as to where you are going or what you're doing. Therefore it can be essential to skew personal records. This can be done by establishing false addresses, purposefully misspelling your name, and tell misleading stories. Providing too much information, if incorrect, is as effective as no information.
  8. Find an off-grid settlement. Whether a transcendental compound or an abandoned wasteland, finding a place to hang your hat is essential. Consider Slab City, Calif., a WWII-era abandoned Marine base where several thousand squatters live without plumbing, local government or mains electricity. There are a variety of reasons to move to Slab City (retirement, idealism, hiding), which is located in the middle of the Colorado Desert. Living in a remote area where you're unlikely to be found is best.
  9. Go alone. Edward Snowden seems to be travelling with his fiancé, but doing so increases his risk of being found dramatically.
  10. Reinvent yourself. Change your hair, your name, your wardrobe, your backstory, your habits. Commit them to memory.


This list may seem frivolous, but consider the most recent manhunts conducted by the U.S. The Boston Marathon bombers were killed and captured. Julian Assange is forced to live in cramped quarters after being granted asylum by the Ecuadorian Embassy located in London. Osama bin Laden, a fugitive for a decade, was eventually killed.

Once again…with feeling, I'm not defending the U.S. government or Edward Snowden. I'm just presenting a very basic list for getting lost in an era where it's nearly impossible, especially when the hunters have an exhaustive list of resources. When you need this list you'll know where to find it; just not me.

Resources

CNN - How to hide your data from Internet snoops

CNET - Apple details U.S. requests...

DPL Surveillance - Dropping Off the Grid...

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#1

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/19/2013 10:47 PM

If you are looking to hide just move to North Dakota. The only population growth we have had in the last 30 - 40 years, not including the oil boom, is the witness protection program dumping every moron they need to get rid of here.

Speaking of witness protection program how does a person go about finding the people that may be looking for them?

Reason being there are a few here that we don't want and the world would be better off if the people worse than them got a heads up on where to find them!

Anyone looking for a tall dumb blue eyed redneck from the Texas or thereabouts that ratted them out to save his own skin around 20 years ago? I know where you can find him!

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#2

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 6:24 AM

Well, there is a far easier way to do this...

Just do what 1% of the US population does and become homeless (although not necessarily by choice).

Becoming homeless has great advantages because:

a. No one wants you around,
b. many places will pay you to leave, and
c. people go out of their way to leave you alone (which is the exact opposite when you are known to have money).

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#3

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 6:35 AM

Unless you're a criminal, there's no reason to hide from anything. As far as this NSA thing goes; there is a big difference between sifting through information, and building profiles on every American citizen.

I believe that 95+% of our government workforce are honest hard working people...unfortunately, we have voted in an administration that is comprised of common criminals, that have no respect for our laws and constitution, and will utilize any tools and departments at their disposal...not to combat terrorism, but to attack political enemies and continue building their own power.

The only thing that makes the NSA story so scary, is that it comes on the heals of Fast & Furious, Benghazi, the intentional use of the IRS to go after people that sought to educate others on the US constitution, and the snooping into the lives and families of a growing number of reporters and news organizations.

Anyway, I keep on posting along, in hopes that they will be seen by the NSA, FBI, or anyone else in government. We have to end this scurge of criminal behavior that is seemingly running rampant...

To borrow a phrase:

If you you see something, say something.

I'm not talking about comprimising national security, and I think most people know the difference. Our government is morphing into an entity that is proving that it can't be trusted by the American people. If it's not stopped now, we're going to run into some very serious problems up the road. We need an equivalent of the internal affairs divisions at police departments.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 11:38 AM

Wow, that is the most sophomoric, moronic reply post I've read this year. But I still have six months to keep reading! Much like the crack dealer who is proud of his work, the conservative movement, represented very well by the Bush Cheney years, just keeps yakking about how proud they are to have customers. Where did you people come from. That is a serious question. What happened to you?

We have known about this NSA program for years, I hated it then, I hate it now. It is a gross violation of the fifth amendment, and Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Apple are complicit. How you can say you are conservative and support this, I don't get it. Maybe you could reflect on the fear that drove the majority of Americans to support interrment of Japanese Americans in WW2. In hindsight, it seems insane. I guess at the time, it seemed like the thing to do.

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#7
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 4:46 PM

Where did I say I supported it?

I didn't like the Patriot act, precisely because I knew that at some point, it would be abused...as we are witnessing.

On the other hand, it would be incredibly naive to think that the government wouldn't, (and shouldn't), use modern technology to thwart terrorist threats. We need very stringent oversight...which is lacking.

You should be happy. We have an administration that is using the tools that were designed to fight terrorism, to attack political enemies; and the new definition of terrorist, includes those that attempt to hold onto constitutional principles.

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 12:19 PM

It's not the 95+% that I'm worried about, it's just the 1% at the top that we need to be concerned with and we don't know who they are.

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#8
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 5:44 PM

Sure we do.

They are in Washington, they are in both parties, and they either directly or indirectly control everything that goes on in this country. We've handed them too much power.

Just that simple.

