Climate Initiatives Predicted to Fail

You might want to look at the websites below that discuss some of the issues about global weather cycles that appear to mimic what happened just prior to the the last Mini-Ice-Age when Viking Explorers settled Iceland, Greenland (which they eventually abandoned during the Mini-Ice-Age), found grapes growing in Canada in an area that they called Vinland (their settlements there have now been found by archeologists even though it was earlier thought to be a TALL TALE - Myth) AND vineyards grew in England like they now do in France. There was a very warm period during the Middle Ages followed by the last Mini-Ice-Age (1150 to 1460) and there was more recently a Little-Ice-Age (1645-1705). There are numerous climate experts predicting a coming Mini-Ice-Age based on the changing water flows in the North Atlantic. Also, there is a Russian Astronomer predicting another Little-Ice-Age during 2035-2045 due to predicted reduced solar output as part of the Sun's cycles. Also, there is global warming on Mars. Therefore, it is not clear that human activity is the cause of the current warming cycle and we may actually have very limited ability to change the large climate cycles due to solar output, ocean currents, and other things out of our control at this stage of our technological development.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/mgs-092005-imagesc.html

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060206/43371626.html
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/little_ice_age.html
http://www.stanford.edu/~moore/history_health.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1130_051130_ice_age_2.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8398
http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/dec2005/11/warming.htm

Thanks for sending these links along!

Well, Thanks for the links. Now I have read them all, the conclusion is not that CO2 is good for you. What is tells me is that we need more study and get more data and try to get away from the oil company and their surrogates who say there is no problem. The data shows that there is a problem. Seems the jury is out still but either way we have a problem. Cooling or heating ? I certainly thought based on what I had read previously that we were definitely heating. And we are. But is there another movement going on behind this, the next Ice Age ?

The Stern Review states that we are heating up. I go along with that anyway. If it turns out not to be right we have built an insurance policy. But that is better than Mr. Bush "stick your head in the sand."

Seems the jury is out still but either way we have a problem. Cooling or heating ? I certainly thought based on what I had read previously that we were definitely heating. And we are. But is there another movement going on behind this, the next Ice Age ?

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Definitely in a heating cycle, and definitely headed toward mini? ice age. 2 heat transfer systems at work here. 1 is ocean currents moving warm water toward the poles and cooling to sink as it cools. As this warmer water moves to the poles, it melts ice already accumulated, releasing fresh water into the surface. The fresh water dilutes the incoming flow, reducing its density, preventing it from sinking and effectively shutting off the ocean current balance. As more ice melts, and the surface continues to decrease in salinity, water evaporates at a faster rate, bringing mechanism 2 into play. Mechanism 2 is atmospheric flow from the tropics to the poles. Water vapor from the tropics is carried to the poles and deposited as ice, sequestering it and increasing the salinity of the ocean. Increasing salinity reduces the evaporation rate, slowing the accumulation of ice, and letting mechanism 1 take over again as the salinity increases. The natural cycles can be shortened or lengthened by volcanic activity or fluctuations in solar input that change the balance. The CO2 smokescreen is only a way to generate "carbon credits" for trading purposes and making money off pollution. george oerther oertg@aol.com

Your analysis is correct. However, your conclusion should be "...either way we have ... <change>" which will have associated problems and opportunities. The climate changing is part of the natural cycle just like the tectonic plates moving and both cause problems only when we do not expect, study, and prepare for change.

MAkes no sense at all

My questions are: Who is paying all these self proclaimed expert to develop web pages, do useless "research" and sit in an office doing nothing but guessing? What agenda is served? Who is behind the agenda? What power elite/organization will profit?

CO2 is a good thing. The key is clean conversion INTO CO2 so that plants can use it. The data is clear and massive...co2 is a good thing, not bad. Praise be to the Humvee! May all the world be able to burn so much fuel, cleanly.

