Banning the Bulb?

LEDs will kill off the new trend to compact fluorescents, and start a new trend to permanent light fixtures with no screw in/out sockets as a properly designed LED lamp will have a life in excess of 100,000 hours, which is almost 30 years of 10 hours/day.

Why put in a socket you use once in 30 years?

Just when I was getting used to compact fluorescents.

LEDs are better seen than to see with. But some will continue to profit on the notion that Consumers are too stupid to know the difference, and easily duped by any marketing claim. So go ahead and mandate them for what they've long been used for: indicators--that is: indicators such as vehicle tail, stop, directionals; traffic lights; public transit and other signs; emergency flashers such as bubble gum lights; and so on. At the same time, fluorescents--even incandescents--are here to stay. Eventually the do-gooders for nothing (and battery sellers) will just have to get used to it.

I think that you will find that over the next couple of years, LEDs will really "bloom"- I have some 3 watt warm white LEDs that are astoundingly good at lighting an area for very little running cost!!

CFLs are just getting better and better, though the ones with the best life need a short warm up, I mix them with a couple of (very cheap) Multi LED lamps in the bathroom for example, so that you can see immediately with the LEDs, 4 seconds later the CFLs take over and you have proper coverage. It was a way to use up some low power LEDs I bought a few years ago.

CFLs without the warm up have a drastically reduced life I am reliably informed.

I'm no expert in the lighting field and I have a question concerning vehicle headlights.

I recently purchased a set of Sylvania "Cool Blue" bulbs for my 97 Dodge Ram pickup. I was told by the salesperson that they would give that brilliant blue look that appear in many of the high end cars; Lexus, BMW, etc. That's the effect I was looking for but I was sadly disappointed as the new bulbs looked just like the old ones.

Are these new brilliant "blue" headlights (in high end cars) LED or not? I'm really curious about this. Should I go back to the salesperson and tell them they were wrong and were just trying to make a sale?

Does anyone know if the brilliant "blue" lighting is available for older vehicles such as mine?

-John

some new cars have them, more have running lights.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=led+%2B%22car+headlights%22

Firstly, if the dye in the glass was strong enough to really give that "Xenon" look that you appear to be searching for, there would be so little light left you would barely see the road!!!

You were conned, big time, but I doubt if you will get your money back, but do try!!!

Osram and Phillips are the only ones that I know of directly that sell "Legal" bulbs that will actually illuminate the road better (but without any Blue tinge!!).....they cost over €20 each here in Europe....they are the best.

If you want Xenon, some companies make conversion kits for certain cars, just make sure that they have certification for usage where you are.....its usually stamped(?) or etched into the glass somewhere, E1 etc.. being one of the European certification areas.

I do not know where you live exactly....but the kits are not cheap, from memory about €250 a side........something like $300 a side........but that is the ONLY way that really works......if the car is old, simply forget it and buy good bulbs......

Wow! I thought I was fairly knowledgeable in the lighting field, but Donald has sent me back to first grade. Thanks for all the information. Please keep us informed. As for your Dodge. You have plastic composite headlamps on there that have a few problems.

1. The lens degrades over time and becomes hazy. There are plastic polishes that will bring back the clarity, but eventually the inside will also degrade and can not be accessed to polish.
2. The light shaping is done with the inner surface of the lens, not the reflector as current designs do. This limits the light more.
3. The fact that the reflector is made of plastic limits what your choices are for higher wattage. The additional light will create more heat, and melt the reflector.

The bulbs that you purchased have very little visible difference in how the driver is able to perceive objects at night. Especially if your lenses have clouded limiting light output. There are replacement light bulbs that have higher wattage, have darker blue tint over the bulb, and higher wattage bulbs with the darker tint on the bulbs. I am fortunate in that the fleet I am maintaining are off road fire trucks, and care little for DOT requirements. I have Converted all of these trucks from sealed beams to composite replacements so that I can change the lighting part of the bulb as needed. The first conversions were made by Cibie. Them I moved to Hella. These reflectors seemed to resist degrading better than the Cibie. Recently I have been converting to Truck-Light conversions. These lamps have clear lenses, with the reflector now shaping the light beam. Additionally they are all glass and metal, unlike some of the cheaper made conversions that are mow on the US market that use plastic lenses and reflectors. I have been using 80/100 watt bulbs with a dark blue coating. The results are good but the life is not what I would like. A year out of a bulb is about normal life. I also have the luxury of having heavy gauge wiring to the headlights. I resisted the blue bulbs for years because I "knew" there would be less light having to pass through the dark blue tint. What I did not know was that our eyes seem to prefer the light with the blue tint. If you light up an object at night with the same lamp in the same location and change only the blue tint on the bulb, the object will be easier to view with the blue light.