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#71
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/28/2013 6:20 PM

We certainly do. One of them used 900 raw data FBI files for a bit of night reading to help with her insomnia. She is running for POTUS in 2016. Can you imagine what someone with a reasonable search program could find? Some don't trust one political party, others, the other political party. We should all be able to agree that maintaining these records is a bad idea. Once sifted for prescient terrorist activity, they should be destroyed immediately. Some might even go so far as to state "since none of this has prevented any incident, and they are unable to prevent a 29 yr old HS dropout from accessing it" the entire enterprise should be scrapped.

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#11
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 8:44 PM

Sure the government has the citizens best interests in mind.

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#4

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 8:08 AM

There's at least one cool thing about internet snooping...

I get news on my homepage that caters to the things that I'm interested in. Just got this:

http://news.yahoo.com/head-revived-watchdog-pledges-open-look-u-surveillance-002817517.html;_ylt=AihC.r2_awYChmy3Jp3tjh8JVux_;_ylu=X3oDMTI5YmpkMW84BG1pdANBVFQgMyBTdG9yeSBKdW1ib3Ryb24gSG9tZSBDYWNoZWQEcG9zAzYEc2VjA01lZGlhQXR0V2lkZ2V0cm9uQXNzZW1ibHk-;_ylg=X3oDMTFkcW51ZGliBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaA--;_ylv=3

Glad to see that they have the security clearances; now we just need a way to safeguard them from being threatened and coerced by the executive branch.

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#74
In reply to #4

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

07/01/2013 10:48 AM

Yeah, well...

"The board, established at the recommendation of the 9/11 Commission in 2004, is an independent watchdog that resides within the executive branch..."

and...

President Barack Obama did not nominate his first two choices until December 2010, then a year later put forward three more names.

because...

"The Obama administration...have defended the programs as vital national security tools..."

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#75
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

07/01/2013 3:57 PM

I don't think that anyone that is appointed by the president, whether the president is a republican or a democrat, would be considered to be independent, objective , etc.

Presidents are going to pick people that see things their way; always have, and always will.

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#9

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 7:39 PM

The bottom line is...

Whether this data collection is restricted to US citizens, or part of a much greater UN protocol, there is no way to control millions or billions of people with information alone.

It takes force.

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#10

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/20/2013 8:05 PM

I thought this was about getting off the grid!

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#12
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/21/2013 1:23 AM

Solar Power! Gets you off the grid!

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/21/2013 6:25 AM

Yeah, but not the electrical grid. It's about hiding from "The Man".

All good ideas, but I'd rather get "The Man" to behave himself. After all, we're the ones that are financing all of this abuse.

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#14

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/21/2013 7:52 AM

My recommendation, would be 2 members from the ACLU, 2 members from the CATO institute, and 2 members from the Heritage Foundation; and that they operate completely independently from both the president and congress, with the members being chosen by the organizations themselves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/06/10/never-heard-of-the-privacy-and-civil-liberties-oversight-board-you-should/

My guess at this point...that we find out nothing.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-meet-privacy-oversight-board-try-reassure-public-100155723.html

Lets not forget, the IRS is also "independent". BS!!!

http://www.nationalreview.com/348419/re-irs-scandal

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/21/2013 8:07 AM

This is an interesting companion article that talks about the incredible waste of money.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/351622/prism-costs-lives-robert-zubrin

Good thread HUSH...

BTW- I suspect that the pending, bipartisan amnesty bill, has a lot more to do with having the ability to track these people than anything else. They are the only ones that still have privacy...that needs to change.

When it's all said and done, I don't think we'll be seeing a rush of people stepping forward and turning themselves in. Why would they?

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/21/2013 11:11 AM

Thanks, but the stars of this show are the audience.

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#17
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/21/2013 3:12 PM

Well, it's a topic that I'm keenly interested in.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed that the NSA is teasing around with the idea of changing the way they do things, but not a word about deleting all of the data, (on us), that they have already collected?

I'm assuming that their super computers have delete keys.

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#18

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/22/2013 8:52 AM

Just a final note here.

I've felt it myself... The fear of retaliation from our government for speaking out against something they are doing.

That feeling should not exist in the United States of America. I don't see being quiet as a viable option; history has taught us otherwise.

If we don't stop this, nobody else on the planet is going to come to our defense.

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#19

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/23/2013 10:41 AM

Watching Meet the Press this morning. It looks like it's the democrats that are looking out for our right to privacy.

Dick Durban (D) just admitted that bulk data collection, (on us), has been going on for years, and that he's tried to stop it. Up to 5 years of collected data on American citizens, as in every communication. Wow!

Tom Cobern (R) is still telling the same old lies that it isn't happening. Regardless of what we think of Snowden, we know for a fact that Cobern is lying through his teeth; which is a shame. I liked him.

How can he say that nothing is being collected, as these massive storage facilities are being built around the country? Does he think we are stupid?

I would like to see a sampling of the collected data, with names and social security numbers removed, and the American people should be the judge on whether or not they are overreaching.

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#20
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/23/2013 2:13 PM

"How can he say that nothing is being collected, as these massive storage facilities are being built around the country?"

They are the new CR4 servers!

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#21
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/23/2013 3:22 PM

Yeah. That must be it.

It was surprising to see two democrats saying that this collection should stop, while the republicans were still denying that it was happening.

There is absolutely no good reason for them to be collecting and storing information on us, that doesn't tie into terrorist threats.

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#22
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 11:54 AM

I agree with most of your observations....

