"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it" MAX PLANCK

Thank you "Guest". I suppose this is as rational as some of the other reasons I've heard for the acceptance of near fantasy schemes and theories.

As we pass the mantle of reason to younger generations there is always a chance of their repeating the mistakes we made when the older generation aceeded the reigns of science to us, and that is; rejecting what is old for that which is new.

Hello Teajonkwando,I have been following this blog with great interest,your comments, Jorrie's as well as many other contributers have been most thought provoking. I have been looking for some calc,'s I did for a class I volunteered to tutor some years ago,unfortunately my filling system is based on kaos theory if I ever discover the under lying pattern I may find the papers.

So without numbers in hand I will have to go by memory. The class was discussing a TV special (so as not to boast credentials I don't possess, I should say I'm not a teacher, just a simple mechanic) on UFOS complete with the fact that we have shot some UFOs down. It took a couple of days do the conversions to make my point. First to pay the energy bill to accelerate the space shuttle to .9999999C @10 cents a KWH you would have to print one dollar a second for five billion years. Next assuming throttling engines and maintaining a one G acceleration the last second of acceleration would require require the engines to produce power equivalent to accelerating the shuttle off the surface of the earth with the moon placed on its nose-and last you would have to be a lunatic to take potshots at something that could simply eject three hundred kilos of garbage and aim it at the earth, the impact would yield about 10⁶ megatons (extinction level event.) Current theory holds the universe to be expanding some what like a balloon inflating. You can fold a balloon with your fingers.S o the quest for warp drive using this method is how to grab a piece of the universe and how to generate the required force. Just as a passing comment and possibly off point is a quote that comes to mind,"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a plant is insignificant next to the power of the FORCE"' Considering our existence on this planet may well depend on our orbital position, if a star goes supernova eight Thosand light years from here and condsidering our past history with the fact the forces we would be toying with could not only destroy our plant but possibly the neighboring solar systems as well maybe we should think about that before we flip the switch on our warp drive. HOPEFULLY I'M NOT AROUND.....I would flip the switch I like going fast!

By the way I posted the Plank quote, I had miss placed my password I hope you were not offended I meant it as food for thought I was actually looking for a plank quote made at the turn of the 20th century about all major discoveries having been made. For most part I agree with you,sensationalism is the bane of our times distracting from ligitimate research and leading many learned people on wild goose chases. However on this forum as well as others notably(can entropy be reversed) ,there can a tendency overlook legitimate concepts along with all the B... ...... I hope I am not to far off point or to long winded and I apologize for any spelling or punctuation errors I did not catch ( damit Jim I am a mechanic not A typist) just one more quote I think by Bohr, "Reality is not only queerer than you imagine, but queerer than you could imagine"

WOW ! YWROADRUNNER you have been THINKING and that's what Jorrie intended with this blog. We need to explore these ideas particularly the idea of an FTL engine fueled with negative energy.

As you so aptly pointed out the positive energy required to reach 0.9999999 C would be an astronomical amount. However it might be possible to develop technology which would allow an acceleration to near C velocity or perhaps greater by drawing upon the resources of the universe.

Many believe there exists "Dark Energy", a form of energy which may also cause the strings in "String Theory" to vibrate. Assuming Dark Energy exists perhaps we can envision some method to utilize this energy similar in fashion to the "Dilithium Crystals" which powered the "Starship Enterprise" in the original Startrek TV series.

As I remember, the "crystals" drew energy from the universe and converted it to propulsion. It is within the realm of possibility some type of crystal or device may be employed in converting the multi-spectral dark energy to a singular resonance which could be focused energizing a field of resonating "negative gravity strings" or negative "Gravitons".

Focused negative gravity could be projected thus "towing' the vehicle to near C velocities without the expenditure of huge amounts of positive energy. It might be much like surfing with the negative energy engines providing an "buoyant" negative energy shell around the vehicle and generating an attractor force such as focused negative gravitons to provide propulsion.

If Dark Energy is responsible for the inflation of the Universe it might also be responsible for the relativistic distortion of time. Perhaps by encasing our ship in a force field of negative energy (which, at this time, seems to have no velocity limits) we might be able to exceed C. If within that force field "time" is also relativisticly slowed, the propagation of electromagnetic energy (C) would also be restrained.