The answer for your Dodge is complex. The best that I could recommend is High Intensity Discharge conversions. The price of these conversion kits is dropping by the hour on the internet. Prices are now hovering near $150 per side. If you combine these with GOOD factory lamps, you will be pleased with the results. If you have to replace your headlamps, conceder aftermarket headlight conversions. There are replacement lamps that feature clear lenses with fluted reflectors, and there are "projector" headlamp conversions that use the thick magnifying glass. Either of these should be better than the factory lamps. The problem with aftermarket lamps is the quality control. If you can't hold them before you buy them, make sure of your return options. One other option would be later year Dodges that went to clear lenses, and fluted reflectors. If you don't want to go to the cost of HID, your next step below that would be 80/100 watt b dark blue replacement bulbs in the same choices for headlamp housings. Even if you just purchase the same55/60 watt dark blue bulbs, you will see an improvement.

Another improvement to the lighting would be headlight harnesses. Theas are also available aftermarket. They plug into your old headlight harness at one of the bulbs, and are powered directly from the battery. These cut down on voltage drop, and extent the life of your headlight and dimmer switches. why don't you buy a pair of dark blue replacement bulbs from a local store and try them. Then if you want more light, you will be in a better position to make the next decisions. There are lots of choices out there even HID requires choices. Brighter light verses different tints of color. I hope I have been of some help to you. If I can answer any questions please let me know. Good luck.

Hi Bob,

Excellent post. I think Andy pointed me in the right direction. Without doing prior research I really was conned by the salesperson. Just a lesson learned though.

I think what I was looking for was the xenon conversion kit such as the ones described here. They are actually quite pricey @ $150+. I think I'll just stay with what I've got for the near term.

You said "The lens degrades over time and becomes hazy. There are plastic polishes that will bring back the clarity, but eventually the inside will also degrade and can not be accessed to polish." and that's a good point because I've noticed exactly that: the lenses do appear quite cloudy. I may try polishing them, but then again, maybe not.

Visibility has been good with the truck but I was just looking for an updated lighting scheme. Probably best to leave well enough alone.

Good info and thanks,

-John

I think this--"...Multi LED lamps in the bathroom for example,..." is the operative phrase; meaning that space illumination is feasible depending on the space to be illuminated...generally, the smaller the better. So it seems to me that if LED as illumination were to have much chance of supplanting bulb-types, a cultural shift (especially in the U.S.) away from increasingly larger rooms would also have to occur. One instance in which LEDs might be immediately feasible would be lodging--especially in places like Japan where "rooms" can be incredibly tiny. If trains and Pullmans make a comeback due to environmental, fuel efficiency, and ATC-capacity limitations, there's another application for LED space lighting. (Again, a cultural shift-back goes hand in hand.) I would venture to say that there will always be applications--primarily large spaces needing to be illuminated at low cost and outdoor space and path illumination (think: "true" flashlights/torches)--where LEDs will have significant limitations, other than for the light source itself to be highly visible. Consider, for example, a cop whose flashlight/torch "club" was LED. Instead of illuminating, and also bedazzling/blinding, a potential wrong do-er, the cop would (now) only be dimly illuminating..., but also illuminating (indicating) him/her self...as a target--ala "three on a match." So LED innovations have their place, but are probably not a panacea as some would hope. So people should not fall for all of the illumination claims made for LED, but instead demand innovations that give equivalent or better service than conventional lighting devices.

The new LED flashlights are so dazzling, you cannot stare at the LED!!!