All of the links were mostly anti-co2 and doom and gloom with massive contradiction of religious proportions. They are out for a free lunch on you and me. Are you blind or what? Global Warming = hoax = tax scheme. The taxes go to fund total waste in government civilian "jobs" (middle class welfare) to build yet another hierarchy to control people. The government slugs are the most uncreative slugs in humansluggeria, and would be at $5.15/hr if there was not the government wanting useful idiots. Their opinion don't fly on the open market, so they get a government job and title to force their opinion down our throats at GS15 levels (100K+/year). Instead of going to a 7-11 and putting a gun to the head of a teller like an honest thief each day (by the sweat of their brow…or at least some adrenaline) these rats get automatic deposits via Uncle Sam.

Get a real life! Doesn't it make a "rat" want to vomit each day going to a worthless rat job ripping off people? One more meaningless policy after worthless study after another, shamelessly feeding and producing nothing? Have ye no self-respect? No Honor?

Studies are part of what engineers do that is very valuable. Making well informed decisions is important for everyone. As you should see from my previous note; I do not believe that humans are all or even a large portion of the reason for global warming; however, we need to evaluate all available information to make good decisions.

Relax. The bureacrats in Washington aren't smart enough to take away your humvee. After all, they failed the people of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and are losing the war in Iraq.

When we do eventually bring the troops home from Iraq (win or lose, eventually we WILL get out, history has shown this) do you think we might see this on e-bay?

FOR SALE: 1,000 slighly used SUV's. May have minor shrapnel and bullet hole damage. Similar to the GM HUMMER but loaded with very rare accessories, some including:

Paint - desert camoflage, ideal for those lazy days cruising the dunes in Southern California and Baja, or making a fashion statement in Manhattan!

Steel plate body armor kit - perfect for young entrepreneurs who might suddenly find themselves the victims of a driveby shooting! Extra weight no more penalty on fuel economy than your current blingage!

Rear-mounted machine gun turret - M60 machine gun optional. Perfect for setting up that mobile Deer stand at the side of the road during hunting season!

MP version - With "equalizer" shotgun rack and nightstick holders, and complete with insurgent/perp backseat "cage" lockup. Ideal for rural law enforcement, or just having fun with "the boys" on Saturday night. Flashing light "Cherries" on a stick and sireen, no extra charge!

Field Ambulance version - Ideal for use as a "camper". May require extra application of Febreeze to eliminate the "odor of death" and extra scrubbing with Clorox to remove bloodstains.

You should look at history. We never left Germany, Japan, Korea, Panama, Cuba, or Kuwait. As much as we wish to withdraw from the world, that is not an option, because our position requires responsibility. A more likely scenario is that we will increasingly have robots do our fighting. The wars going on now are accelerating robot development just like WWI and WWII accelerated airplane and other technology development.

David

Well, my posting was meant to be humorous, but since you decided to make it serious here goes:

While we may have "never left Germany, Japan, Korea, Panama, Cuba, or Kuwait.", we did seriously downsize or forces in most of those locations, in many cases to pre-conflict strength. Yes, we do have military bases and forces around the world, however the situation in Iraq is more like that in Viet Nam. We are fighting almost exclusively insurgents, terrorists, and other irregulars, like the Viet Cong.

Also, the situation was much different in each of those you mentioned. Germany and Japan were aggressor nations who capitulated at the end of a long and costly conflict, costly for their civilians as well as their military. Yet, there was no insurgency that followed the surrender of their governments like there is today in Iraq. US forces stayed as a partner to help rebuild the country and help deter external aggression during that rebuilding, and as long as we and that country felt our presence was necessary to maintain deterrence. That has continued to this day, mostly because both sides value the partnership.