A ship within a negative energy force field propelled by focussed negative gravitons could operate at less than C within the field but well beyond the speed of light in 'normal" space.

Hello Teajonkwando, Now I have something to else to think about. Superluminal velocity in normal space. Our Rf emissions are detectable approximately 100 light years out, if ET's are out there, if there traveling at superluminal velocity in normal space within that distance. How would our or any electromagnetic emissions appear,whats beyond maximum blue shift? According to some text negative kelvin temperatures are possible,but instead of being infinitely cold there infinitely hot,would hyper blue shifted photons be infinitely low energy? Communications at warp speed something Else to think about,right after I find the aspirin.

HI taejonkwando, it might help if I explained my thinking (which is convoluted at best). In the past I've thought that a warp ship would be isolated from RF, in that they would be traveling through a worm hole or stepping from one piece of folded space to another bypassing most of normal space. We should be able to detect an advanced civilization within the 100 light year sphere and they would be able to detect us, yet so far none have been detected. Many believe that we have been visited, however baring a deliberate solar system by solar system search or pure chance how would ET know where we are? The most compelling evidence for me of ET's visiting earth is our governments' emphatic denial of any visitation. So if ET'S can travel in normal space at Superluminal velocity and detect RF emission, finding and visiting us would be more likely. So if we have been visited there is no question about warp drive, somebody's got it. I'm not saying we have been visited, but knowing where we are would make it easier to drop in, told you it was convoluted.

Now risking the rubber room , using time travel for space travel , Relativity,go fast enough you can go forward in time as far as you want to, (compared to a stationary observer) QED states subatomic partials move back and forth in time, Kip Thorp's clac's say its possible. Go back in time to a smaller universe then move one way or the other. Now return to your starting place in time. Would you move like an ink mark on an inflating balloon? Not saying its possible, just thinking.

Very Interesting! The idea of stepping from one piece of folded space to another is intriguing. However when one views the universe it seems to be more like a three dimensional ocean rather than something we can identify as planar and foldable.

There is evidence of turbulent areas in this vast ocean of space where energies are at a higher order due to supernovas or other energetic phenomena. Here in this turbulent relm, where gravity profoundly dominates, we should find places where C is varible and time is distorted as well.

The boundry between the laminar flow of space/time and the turbulence of immense gravitational distortions would be the logical place to expect regions of temporal discontinuities which might provide the avenue for "stepping from one place in folded space to another".

Manipulating or transiting these areas would require opposing energies of equal or greater magnitude thus posing the conundrum of focus and containment while maintaining a normal gravity/normal time habital environment.

The classic control room/engine bay scenario of science fiction starship design is unlikely unless "unobtainium" or force fields can safely separate the cataclysmic forces of equalized propulsion in this eigenspace chaos from the human required environment.

If, as many propose, this earth has been (or still is being) visited by extra terrestial beings, those beings would certainly be so far advanced in technological acheivement that communication between their species and ours would be akin to our communicating with cockroaches.

The question arises; would they even recognize our primitive species as worthy of an effort to attempt communication?

Hi TaeJonKwanDo, sorry for the long gap in my reply. I ve been a little busy with a control project, and reading past posts so I don't ask any more inane questions or make any more inane comments.

As you wrote: If, as many propose, this earth has been (or still is being) visited by extra terrestial beings, those beings would certainly be so far advanced in technological acheivement that communication between their species and ours would be akin to our communicating with cockroaches.

The question arises; would they even recognize our primitive species as worthy of an effort to attempt communication?

I believe any species intelligent enough to have developed warp drive would easily recognize our species as possibly primitive but intelligent. I would also think, any advance civilization would have to share some common attributes, such as curiosity without curiosity there can be no advancement. My pennies worth of philosophy.

As you pointed out in your response to my positive energy requirements for warp drive there may be a ways of utilizing negative energy, zero point energy, as well as many other possibilities for warp speed. So as far as ET visiting Earth if there is ET's out there, the only question left is how resource consuming warp drive would be, assuming warp drive is possible that is, ET is bound to bump into us sooner or later for what good is warp drive if you don't use it.