Where have you been the last 2 years!!!!! LEDs are marching on and getting better and better almost daily!!I have some really potent 3 watt LEDs upstairs in my house....guessing, about equivalent in light output to a 40watt Halogen (approximately!)

"The new LED flashlights are so dazzling, you cannot stare at the LED!!!"

You cannot stare--up close--at a lens-ed, i.e., focused, LED. Unless you are sufficiently distanced from same: something possible in larger, or exterior, spaces (where illumination is degraded), but not small interior spaces (where LED-sourced illumination is more feasible).

"I have some really potent 3 watt LEDs upstairs in my house....guessing, about equivalent in light output to a 40watt Halogen (approximately!)"

Again, an artifice, based on focusing to increase intensity and coherency. Given enough such 3-watt-ers, and the design to accommodate in room or fixtures, no doubt you might have attained a (dispersed) room illumination to replace one or a few 75-to-100 Watt-ers. But the question is, would that always be practical or economically feasible?

"Where have you been the last 2 years!!!!! LEDs are marching on and getting better and better almost daily!!"

Where I have not been the last over 25 years is lost in contemplation, wondering why, when some future day arrives when there's a perceived (a mass publicized) marketing need, the "improvements" in LED &or LED-focusing, plastic lenses would not long-since already have been discovered and perfected. Where I have been those two years, for one, is contemplating how LED "innovation" has in large measure accomplished the same purpose--but with diminished effectiveness and utility--as conventional bulbs/tubes of all kinds: the purpose of selling as many battery cells--including un-needed cells--as possible. (In this sense, LED innovation has been much like a major portion of toy "innovation.")

The point of all this, as with my original post, is that the expectation (by consumers, and given that a need has always existed) that suddenly a mature innovation (years ago) can suddenly be re-perfected to the point of solving all problems--lighting all spaces--is based largely on inventors'/marketers' reliance on enough consumers being easily duped--even if such deceits are unknowing or unintended!!! While it is true that almost every perceived new innovation often manifests first as a proliferation of cleverly (and deceptively) packaged gadgets and gimmicks--and further true that such "experimentation by consumption" (where the price of failure is borne by hapless "consumer subjects" as opposed to producers)--I simply cannot see why LED's would not have long since supplanted existing forms of space lighting if it was merely a matter of innovating to fulfill a need. I believe people will have to be content with LEDs that, rather than replace, will only supplement other forms of lighting.

One drawback to this is that the lighting designers' job will become more difficult and more expensive--attempting to strike a balance between economic and environment-/resource-preserving lighting and the need for effective illumination. That, and the fact that the end user might have to lower or change expectations of what constitutes "good" space lighting at an acceptable price.

All that aside, and considering that much of the "improvement" of LED lighting (as indicator or illuminator) involves not the LED but its focusing containment device, perhaps it's the containment devise (the globe) that could be satisfactorily improved. ...improved to the point of having, not a handful but, hundreds, if not thousands, of focusers--to the point of casting enough near-coherent beams to simulate the uniform, omnidirectional flux of an incandescent or fluorescent--and this without any beam impinging unacceptably on any retina. If that could be done, possibly with the aid of nanotechnology, therein might lie the potential for an all purpose LED light bulb (meaning: it fits in standard sockets and fixtures) that could replace now-conventional bulbs and tubes. If such a bulb already exists, I have not seen it yet.

Remember, filament bulbs have been developed and are still developing for well over 100 years. They are now in decline, but are still a very low cost high intensity light, one that we are used to.

Colored leds arranged in triads to mimic natural light awaited the blue LED. Sadly the blue LED is costly, but it does work and prices are falling.

Another way to get white light is via fluorescence and most white LEDs emit by this process. At the same time the fluorescent material could be adjusted to give any light color you need. So if you look at these you will see a wide range if hues from these lights.

a look at this magazine will give you some insights into where we are now and where we are going.

It is a very excisint gime.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/4/8/4

You seem very Bitter, God knows why.......

Let me put it another way, incandescents use about 95% of their energy in heating and only about 5% for lighting. halogen are about 1% better in this respect.....not worth worrying about!