I have some insight into this since I have worked for an intelligence-gathering government-run organization for over twenty-six years. We are called the U.S. Navy.

yet...I feel that this is akin to saying that the police should stop patrolling, stop talking to informants (citizens and the press), and never look back through past information in order to investigate a "current" crime.

It seems as if the public has more faith and trust in what the talking heads on the television are spouting that what their own representatives are doing to run this country.

I do not feel comfortable in letting the Julian Assanges of this world run anything except their mouths.

If Snowden were really that concerned about what his country was doing to its citizens, he would have taken up the fight in his own country. By fleeing to countries which are not friendly to the U.S. he has lifted the veil on his true agenda...bringing the U.S. down to the same playing field as those other countries. He is just a spy, plain and simple.

Isn't that what this is all about...the dislike of spying? Then why is it okay for Snowden to flee to other countries with U.S. Citizens' data? Now those countries will have our data, too.

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#24
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 4:44 PM

I don't know if Snowden has given anything to foreign countries. If he has data on regular US citizens, I would like to know why it was collected in the first place. I have a genuine fear that is not people that are connected to terrorism, but people that are connected to the conservative movement; which has now become synonymous with terrorists.

If there's any section of the US government that I still trust, it's our 4 branches of military. I do not believe that the military would do anything to US citizens that is in direct contrast to the constitution. Too much blood has been spilled protecting those freedoms.

I don't trust any of our politicians.

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#25
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 5:05 PM

Comment deleted. This was not intended to respond to you, but CubaPete. Sorry.

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#26
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 5:07 PM

Come on.

First, no one is saying that the government and its agencies must be deaf, dumb, and blind.

All we want is our civil rights protected as laid out in the US Constitution.

Second, the whole idea that we need 1984 snooping powers to keep us safe is way, way blown out of proportion.

I have no doubt that the US government has thwarted some threats and we do know that some threats have been carried out against us (here and abroad).

However, more Americans have died from lighting strikes in the last 50 years than the last 50 years from terrorism. Put another way, more civilians accidentally drown in one year than from 50 years of terrorism.

The US spends about 1/2 Trillion Dollars every year to fight terrorism (includes Homeland Security, portion of Defense budgets, local and national law enforcement, etc.). That's a lot of dollars just for risk management.

Why is it we are so frightened of dying from the hands of some madman as to spend $500,000,000,000.00 per year to "protect" us, yet never give a thought that we are 50 times more likely to die as a pedestrian struck by a car?

So, people are happily willing to surrender their liberties, rights, and tax dollars just for the "feeling" of being safe from a threat that is 500 times less likely than perishing in their own car. Keep in mind all those dollars do not actually insure our safety, just reduces the risk.

The real problem is the vast majority of Americans have lost all perspective and live their lives ruled by the false specter of fear.

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 6:44 PM

It sure seems that way. Every time an implication that the gov't is "spying" on its own citizens is revealed in "the media" a hailstorm of self-righteous indignation spews forth.

What about all of the data that the media is collecting on private citizens? Are they charged with keeping this country safe? Are they charged with using the information they gather to put forth policy used to deploy military personnel around the world...again...to keep this country safe?

(It's not the media's job, but they will do their damndest to get involved in something which they have to rely on leaks and spys to reveal information to them.)

The answer is no...that is the job of the gov't. That's what we pay them for.

The gov't which is hamstrung by these seemingly minor incidents, over and over again. Then the gov't feels the need to one-up the competition. If you went all-in on the last hand of poker would you show your hand to each of your competitors and still hope that you would win? Problem is, the stakes are much higher.

The portion of Congress which is responsible for these programs (by the full Congress) know what is going on. They approved these programs in whole or in part.

You can personally reduce your risk of being struck by lightning, being part of a pedestrian accident, or even dying from an infection from a tuna can. Unless you are James Bond (with the support of your gov't) you cannot personally defend yourself from a terrorist attack...

You may be surprised to find that this "false specter of fear" lives among us every day. It's a real threat.

Move to a country where your gov't doesn't do a damn thing for you and see how long you last. Might I suggest Sudan, Syria, Yemen, or Iran?

This is a very simple, low-level conversation here...very facile in its representations. The real action and language takes place behind closed doors in D.C. Those hearings will be classified. The reports will be classified.

Until some knucklehead leaks what they want to the press. Not the whole truth, just what "they" want people to believe.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 9:17 PM

Why do You think that the American Government gives a damn, all i see is that they try anything to keep their little system going.

What threat? terrorist attacks had been going on outside USA before 9-11, but there wasn't the kind of threat panic going on, I grew up in Europe, with IRA, RAF, ETA,Action Directe etcetera. But no European Government freaked out and started all these laws that encroach on Civil rights.

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#32
In reply to #29

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 11:08 AM

Because I have worked for the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT for the last 26 years. I know. The taxpayers pay me to make sure that the only thing in America are threats.

Does anybody even READ what Congress does on a daily basis? Can they put two and two together and comprehend what this country is enduring? Is all that anybody listens to are one-sided conversations from the talking heads on television, congratulating themselves for outing national security systems to threat nations?

And...Europe has suffered from more incidents of 'terrorist' attack than America has. Ever wonder why?