Is warp drive possible? In a question I posted to Jorrie,( just a quick question on nonlocality C is the universal speed limit. Entangled particles react instantly over any distance. This action is described as zero time rather than Superluminal. Whats the difference?) That I have currently have been unable to find an answer to, or at least one that I can understand,Jorrie responded; QM is not quite my field, so the best I can give you is that information cannot be sent by entangled particles in zero time. The 'information' is randomized, so it contains no info! There is another process needed to assure that information can be transferred and it operates at c.

In following previous post it seems that this is a sore spot with Jorrie, with good reason as the results of the experiments have been taken out of context, so before I ask another inane question I have to do a little more research. But to me the change of state of the entangled particles is information traveling faster than light. If entangled particles are breaking the speed limit maybe we can.

In closing I would like to thank you for your responses. As I have said I've been following the threads and you seem to be an electrical engineer . If you are, and if you wouldn't mind I have posted a question in the electrical engineering section I would appreciate your input. One final question your avatar has me somewhat perplexed.

Hi YWROADRUNNER. I'm halfway through Jorrrie's book (which is a "great read" as they say) and I'm trying to agree with Einstein however there seems to be too many "special" circumstances, inventions, constructs or what ever, needed to get the Theory of Relativity (TOR) to a quasi factual basis.

In my previous posts I discussed some of the criteria needed to make the theory of Dark Matter viable and I will briefly restate them here.

1. Dark Matter limits the speed of light or any other propagating EMF including gravity.

2. Dark matter is the Aether both Maxwell and Einstein had to reconsider after ignoring this influence in previous discourses.

3. Dark Matter can be described as a cold plasma, the residual of anti matter left over from the Big Bang. Here let me note I am not revisiting Peratt or Alfven although they do pose some interesting thoughts on the development of cosmic plasma.

4. Dark Energy is the anti gravitational force generated by the mass of Dark Matter.

Since no evidence exists to support the claims of Dark Matter or Dark Energy, all of the above comments are speculations intended to promote discussion. Hopefully discussion will open avenues of thought toward validating the existence of Dark Matter and Dark Energy providing some possible means of using these hypothetical phenomena to obtain FTL travel.

Waldyr A. Rodrigues Jr. proposes superluminal phenomenon is a frame of reference traveling with a speed greater than the speed of light. Perhaps this "frame of reference" is not at odds with TOR causality as observed by Wang (et al., 2000) "and is instead a consequence of classical interference between its constituent frequency components and a region of anomalous dispersion". Wang (et al.,2000).This could lead to an explanation regarding the QM phenomena of entangled particles reacting over a distance instantaneously.

Whether the TOR or QM reigns supreme in FTL arguments, the question of why C or any other emf is limited to a certain propagation velocity will remain. Dark Matter has been offered as an answer to this question however Dark Matter is unproven to exist as is Aether which is a theoretical construct necessary to support the Special TOR and Maxwell's observations.

FTL may be possible if time can be artificially dilated or expanded to slow the relative velocity as Rodrigues suggests.

As to Alien interest in our species, I suspect it has already occurred either supernaturally as in religious encounters or in times past when our species evolutionary progress seems to have been given an evolutionary "jump start" i.e. Homo Sapiens over Neanderthal.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. My responses to this forum may also be delayed because of my impending retirement and travel plans. However since this forum has no cut off date I hope you and others will continue this dialog. P.S. My Avatar often perplexes me also.

Dear Taejonkwando, A point to ponder: What if C, light speed is similar to M1, sound speed? In air or any other medium sound is conducted at a set speed varying for the medium. The denser the medium, the faster the propagation. What if the aether's propagation limit is set at C because of the "density", or lack thereof? By density I mean the lack of electromagnetic and electrogravitic flux. The flux can be altered locally, thereby altering the speed limit locally. Has any one else done the experiment of altering the electromagnetic density to 10 x 10 to the 20th gauss and then measure C? You will be interested at the results. And yes you have read the previous two sentences correctly. Therein lies heresy and the secret.

Regards Dragon

I aint no smart guy but.....

Your sound wave comparison is a comparison that I was pondering.