In some cases, it is just a matter of practicality. Our Naval base in Cuba has almost nothing to do with the internal politics of the country. It is in fact very isolated. It has everything to do with maintaining a strategic presence in the Caribbean. Don't forget that the US territories there include the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. It doesn't hurt us that Guantanamo is a thorn in Castro's side either! And Panama had substantial US forces in place due to our strategic interest in the Canal and its ideal setting as a tropical training center, before the dictatator forced our hand by provoking a showdown. Like Saddam in Kuwait, he underestimated the US ability to get the job done, based on our performance in Viet Nam (and I mean the Civilian government's performance, not the military's!).

Iraq will eventually either stabilize or degenerate into Civil War, which we are NOT prepared to fight. I see the US soon either making an all out attempt to disarm the insurgents, or broker a piece initiative between them and the current government that will allow the US "Peace with Honor", just like in Viet Nam. And Kuwait is different, the Kuwaiti's want us there, the Iraqis do not! Even those in Iraq who are glad we got rid of Saddam want us to go now, please!

Let's look at all the places we used to have substantial forces, now, not so much: England, France, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria, Phillipines, Thailand, Kosevo, Libya, Bosnia-Herzogovinia, even Germany and Japan are drastically reduced now. Don't forget Haiti, Grenada, Honduras, Burma, India, and China! Oh, yeah, Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia.

You might as well say that we have fighting forces in almost every country in the world, since every embassy is guarded by a contingent of combat-ready US Marines!

Of course our position requires responsibility. It was our taking responsibility for a situation that called for action when most of the countries of the world took a back seat that got us into Iraq in the first place! And don't give me the party line about no WMD being found, because I consider Chemical and Biological weapons to be WMD, since they can blanket a very wide area killing or maiming every human there, civilians as well as combatants. Maybe I am preaching to the choir. I hopes so!

You are correct that we have had military operations in almost every nation in the world (notable additions are Libyia - Tripoli, Russia after WWI, and Mexico after annexing Texas and just before WWI). However, there were insurgencies in Germany and Japan after WWII, more in Germany than Japan, or at least the veterans I have spoken with said that is the case since those facts are not publicized. Most of Iraq is peaceful compared to other nations in that area. Iraq probably will be partitioned which is probably a good thing. However, I believe we will stay as long as necessary. Us leaving Viet Nam was bad for it rather than us. Should we leave Iraq or some part of it then that will be bad for people living in those areas.

David

I am not sure how us Military works into climate change, but I do know if you read a BSFC curve and figure out how to make it flat (less than .2-.25 lb/hr-hr) at around 1- 10% of power, you will cut fuel consumption by at least 1/2. I do know that if you put that engine in a house and generate electricity in the house where it should be generatred and where the waste heat can be used, fuel consumption will drop in half or more. In fact I can see 50-80% of fuel consumption dropage. That means that either the rest of the world can get power with the same fuel flows, or the oil companies will be in rethinking their CEO's pension plan. Put another way, all that Al Gore wants would be achieved without any tax scheme or UN. The money for terroist would dry up, just like the CEO's pension. Dog and cat would live in peace. Just figure out how to make the curve flat...

Insurgencies in Germany and Japan after WWI? Really? Unless you mean the hunting down and bringing to justice former Nazies and Japanes Fascist who committed atrocities and other war crimes. I would hardly call that an insurgency. Where and when did armed forces of insurgents actually battle Allied troops after their governments signed surrender documents? Sure, in the Pacific their were isolated cases of individuals or small groups of Japanese soldiers, who did not believe that Japan had surrendered, and continued to fight on, but most of the extremists committed sepuku, rather than face the dishonor they felt. And of course, top Nazis had cyanide or a quick bullet to the temple as their quick way out. If there really was a bonafide insurgency in Post-war Germany or Japan, that would make an excellent book. Is anything like that published? If so, is it in the fiction or non-fiction section of the library?

You also said, "Most of Iraq is peaceful compared to other nations in that area." Really? How many dead soldiers come home to the US and the UK from Iran, Kuwait, the U.A.R., Yemen, Turkey, Syria, Jordan. Only in Israel and the West Bank do you have a similar kind of fighting going on. Even Afghanstan is much quieter, though some fighting does still take place against Taliban holdouts. Yes, there are some peaceful areas of Iraq, but not the country as a whole.