Considering that all of Europe could fit into the States several times over, we have a much different type of threat to deal with. Hell, Great Britain is only the size of flipping Oregon!

Obviously there are bad guys out there who want to hurt us.

If you really don't like our little system, move back to Europe, by all means.

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 1:00 PM

You wrote, "Because I have worked for the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT for the last 26 years. I know."

What is it you know? Are we under siege as we write? Can you cite data that supports your argument?

You wrote, "Can they put two and two together and comprehend what this country is enduring?"

Again, this makes it sound like an imminent invasion at our shores by commandos. Yet after 9-11 we have only had a few actions by lone-wolf actors and most of those attacks that are publicized have failed due to poor or amateur execution.

The amateur nature of these lone-wolf actions punctuates the fact that al Qaeda is no longer able to coordinate attacks inside US soil. The best tool al Qaeda has is Inspire Magazine and the 10th issue of that is also very telling about the effectiveness of that propaganda magazine. Since the death of the original editor Samir Khan the magazine has lost its cynical edge and appeal.

The principle tool used by law enforcement to apprehend these actors have been people talking to the authorities when they see or hear things. In most cases these actors must solicit help with resources or information to carry out their plans. This is where the actors are detected, when someone who is contacted by one of these lone-wolves passes this information onto law enforcement.

This kind of counter-terrorism is the oldest and simplest method and is extremely effective. It does not require comprehensive spying on every citizen, just alert citizens willing to pass on information.

You wrote, "And...Europe has suffered from more incidents of 'terrorist' attack than America has. Ever wonder why?"

I know why and it has virtually nothing to do with not recording every facet of data that transpires by landlines, air, and mail. The issue has to do with the geopolitics of the region, immigration from the Middle East, Africa, and Asia, cultural assimilation (or lack thereof), and economic conditions.

You do not need to be a CIA analyst nor a Western History professor to understand that Europe has had a long, long history of violence, conquest, and terrorism since Cro-Magnon man first set foot on the continent. Nothing new here.

All of the above conditions are not the same for the US. First, we are not the primary immigration stop for those that hail from the Middle East, Africa, or Asia. Additionally, those that do immigrate to Europe face a much different pathway to integration into the local cultures than they do in the US. Lastly, our economic situation is much better than Europe.

So, the argument that what happens in Europe versus what does not happen in the US is due to Prism or any other comprehensive data mining program by the government is not valid because the two continents experience significantly different challenges with security.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 2:55 PM

There is always some threat, somewhere. Think of why we have police officers on patrol....because of the threat of danger.

Fitting for this occasion, from Men In Black:

"There's always an alien battle cruiser or a Korilian death ray or intergalactic plague that's about to wipe out life on this miserable little planet. The only way these people get on with their happy lives is they do not know about it."

Unless Edward Snowden lets the cat out of the bag and shows his hand to all of the other players at the table. Problem there is that he wasn't gambling with his own money.

People, all people, need to wean themselves from the teat of the popular media. Get your information from the source or at least pay attention to all of the information presented...draw your own conclusions. Think about what you learned in school or in college. Do you remember what your teachers told you about making decisions based on all of the facts?

Media people are in it for fame and fortune...they get paid for saying whatever they say in front of cameras, on the internet, whatever. Hell, the best of the best gets a (Pulitzer) Prize if they are good enough! Entertainment sells!

Divulging classified information to the public is exactly what got Edward Snowden in trouble. He swore an oath, just like everyone else. He signed a non-disclosure agreement, just like everyone else. He had access to proper channels and methods for dealing with situations he thought were wrong, but he chose to not follow any one of them...not one.

If the gov't was as bad-ass as the popular media wants us to believe with monitoring, drones, assassins, etc...don't you think Snowden would have been erased long before he had done a thing, or soon thereafter? Isn't that what happens in the movies?

Exactly.

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 3:26 PM

You wrote, "There is always some threat, somewhere. Think of why we have police officers on patrol....because of the threat of danger."

While true on the surface, it does not argue to your point. We could have a total police state and take every right from every citizen in the name of safety - total control with a tyrant spelling out exactly what you can and can't do. With total surveillance that is not only possible, but enforceable.

To claim that total surveillance is required for a threat that simply isn't that large in magnitude is a fraud. None of your claims speaks to why we need such excessive force to maintain security. As I pointed out again and again, the terror threat simply is not that significant and relatively easily contained using ordinary security measures.

THis does not mean we will be absolutely safe, but no security, short of a total police state could come close to guaranteeing that - and not even then would it be 100%.

You wrote, "Unless Edward Snowden lets the cat out of the bag..."

No one knows what he really knows and is willing to divulge. I do not even thing that the NSA, FBI, or CIA have that knowledge. So you are purely speculating at this point.

You wrote, "Think about what you learned in school or in college. Do you remember what your teachers told you about making decisions based on all of the facts?"

Excellent point! I agree 100%.

You wrote, "Media people are in it for fame and fortune..."

Actually, it is money, just like the corporations that hire them.

You wrote, "He [Edward Snowden] had access to proper channels and methods for dealing with situations he thought were wrong, but he chose to not follow any one of them...not one."

True. I think he either made a very large mistake or has other motives for his disclosure. It is hard to say at this time. However, Snowden's disclosures really are a straw man in this argument. It is not relevant what he did or did not do. The argument is about whether the US government is applying too much force with their surveillance of private US citizens.