Speed of light can be increased by further removal of the medium through which it is passing.

cr3

Dear Dragon, You ask "Has any one else done the experiment of altering the electromagnetic density to 10 x 10 to the 20th gauss and then measure C?"

A very interesting concept. There is evidence not only light but time as well are modified in a nuclear reaction. The flux densities of a nuclear generated reaction are well into the millions of Tesla's and the resulting EMP distorts the propagation of all energies including gravity.

Current torpedo technology uses a rocket motor as the prime mover and rocket motor in the nose of the torpedo with it's exhaust aimed opposite the direction of travel to blow a hole in the water in which the torpedo will travel. This allows the torpedo to travel in velocities which would be impossible to obtain otherwise.

Your concept leads us to consider the following scenario. To travel faster than c it might be possible propel a spacecraft into a nuclear reaction, perhaps even a continuous nuclear reaction which would distort the space/time continuum. Of course we must accept this may not be steerable and might land our spacecraft into another dimensional quadrature far from the reality of this temporal reference.

However, theoretically it can provide our intrepid explorers with a door into another space/time, perhaps even allowing the idea of the spacecraft generating it's own nuclear space/time hole blowing device as does our model, the rocket propelled torpedo.

Dear Dragon, I apologise for not giving you a more complete answer to your question, "What if the aether's propagation limit is set at C because of the "density", or lack thereof? By density I mean the lack of electromagnetic and electrogravitic flux."

In one of our previous posts we discussed this with Jorrie who offered there was no evidence to support turbulent or varying densities of Aether/Dark Matter are sufficiently intense as to provide more than a very slight affect on c. I have to yield in this position until I can research this question in more depth.

However that is not to say this position is without merit. The fundamental question remains "what limits the speed of light?" or any EME (electromagnetic energy) for that matter. The postulate that one can measure c from a retreating source and find it to be the at the same velocity as from an advancing source indicates something is arbitrarily imposing a limit on the propagation of light.

Since there are many questions and few answers we have only speculation to drive this discussion. Therefore as I posted earlier, "Dark matter limits the speed of light" and yes this is speculation or if you prefer, a SWAG.

This SWAG does have some roots in scientific literature in the works of H. Alfven and Anthony L. Peratt,(both are easily Googled under "Cosmic PLasma"). Much of this work has been somewhat ignored by the mainstream scientific community however there are remarkable similarities to Maxwell and Einstein's ideas regarding Aether/Dark Matter and I find Mr. Peratt's equations impeccably logical.

As you can see your question brings more questions to the table. I hope more cosmologists join in this discussion. However they may feel we venture too far into the unknown with what they would consider to be wild ideas.

In a way this is to our advantage because we are not trained to not consider these options. In this respect we are like the Bumble Bee , who according to aerodynamic theory cannot fly. But no one has told this to the bee so it continues to fly in spite of the aerodynamicists objections LOL.

I like this! So a small sustaining reaction at the nose of the 'craft, vehicle, etc' to distort the environment into which you will travel.

Now does this fall into the problem of:"headlights on a vehicle travelling at the speed of light?"

I guess if the reaction creates a desired 'miniwarp' a more perpetual warp could be sustained

Man I should of stayed in school

cr3

School? perhaps, but as it is, your mind is a precious gift to us all. Now that being said I want to give you a challenge to answer your own question;

"Now does this fall into the problem of:"headlights on a vehicle travelling at the speed of light?"

We have determined that our rocket has modified the space/time continuum in some manner via the huge EM pulse(s) provided by the nuclear explosion(s). Therefore within this nuclear environment time is relative (per Prof. Einstein). That is to say, time is relative to the operating frame of reference which in this case is no longer relative to time in our universe.

So, what happens now when the light we are measuring is no longer under the influence of this universe's speed limit?

Dear Taejonkwando, You wrote "something is arbitrarily imposing a limit on the speed of light." Like perhaps a space-time equivalent of a "shock wave"? I recall a quote, the name of whose author evades me for some reason' "The aether (dark matter/energy) can not be grasped by physical means we can only get at it electrically" As soon as I can find the name I will get it to you. The method for exceeding C is quite similar to the method used for the torpedo. But instead of a jet of plasma (ionized gas) one uses a very intense magnetic field.