"Iraq probably will be partitioned which is probably a good thing." Hmm, was it a good thing for the British-mandate in Palestine after WWII, creating Israel and Trans-Jordan (now Jordan)? Hardly, but it was likely the only alternative. How about British India split into India, Nepal, Pakistan, and now Banglasdesh. Yeah that worked out great! At least it prevented Civil War, right? Instead, it left one whole country starving (East Pakistan, which became Bangladesh) and others constantly having border skirmishes. Germany, split into Eastern and Western zones? North and South Korea?

"However, I believe we will stay as long as necessary. Us leaving Viet Nam was bad for it rather than us. Should we leave Iraq or some part of it then that will be bad for people living in those areas." Yes, us leaving Viet Nam was bad, for those in power and position in the South. For the everyday people, not much changed. They substituted a Communist dictatorship for a Fascist one. The hope in Viet Nam was that we could deter the communist aggression and eventually help the South to become more Democratic, but in the long run, 30 years of peace has probably been better for the average person in Viet Nam. On the other hand, we suffered the degradation of our military at home and misjudgement of every two-bit dictator ever after who thought that the US would back down as it eventually did in Viet Nam, thinking that America had lost the stomach for fighting. Yes, we do provide a buffer between various forces in Iraq, and there would be a bloodbath in some areas, just as there had been under Saddam. Remember, before Kuwait, Saddam used most of his military power on his own people! Vengeance is an ugly thing. It can simmer and smolder for years before exploding with extreme violence once restraints are removed. But if we became the internal policemen for every country in the world, that would be very bad for us. We would be hated even more than we are already.

You might find this one interesting, STL Engineer. Condoleezza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld seem to believe that there was an insurgency in Germany after WWII. Here's what they had to say at the VFW convention in Texas back in 2003:

Condi's Remarks

"There is an understandable tendency to look back on America's experience in post-War Germany and see only the successes. But as some of you here today surely remember, the road we traveled was very difficult. 1945 through 1947 was an especially challenging period. Germany was not immediately stable or prosperous. SS officers -- called "werewolves" -- engaged in sabotage and attacked both coalition forces and those locals cooperating with them -- much like today's Baathist and Fedayeen remnants."

Rummy's Remarks

"One group of those dead-enders was known as "werewolves." They and other Nazi regime remnants targeted Allied soldiers, and they targeted Germans who cooperated with the Allied forces. Mayors were assassinated including the American-appointed mayor of Aachen, the first major German city to be liberated. Children as young as 10 were used as snipers, radio broadcasts, and leaflets warned Germans not to collaborate with the Allies. They plotted sabotage of factories, power plants, rail lines. They blew up police stations and government buildings, and they destroyed stocks of art and antiques that were stored by the Berlin Museum. Does this sound familiar?"

Is this fact or fantasy? Truth or spin? I'll leave that up to the reader. We've all gone far afield from the original nature of this post (though I've enjoyed the discussion).

Facts, facts, give me facts! I know that Germany was not immediately stable or propserous, else we would not have needed an Army of Occupation. But, how many Americans actually died from these attacks as compared to the overall forces stationed there, or compared to the number that have died in Iraq after victory was declared? How many of their fellow countrymen did they kill? And how fast were they rounded up and brought to justice?

Can you reallly compare that to now?

I will let you look for the facts. I heard that the number of just Americans that died after the end of hostilities in WWII was in the thousands. However, the issue after WWII and now is really lawlessness which is rampant in the nations around Iraq (due to the tribal nature of their societies) so it is not surprising that Iraq has lawlessness. Also, concerning the breakup of India you should consider what might have happened if it had not been partitioned.

David

Yeah, I did look, and found the flip side of the "Werewolf" story, that it was primarily urban legend, unsupported by history, regardless of what Condi and Rummy said!

Check out this article on Slate and you will see what I mean!