Everything Snowden has revealed to date was already known and broadcast by the media years ago anyway. Snowden is really irrelevant to this discussion.

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 5:14 PM

I heard today that Snowden had no security clearance.

If that's true, it appears that, not only is our government collecting and filing all of our private information without our permission, but anyone that has a government job can simply take it. What an embarrassment...which is probably why they want him so badly.

I still haven't heard how collecting and filing information on millions of Americans, thwarts terrorism; particularly in light of the amnesty bill that's about to be approved, in which we will have 12 million plus new legal residents, and nobody knows who or where they are. They won't be coming forward...I'm sure of it. They will become the only ones that are assured privacy in this country, and Eric Holder is willing to sue anyone that tries to change that.

Obviously, the best way to neutralize terrorist threats in this country, is to throw away the constitution and put us in lockdown. I'm willing to take my chances with terrorists, and retain my rights.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 5:33 PM

Oh, you heard that, did you? From which reputable source. Are you even sure that Edward Snowden actually exists...as in...he is a real person from Hawai'i?

Am I real? Are you?

Willing to what?

HA HA....Whoo Hoo!!!

That's a good one...wait...I thought we were already living in a surveillance state...sooooo...you already are taking your chances with terrorists...right?

I can think of one citizen who thought the same thing once...I think his name was Daniel Pearl. But Bush probably faked that whole thing, right?

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#39
In reply to #37

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 5:39 PM

No verification. I heard it; I won't state it as fact unless I know it's true.

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#40
In reply to #36

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 9:53 PM

I don't usually share my personal opinion on these topics, but I just gotta. You would rather take yor chances with terrorists? You are one sick bastard.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 10:27 PM

Wait. Kramarat said he would rather keep his civil rights and take his chances with terrorism.

I don't see that as sick.

However, for the record, where do you stand on the issue? Do you feel that it is better to trade liberty for safety or did you mean something else?

Why or why not?

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#46
In reply to #41

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 9:26 AM

Yes I will trade liberty for safety. Ask the people in Afghanistan how trading liberty for terrorism worked out for them.

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#57
In reply to #46

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 3:53 PM

Well, most of us want something between anarchy and tyranny. I would not opt for your flavor of heaven.

As for Afghanistan, I am not sure if I understand what you meant. Are you aware of Afghanistan's history (at least back before the last 10 years of television news)?

That country has been one of the most bloodiest and tyrannical countries on the face of the Earth.

Around 500 BC were the Nomadic Invasions...
Darius the Great ruled, then the Persian Empire swept in and tribal wars ensued.

330 BC Alexander the Great crushed the country, but was plagued by constant revolts.
Greeks ruled, Kushan ruled, then fragmented into multiple dynasties.
Islam entered in the mid 7th century.
Ghaznavid Empire rules, then crumbles in the 11th century.
13th Century Genghis Khan sweeps through and the Mogul Empire rises.
Nadir Sha invades Afghanistan in the 1700s and is ultimately assassinated.
Constant tribal fighting follows, then full civil war follows for 7 years.
Next follows more wars until the early 1800s.
British intervene, then are ousted in 1843.

Russia intervenes and sets new territorial borders with Afghanistan.
British return, then ousted again in 1921.
1994 the Taliban sweep through with one of the most brutal regimes ever seen. The list of atrocities is much too long to go into here.
George Bush invades and routes the Taliban.
Obama sets the stage to get out of "Dodge" and negotiates with the Taliban so they can return.

Afghanistan has never really known freedom and clearly not under the Taliban. I just don't know how Afghanistan's history supports your position in any way or form. If anything it should lead to the opposite deduction.

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 4:40 PM

There's no shortage of supposed recipes for a free people. The best one was written right here. We just need to stick to it.

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#59
In reply to #57

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 3:25 PM

You know what (you probably do)...

Most people don't need a history lesson, but you need some reading lessons. I was speaking of Afghanistan's recent history within the last 40 years. Terrorism is how they are ruled now. How did you swap that in your head? Are you dyslexic?

I suggest The Kite Runner as a nice and easy read...it's on the CNO's reading list.

Please...don't feel the need to try and educate everyone around you every time you speak (so to speak). Cutting and pasting of wiki's on CR4 gets real old, real fast.

My "flavor of heaven" was learned in the US military. We raised our right hands and swore to support and defend the Constitution, and traded a little of our own liberty in the process.

Sorry to push that on the common citizen...please feel free to defend yourself.

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#60
In reply to #59

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 3:50 PM

What?!!!

I was in the Navy too; and liberty was what we called being able to leave the ship for a short period of time, while in port. Otherwise, it was a totalitarian dictatorship.

It's something I volunteered to do, and I gave up my constitutional rights in exchange for the UCMJ. A different set of rules than what everyone else lives by.

People in the military, (at least used to), do it to insure that the rest of our country is safe from outside enemies, and gets to enjoy their constitutionally guaranteed freedom and liberty, unheeded.

That's just a really bad argument to justify the government breaking an individual's entire population's right to privacy.

What's the point in a constitution if we're going to allow the government to dismantle it? We might as well just live like any other third world country.