Cordially Dragon

Hello Dragon, Your author's use of a very intense magnetic field to aid in exceeding c might be a viable concept. But I fear the amount of power required to generate the required intensity of the magnetic field will be equivalent to that of the "nuclear space/time hole blaster".

Your author has an interesting idea, i.e., "The aether (dark matter/energy) can not be grasped by physical means we can only get at it electrically". Both Alfven and Peratt talk about ionized cosmic plasma streams which trail through the universe.

In a previous post I mentioned how lightning can travel miles following wind blown ionized paths in the air. Perhaps using "electricity" to manipulate Aether and entering one of these cosmic plasma streams may allow for near FTL velocities.

Dear Taejonkwando, The amount of power necessary is actually 1.2 x 10 to the 14th power (sorry about the early statement of 10 to the 20th) and the density of the field is the most important factor. There is at least one method of producing energy in sufficient density and amount. I refer you the work of T. T. Brown and John Searl for further review. By the way the quote was from Sir Oliver Lodge.

I have seen a small (6 inch <>) one of these generators in operation generate over one hundred kilowatts. And the energy out put increases exponentially as the size increases. A possibility for your "nuclear space/time hole blaster?" And no nuclear fuel, waste or EMF to deal with. The device runs off of the so called "Newtonian Wobble" that all matter above 0 degrees K has. A sort of "heat entropy" engine. Quite effective in a brute force sort of way.

Anyway, I must take some time to rest and complete an experiment. I may be out of contact for several days.

Cordially and humbly yours Dragon

Hi taejonkwando, you wrote:

"The fundamental question remains "what limits the speed of light?" or any EME (electromagnetic energy) for that matter."

The short (and useless?) answer is obviously that it comes out of Maxwell's equations and is given by the inverse square root of the product of the permittivity of free space (ε₀) and the magnetic constant (μ₀₎.

Interestingly, this was the speed of light relative to the aether and nobody said that it cannot be exceeded, until Einstein came along. What Einstein really said is that you can never measure anything to go faster than light - not that in some or other (weird) reference frame things cannot go faster.

Now, we use light to measure things that move and we even determine distance by means of the speed of light. Is it surprising that we find the speed of light to always be c? And that we cannot measure anything as going faster than c?

In Galilean relativity one could achieve ~2c relative to something else - you fly east and I fly west, both of us at v ~ c, and walla! In Einstein's relativity, we will observer (measure) a relative velocity of ~c, not ~2c. As far as we could establish, Einstein was right!

Jorrie

Hello Jorrie, and thank you for explaining the difference between Maxwell's ideas on c and Einstein expansion of the those comments. I think we're movinging toward an agreement which accept the measurement and the limitations on the ultimate velocity of EME (c) within the restrictive parameters of our known environment.

In other words we're not abandoning Newtonian physics to wholeheartedly accept Einstein but we are finding relevance through the bridging logic of Maxwell.

Somewhere in our limited understanding of this universe must be an analog of balance between the force(s) which limits c and the force(s) of infinite expansion, something which seems to lack cosmological evidence but exists as a concept in QM.

To allow the velocity limitation imposed on c to remain unchallenged seems to abridge Einstein's original concept of an expanding universe. In essence, we allow the very odd idea of c to be static in a dynamic universe. Until we know how this mysterious force(s) works to limit the propagation of any EME to a specific velocity, the Theory of Relativity will remain just that: a theory.

Hi taejonkwando, you wrote: "As you so aptly pointed out the positive energy required to reach 0.9999999 C would be an astronomical amount. However it might be possible to develop technology which would allow an acceleration to near C velocity or perhaps greater by drawing upon the resources of the universe."

Some guys just described how! Maybe it's a bit 'waco', coming from Baylor University, Waco, Texas!

Just joking - it seems like a serious paper. Haven't studied it in detail yet, but thought I'll let you guys know.

Jorrie

Dear Jorrie, Brilliant digging on your part! My accolades. What I interpret the paragraph that I read to say is that using the extra dimension (i.e. warp bubble) one could avoid the speed trap of C. Instead of using the interstate one, in a sense, rises to a level above the road. Like the difference between taking a car and taking a helicopter or aircraft. Again, great catch on that info.