Here is a key excerpt:

It's hard to understand exactly what Rumsfeld was saying, but if he meant that the Nazi resisters killed Americans after the surrender, this would be news. According to America's Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, a new study by former Ambassador James Dobbins, who had a lead role in the Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo reconstruction efforts, and a team of RAND Corporation researchers, the total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germany—and Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan cases—was zero.

Iraq is a country, formed by Western powers after WW1, containing a number of disparate but distinct ethnic and religious groups. This country has been held together as one nation, by the will of a series of ruthless dictators, Sadaam hopefully being the last. Sound familiar? Like Yugoslavia? And like that country, this one too will end in partition along more sensible border lines. For an outsider to get involved in this natural evolutionary process is madness.

However, the removal of Sadaam was necessary. The methodology is suspect, but is now almost accomplished (i.e.- he must be executed). The US must now find a way to gracefully withdraw. To just cut and run (like Vietnam) would not be a suitable ending to this venture. As previously noted, it would embolden every tin pot dictator world wide, North Korea and Iran particularly. Perhaps an electoral referendum type of split could be supervised. However, these people have demonstrated little grasp of electoral concepts. But the US (and the UK) cannot just walk away.

Afghanistan and Pakistan are larger problems that have sunk beneath the radar. The Taliban are back and gaining strength. Partly because Wahabbi mercenaries, including Al-Queda types, are being driven out of Iraq. But also partly because the religious schools in Pakistan continue to churn out neophyte terrorists. Can you imagine an extremist Islamic regime in Pakistan, with an A-bomb arsenal? The 'real' war on terror is there, not Iraq which is in the middle of a civil war, like it or not.

Thermo (nuclear?),

I hate to burst your bubble, but Osama bin Laden thinks the center of the fight is Baghdad. That is where the 12th Iman guy and/or Caliph is supposed to rule from. Do you listen to the terrorist? It is very clear that Baghdad is the place to be (GW is right), NOT in the stans. The Sharia law forbids democracy, not to mention all other religions and laws. Understand bin Laden.

Here is a great solution...pull the plug on oil (see below how) and have GW read the Quaran on TV with commentary from an Iman type, a catholic bishop, born-again, Hindu, Atheist, Mormon, etc., so that everybody knows exactly what the terrorist believe and other perspectives and other religions... and may the market of ideas prevail. GW could rotate out guests and we can test drive each religion relative to Islam. If the world wants Islam, then so be it. We need people to actually read the Quaran and Hadith. I have. I now understand bin Laden's point of view and why he does what he does. Cristal clear...

What also needs to happen is that all these contries must allow free practice of religion or we are totally wasting our time (root cause factor), starting with Saudi Arabia where the terrorist get their funding. If you want to send the USA junk from China...free practice of religion...want to have Islam in the USA or Europe (mostly funded by Wahabi sect)...free practice in ALL "islamic" countries... and so on. You know it is fair a balanced when the Mormons and JWs come a knocking...all across the arab world. Serious! As the Quaran says (actually abdocates, but...) "there is no compulsion in religion." The Mormon Prophet Brigham Young INVITED all religions to Salt Lake City in the 1850's, including Islam, unlike all Islamic countries. Why? Young said it was the sign of a weak religion not to have other competing religions freely able to convert your flock without penalty of any kind. When the Islamic world understands what Young understood and acts, we will see light at the end of the terrorist tunnel, and not before. Nobody in USA government is pushing what need to happen.

The real story...Actually what also needs to happen is to make the BSFC curve lower and flatter. I can see within 15 years needing only 20-30% of the oil we now need (plastics and petro based products) and being able to get it from bio this or that. Did you notice how SUV sales rose 40% after gas prices came down? The right engine does not care about weight so much. Momentum can be conserved with the right engine. That is what I do know.