As far as Afghanistan goes, you should talk to some of your fellow military personnel about the recruiting techniques used by the taliban; it's not free donuts and coffee.

Pulling out of there is going to be a disaster. The people that have learned to trust us, will never give us another chance.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 5:34 PM

You guys are just re-stating some of my comments.

anywho...

I know personally what the Taliban is capable of and more than aware of their recruitment techniques. Most of my friends (and people I talk to, military or not) are the ones with blinders on.

Pulling out of a country after these types of "wars" is usually a disaster.

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 6:58 PM

I was a little taken aback with your comment about losing a little liberty in the military, and expecting civilians to do the same. Military personnel suspend their constitional rights in order to protect the rights of the citizens. We mustn't allow that to change.

As far as I'm concerned, the constitution should come first in the military, as far as the US population is concerned. That would include taking out any administration that decided that the constitution was finished; or following orders that stripped people of their constitutional rights.

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#64
In reply to #62

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 7:35 PM

I don't really expect the civilian population to do anything. They just do what they do, react the way they react. The bar for most behavior is set so low nowadays that James Cameron would need the world's deepest diving submarine to find it.

Having served in the Navy I assume you are familiar with the expression that the only happy sailor is a complaining sailor.

At least they can complain.

Here is one observation that I made a while back on another similar topic: Why do Americans expect to have full freedom to do anything? Just because the Constitution "says so"? If it were that easy, we wouldn't need 535 legislative members and 1,769 judicial members trying to figure out what It says on a daily basis.

Where in the constitution does it implicity state that when a person pays a commercial entity for the service of providing communications that they must have complete freedom and privacy? Hint: it doesn't

Hell, End User Agreements restrict what you can and can't do for just about any app/ program, service, etc. and we just clickity-click on that without even reading it...! Maybe buried deep in some EUA for one or more services each one of us uses there is a statement that Prism is okey-dokey when we select OK.

Are EUA's even constitutional? Is an internet service provider required to let you do whatever you want with their service? Does Google have to let people search the weirdest and grossest and even illegal things and provide results to those things if they don't want to?

Now you have to ask the over 2,000 constitutional experts what their take is on the subject...each EUA in part or whole...and then it could change 180 degrees in just a few years...or months when new people take their seats.

I say don't expect privacy in anything you do. You waive your rights virtually every day just by walking out of your front door. The only real expectations I have are for myself.

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#66
In reply to #64

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 8:33 PM

The constitution is not complicated, nor does it apply to commercial entities. Buyer beware.

It deals specifically with human nature, (which has not changed), and the role of the necessary evil we call government. I am not an anti government type. I am a person that wants a responsible government that fulfills the role that was outlined for them.

Nothing less; nothing more. Adjustments should be tiny and only done when absolutely necessary. It does not include peering into my life, taking over our entire medical system, or a myriad of other abuses that are, (and have been for decades), taking place.

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#67
In reply to #64

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 8:40 PM

You wrote, "Where in the constitution does it implicity state that when a person pays a commercial entity for the service of providing communications that they must have complete freedom and privacy?"

I think the AMENDMENT IV covers that...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Note, that was a direct quote from US Bill of Rights. Sorry for the cut and paste, but I think it is relevant to the conversation.

The problem is not so much whether we have a right to privacy (from the government), we do. The issue is one of determining what is it that we have that falls under the 4th Amendment. Specifically, electronic data, where so many gray areas seem to be. Some officials feel that "effects" is not electronic data, particularly since it is carried on the backbone of a private company.

However, there does not seem be an issue with written papers being private despite being written on a substrate made by Georgia Pacific (a private company).

Now the 4th Amendment does not protect its citizens from a private company, just the government. States have additional laws that may govern that behavior, but privacy from private enterprise or other citizens is not protected under the 4th Amendment.

So, the whole problem has been the loose interpretation of what data is and what is private and what is not.

For example, the NSA is prohibited from singling out a particular US citizen (without a warrant) for copying of their private communications. So someone at the NSA simply interpreted that as being okay to copy everyone because they are no longer singling out an individual.

Incidentally, the legislative branches job is not to interpret the Constitution or the law. That is the sole domain of the judicial branch.

You wrote, "I say don't expect privacy in anything you do. You waive your rights virtually every day just by walking out of your front door."

I don't believe that is true. Any contract between you and another private entity (person or business) does not extend automatically to a government.

When I agree to share intellectual property with a private customer the agreement is not inclusive of the government.

The reverse holds true when I share an intellectual property agreement with a government agency. The contract spells out exactly what the government has a right to and is limited to only that. It does not automatically extend to the private sector.

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#65
In reply to #62

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 7:39 PM

I think it is the "expecting civilians to do the same" you wrote that I also seem to take out of Pete's response.

Pete, thank you for your service to this country (I really mean that), but I think Kramarat has made a very good point in that your service is is to protect the Constitution and the guarantees of rights to the citizens.

So, correct us if we are wrong, but are you really expecting citizens to surrender their rights because you did the same?

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#63
In reply to #59

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 7:32 PM

You wrote, "Terrorism is how they are ruled now."

Actually, if you read the history on Afghanistan you will see that terrorism (and all other forms of tyrannic brutality) has existed a lot longer than 40 years in that country.

It's not like it was a peaceful country with Umpa Lumpas running around until we got there.