Dragon

"We know today EME's propagational velocities are slowed and reflected in turbulent mediums. Wind shear radar is an example of turbulent air affecting the propagation of EME."

Since I worked on these systems for aircraft and I can tell you that the detection method is not due to changes in EME's propagation speed. Sorry.

The mechanism for detecting turbulence in air has to do with doppler effects of water droplets circulating in the air. Radar algorithms look for a mishmash of doppler velocity changes that indicate that there is turbulent motion of the air. Basically, there are conflicting horizontal components of movement of water droplets as they rise and fall due to eddies of air movement.

The chosen frequencies for doppler weather radar are 2.71 and 2.76 Ghz. They are chosen because that is the frequency that will reflect from water molecules in the air.

Thank you for the clarification of wind shear radar however turbulence does play a part in reflecting wind shear radar especially in dry (<10% RH) air where no moisture or "water droplets" are present.

Tests at Edwards Air Force Base in the Mojave Desert examined high and low altitude wind shear phenomena using C band radar (4 to 7 gHz) and studies done by William O.J. Brown and Rod R. Roberts at McGill University along with Allied Signal's patents in X band (9.3 gHz) wind shear detection show very graphically dry air wind shear turbulence affecting radar returns.

While the velocity of EME may or may not be affected, turbulent mediums absolutely do affect the transmission of EME. The most graphic example I can readily think of is the presentation of aerodynamic shock waves in hypersonic wind tunnels using Schileren photography and high speed strobe lights where light is modulated by shock waves in clear air.

Doppler radars which operate in the 2-3Ghz range do so because they are not as affected by dry air turbulence as the higher frequency radars. You are correct in stating "they (the 2-3 gHz frequencies)are chosen because that is the frequency that will reflect water molecules in the air".

However it is not the reflection of water molecules that is at issue here, it is the disruption or momentary slowing of EME by a turbulent medium known as "Dark Matter". Perhaps you can shed some light on that phenomena (pun intended, Kudos to Del the Cat).

I expect we'll all have fun with this subject and in the end when we've exhausted our Wikipedia's Googles and even (gasp!) textbooks we will all be the wiser but not any richer because (even Jorrie agrees) all this wonderful speculation will not increase your paycheck one bit.

Dear taejonkwando: Thank you for the quote, however Slaying a Dragon is not something I aspire to! (sort of like fratricide L.O.L.)

Think I'll go fishing. Spend time with my kids. Try and enjoy the life that is right here in front of me before some over educated dipsh*ts blow the whole place to smithereens trying to do something in a laboratory that they should best be leaving alone.

Please feel free to inject a bunch of self righteous crap about how the species needs such utter absurdity.

cr3

Just the sort of "self righteous crap" I'd expect to hear from that neck of the woods.

If you don't get the point of such a discussion as this, you never will; that's more your problem than mine (or anyone else involved in this thread). If all you want to do is stick your head in the sand and hide from the troubles of the world, feel free. Tyler ain't too bad a place after all and you can get on with screwing up the planet along with all your kin if you like. Have at it.

In the mean time we'll get on with doing our shit and at least try to ensure there's a human race left in the universe once you folks have finished trying to make sure we go the way of the dinosaurs (or didn't they exist either?)

And since when was there any such thing as 'over' education (and I know a whole heck of a lot of folks that'd laugh themselves silly to hear me described that way since I left school at 16).

Hi C Rummel, Good for you!! Even if I think this need to be done, it needs doing someplace safe: like out near the orbit of Pluto!

Dragonsfarm

Warp Drive Coming? Surely it is coming.

Wouldn't it be possible to utilize relativistic mass gain - ie to push a handful of negative mass atoms to say 99.99999+% c ? In doing so one in theory could achieve the mass requirement to warp space/time for FTL.

Then it merely becomes an energy problem which can be solved by utilizing antimatter. I'd imagine that the mass gain unit would be some sort of super large tubular synchrotron on mega engineering steroids.

I guess that "Scotty" and his crew would have their hand tied full 24/7 with such an apparatus, talk about a maintenance nightmare, lol..

Jayjay