What I don't know is how this all has anything to do with the climate hoax know as "global warming." I thought there was not supposed to be "cumpulsion in religion." It seems this new religion on the block, global warming, is State driven and funded. Maybe the USA State department needs to listen to Young as well...and stop forcing their opinion on us all. May peace be unto you.

Hi fellows,

I was reading the bullshit your wiritting about the US presence in Iraque and other nations, it amazes me how you americans find ways to justify your big nose sniffing into somebody else's bussiness. Fact:

1) The US invaded iraqui to rob the petroleum there, every other people in the world are tired of knowing it but Americans....

2) They did it against the world reazoning and using lies as justification.

3) In the process they assassinated hundreds of thoussands of innocent civilians (women and defenseless children)

4) Now that the situation is out of control, they want to put the blame on the puppet government they have forced dow the iraquies througth, including trying to wash their dirty hands from the execution of Saddan.

5) When are you going to understang that your presence on the other countries are not welcome, and that we the rest of the world prefer to leave in peace.

6) If want to do any good, get the money your are robbing from the iraquies and help the poor people of Africa insted of giving it to your rich fat cotton producers to allow them to keep the misery in the same African countries.

7) To finish up a little advice for free from a recent tourist that visited you fellows not long ago! You people should stop believing in your governement's lies thinking they are doing it for all americans, take the food you eat:

Almost all of it is made of GMO or some other little monsters you're creating in the laboratories of the big agribussiness companies you have! the result is: americans are quickly being tranformed in big fat ugly monsters who eat thenselves to death. As a matter of fact I have never seen so much fat people together (they where the biggest human beings I have ever seen) in my life as when I entered a restaurant in White plains, Ny.

Don't take it a any insult but somebody got to tell you the truth about yourselves/

Have a nice day...from your best Brasilian friend

I thought this was a Climate Initiatives Predicted to Fail not a soap box issue

My recent experience with the Department of Energy's Fossil Fuel Laboratory, gives truth to the statement from Datamonitor, "not to expect best courses of action to be resolved any time soon." I presented New technology to the D.O.E. for review that would improve Energy Saving and operational Cost Savings for users of Steam Energy processes. D.O.E. answered "The Combustion Program has not been funded for the FY 07 budget and there is no work anticipated in this area. Currently, there is also no programmatic interest in this particular technology." For our D.O.E, which is resposibile for Conservation and best use of our limmited Fossil Fuels to have such attitude shows all of us why nothing will be resolved soon, as they have no Money Or Interest to do anything . The E.P A. attitude is we want mass produced Energy saving Items on the shelf that costs dollars and saves pennies. DonnieH

Guest,

At least they will not be wasting it giving it to their "friends" to do "research" on somthing that won't work.

That is not to say that a 60% efficient zero emmision (only h2o and co2) IC engine is not possible, it just won't come from a government lab.

Sounds like there is no interest because the politics of global warming is now stretching its lips firmly around the tit of Uncle Sam to suck the long and deep suck of sucker's suck. Yum yum.

When my engine comes to being and gets 100-250 mpg, I will be asking for all the refunds to taxpayers of "friend" funded research, now known as "partnerships" and the resignation of all DOE personel.

Re: "Climate Initiatives Predicted to Fail" I appreciate your reply, not to many people take the the time to reply to others, which I think is important. I have read many of your posted comments to others and hope you continue doing them.The Electronic Condensate Controller has just completed 5 continous months (24/7) of operation with no reports of any operational issues. This first commerical installation of the ECC has met all objectives it was required to do when it was installed as far as Safety, Product Quality, Engery Savings, plus no recorded downtime. Both the Management and operating personel are pleased with the improved efficiency of the old equiptment, with increased preformance and reliability, compared to how the old condensate operating equipment was always causing safety issues, and poor equiptment operations that required a lot of operator's time unplugging and cleaning up the mess. CR4 is the best system I have found using the internet, for people like myself, to be able disscuss and inform other's of our ideas, or experences that might be of interest. I am continuing my goal of Conserving thur Efficiency. DonnieH