And what is with all the ad hominem attacks on me?

You wrote, "Cutting and pasting of wiki's on CR4 gets real old, real fast."

You are accusing me of plagiarism, too? Prove that, if you will.

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#68
In reply to #63

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 9:21 PM

I agree it has existed (in one form or another/a turd by any other name), but I am only familiar in conversational form with the situation since the 70's. If I were going to accuse anybody of plagiarism I would do so openly. You just seem to have a spot on memory for the history of Afghanistan for the last several hundred years...typical of "memory by Internet" so commonly used by many. If you are the Alex Trebek of an obscure Eurasian countries, bravo for you.

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#69
In reply to #68

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/27/2013 10:02 PM

I had to look up some of the dates, but European, Greek, Persian, and Asian history has always been one subject I really enjoy. That and geopolitics in general are now a fascinating hobby for me and to a degree a part of my business.

You may also recall recent history that Russia had also tried to "conquer" Afghanistan and got their tail burned badly. Part of that was due to our arming the Taliban, the very entity that we are battling now. Maybe some type of geopolitical karma! :)

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#70
In reply to #68

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/28/2013 6:53 AM

Most of the precise and accurate answers on CR4, (particularly in regard to engineering questions), are culled from the internet.

If I see a question that interests me, I'll look for the real answer to it, and post a link to the page where I found it. I've learned a lot.

Whether AH knew those facts from memory or looked them up, is irrelevant. I'm glad he took the time to check and make sure he was posting accurate information.

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#42
In reply to #40

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 7:05 AM

Not sick at all. It's citizens on the ground that will likely thwart most terrorist plots...if anyone in government will pay attention.

The government's role is old fashioned leg work, not collecting our information. I know nothing about our security infrastructure, and yet I have a pretty high degree of certainty that potential terrorists are not openly discussing their plans by telephone, email, facebook and twitter. It would be stupid; I don't think they are stupid.

In the meantime, we are on the cusp of passing a bill that guarantees a porous southern boarder. I think that if people that want to pick tomatoes and apples can get through, the people that want to kill us can figure it out as well.

North Korea doesn't have a problem with terrorists; I don't want to live in North Korea.

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#45
In reply to #42

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 9:23 AM

So not only do you want to live with terrorists, you veil your racism by calling the people who get through the people who pick tomatoes and apples. Now you're just a racist bastard.

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#48
In reply to #45

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 10:35 AM

You are an amazing individual.

I am a manual laborer. I have known lots of people that are here from Mexico illegally.

News Flash: They don't come here to work on Wall St.

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 11:04 AM

I'll have to agree with that other guy.

Those are a blatantly racist stereotypes.

Next thing we know you'll say your not racist because you have "black friends".

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#51
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 11:38 AM

Then I have no choice but to hate myself. I have spent most of my life working as an "unskilled" laborer. Applying paint fits the criteria. Darn.

Next thing we know you'll say your not racist because you have "black friends".

Nope. I'm a racist that's married to a woman with the same pedigree as Obama. We have a beautiful daughter together. I hate her too.

I have 4 grandchildren whose father's came straight from Mexico. I hate them too.

My point was, that anyone that has been through al queda training, would find it quite easy to gain access to our country via our southern border.

You guys need to climb off your PC horses. Pointing out that someone qualifies as unskilled/low wage labor, does not constitute racism. It is what it is. I'm a realist.

How many of our wonderful representatives in Washington, (that are poised to vote to keep the border open), have "cheap" imported labor at home?

I wonder.

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#52
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 12:00 PM

The bottom line is:

That I know for a fact how open our southern border is; so it offends me when I'm told that we need thousands of drones crisscrossing the country, and that my phone calls and emails are being collected and stored, to keep me safe. It's utter nonsense.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 12:11 PM

How is it that I so vehemently support and agree with you here, and at other times, your posts make me see red! God bless America. I wish I was your neighbor.

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#54
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Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 12:28 PM

We'd have fun.

I'm pretty firm in my beliefs, so it it can get a little rocky at times, but anything else would be boring.

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#47
In reply to #32

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 10:07 AM

You work for the American Government. (You don't say if it's directly or through a contractor) The rest of us are financing the American Government, (and its contractors) and are making choices through our votes. See the distinction?

And BTW, the obvious answer as to why there have been more attacks in Europe is that it is in the backyard of the terrorists, while we are islanded 4000 miles away. No, I don't wonder why. I've seen a globe.

I have never lived in Europe. I like our system just fine. We get to change it up when it gets out of control, and we usually wait too long. Soon you will be retiring. It's the best scenario I can think of, because you are entrenched in an ideology that is compulsively driven to create nationalistic fervor, and to feel justified in exerting might through military dominance. It is wrong, and as long as you, and millions of others in the military industrial complex are convinced that justice is on your side, it's going to be a tough road for the rest of us pathetic Americans, who don't even know.

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#50
In reply to #47

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 11:28 AM

Thanks for the judgment. You phrase it so it sounds complimentary.

I am a retired military member and a military civil servant. "The rest of us" includes me and every other service member, civil servant, and contractor.

It's all appalause and thank-yous in public...when the service-member is in uniform and stepping off of the plane, but then turns to comments like these when people can hide out on the internet. Why don't you just go spit on service members at the airport when they get back from the sandbox? Oh, maybe because you are too shy, timid, or scared. Go practice your freedom of speech which I bled for in public...it may be an eye opening experience.

I am glad it's not so easy for the terrorists to attack us in the states. Geography is an advantage...so is mindset and willingness to stand up for what is right regardless of what certain people think.

Terribly sorry to inform you, but I am not due to retire for another 27 years.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 9:57 PM

I apologize. For some reason my last post responding to you did not post or disappeared for some reason.

It's too much trouble to rewrite it now.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 7:36 AM

The same thing just happened to me on another thread.

The house cleaning seems to have made things worse.

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#23

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 11:55 AM

A Guide to Getting Off the Grid

...from The Grid

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#27

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/24/2013 6:09 PM

Now that the cat's out of the bag, would someone explain to me how collecting and storing information on millions of Americans, helps national security and thwarts terrorism?

I had a chilling thought today, that the republicans and democrats are on the same team, and protecting the power structure they have built.

Ross Perot came too close for comfort, and they are looking to insure that the "limited government" conservative crowd, never get that close again. I'm not going to be surprised if that's what the snooping is all about. It's a very depressing thought.

I've always thought that Perot's sudden drop from the race was strange.

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#38

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/25/2013 5:37 PM

Here's how I look at it Pete...

I remember hearing in 2001, that the flight school owners alerted the FBI, that people of middle eastern origin wanted to only learn how to land planes; it was ignored. If it had been looked into, there may not have been a 9-11. We'll never know.

Forward to 2013, trillions more in debt, and we find out that the Russians alerted us to the Boston bombers; it was ignored.

Add to that, that our spy agencies have been turned on Americans, the IRS has been turned on Americans, the middle east is in a downward spiral and hates us more than ever, and every other little "fact" that I come across daily, and I don't like the looks of it.

Telling me I'm safer doesn't cut it.

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#55
In reply to #38

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 12:39 PM

This is exactly why automated systems like Prism need to be in place to allow the use of past information to figure out where we went wrong. Prism (and most other intelligence gathering methods) is not primarily intended to thwart an attack, but to possibly give us information about an incident which we wouldn't have had otherwise.

All of those cameras around the Boston bombing are just another facet of a Prism-like information gathering system. Without these systems the authorities would have had virtually nothing to go on.

After a crime, a police officer will question suspects who rely on memory to recall certain incidents. A system like Prism would be used to glean the data from electronic witnesses (instead of human witnesses) about the crime.

The Russians alerted us to suspicious individuals...that's all. Depending on the day of the week there are literally thousands of such tips presented to various local and federal government agencies. Any person in the world can send an anonymous tip to the DHS via a web site. If one of those tips turned out to be a key in the Boston bombing, would that be panned in the press as well?

We need systems in place to sift through all of the data. If we don't sift live then we save the data to go through later when it matters.

Post-incident investigation needs these tools. Without them, all we would have is one tip that the Russian's gave, ten-thousand other tips from a myriad of other reputable sources, and no way to link them to any one suspect. That tip was worthless without the gathered intelligence to reconstruct the crime scene.

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 1:36 PM

What you're telling me, is that terrorist attacks will still happen, and we need to monitor all Americans so that we can respond after the fact.

In the meantime, all kinds of laws and rulings are being created to protect the very people that want to kill us.

Let me tell you something Pete...

I'm no terrorist, but if I was, I would use FedEx to communicate. I would also use people that were willing to kill themselves in the commissions of the attacks. I would also make sure that I was back in my home country when the bombs went off. They may be determined, but they aren't using rocket science.

We are attempting to use super high tech methods against people that are using low tech methods, and infringing on the freedom of American citizens in the process. Not to mention the billions we are spending.

The way to fight these people and prevent attacks from happening, is as old as crime fighting itself; undercover agents that speak the language, join their groups, and collect information from those specific targets.

I'm sure that you've done a fine job in your work, but we know for a fact that the people in Washington cannot be trusted. If we continue to allow their constitutional limitations to be eliminated, I think we're all going to be sorry. There will be no turning back the clock.

You guys should look at us citizens as partners. There's not an American citizen alive that would allow a repeat of 9-11. If they tried it, they would emerge from the planes looking like hamburger.

Instead, the government is alienating it's own citizens, and quite frankly; scaring us.

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#43

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 9:05 AM

It's looking like any attempts at privacy are quickly being thwarted. I'll never bother trying to "get off the grid". It's impossible.

http://gizmodo.com/5923980/the-secret-government-laser-that-instantly-knows-everything-about-you

http://gizmodo.com/5941926/fbis-sinister-new-1-billion-project-will-track-everyone-by-their-face

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#44

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/26/2013 9:12 AM
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#72

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/28/2013 8:47 PM

Some of you guys might be interested in this thread. It's not appropriate for CR4, nor do I tend to agree with everyone on this site. But it's an interesting question.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/i'm-having-a-problem-with-the-fifth-amendment/

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#73

Re: A Guide to 'Getting Off the Grid'

06/29/2013 3:00 PM

Wow! Our list of friends just keeps getting shorter by the day.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-bugged-eu-offices-computer-networks-german-magazine-162017024.html

It's going to be a little difficult to sell the notion that this was a hunt for terrorists.

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