CFLs are somewhere about 5x more efficient than incandescents and can provide more light from a still relatively small source similar to LEDs (at least at this time, though there will be a car on the market next year with LED headlights I have read....!).

LEDs are still being developed, the end is not in sight, but it is true to say that you must plan where you are going to use them with a bit more care than with say incandescents to get the best from them....just simple replacement will probably NOT achieve anything really worthwhile....

Energy is NEVER going to be cheaper than it is today and before the next 10 years have gone by, LED production costs will still be (hopefully!) in a slow spiral down and the amortisation of the LEDs will be sooner and sooner......less energy used, = less Fossil fuel CO2 in the atmosphere, which can only be better for all living on this earth!!!

You also have a better chance with say wind energy or other solar energy sources to be able to charge up batteries and to light your house with LEDs using such energy than either incandescents or even CFLs (as the CFLs generally, but not always, need a higher voltage.....camping versions are already made for 12V) .

What CCFLs need in terms of power I do not know as I am not fully informed about this form of lighting at this time.....(Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lights)

I hope that these few points serve to get you out of your gloom at Christmas......

"and this without any beam impinging unacceptably on any retina. If that could be done, possibly with the aid of nanotechnology, therein might lie the potential for an all purpose LED light bulb (meaning: it fits in standard sockets and fixtures) that could replace now-conventional bulbs and tubes. If such a bulb already exists, I have not seen it yet. "

where have you been??

The woods are alive...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=LED+%2Bretrofit&btnG=Google+Search

cars are easier as they have a low DC voltage to start with.

120/240 must have a lossy voltage dropper or lots of series LEDS and reverse emf protections/preventions...or it must have an AC to DC downconverter built into the bulb.

As you can see all of the above work.

in the long run, who needs sockets? A properly designed LED lamp can be permanently built in.

LED's will definitely be the future but they are not there yet. They are good replacements for the halogen MR accent lighting. These are the little bulbs that are commonly recessed in the ceiling or used as spots. My experience as an energy engineer is that they are only cost effective as accent lighting and not on the wall spots.

A recent project I was working on with a large pharmecuetical company was retrofitting their high pressure sodium fixtures in a 7 level parking garage. We first looked at fixtures with two 42 watt CFLs at about $250/fixt. We found some LED fixtures made for parking garages that were $700/fixt. The incremental cost difference would have taken 12 years to payback.

They are just too expensive for many applications.

Does that pay back speak to energy used only? Or does it factor in the fewer ladder jobs needed to change the bulbs every year or?

Yes...good point. That 12 year payback was stirctly on energy. CFL's can be found with an average life of 15,000 hours. So, we would be looking at changing them about every two years. Without doing any calculations maintenance might cut the payback to 4 or 6 years.

I beleive we will get there but it's just not quite there yet.

CFL's can be found with an average life of 15,000 hours.

I beg to differ with you on that... CCFL maybe, but we have sold literally 100,000's of every imaginable brand of CFL, (they are ALL made in China anyway), and we have NEVER seen anywhere near that life, Much less an average of 15,000 hours...

You cannot believe the advertising claims..

CFL's have an average life of 8,000 hours, with most of the cheap ones like Wal Mart sells lasting only 6,000 hours..

If I were you, I would be asking for a two year warranty on that CFL, and then the truth may come out as to the "real" life of those.

Donald

The warranty is also worthless. They want you to mail back the dead bulb plus $4.95 to mail you a new one. Since this exceeds the cost of a new bulb, it is a fraudulent warranty...a class action could be launched.

Most cheap bubs fail within 6 months, some sooner.

Brand names last longer.

LED will dominate this market in about 1-2 years.

Right On aurizon, and what about that scam of all scams, selling incandescent light bulbs that are guaranteed for LIFE??

For 9.95 each for a .25 bulb.. and YOU have to pay the freight to ship the new one.. haha

I would also do that... Heck, I would give a ten lifetime guarantee if you would pay me 9.95 for a .25 cent bulb, and then pay 4-5 bucks for the freight everytime the bulb burned out.. That's a better interest rate than the loan sharks get!

Donald

Just don't buy a lifetime bulb from the local mafia, if the bulb fails...

Spencer,

You should consider the Electrodeless Lamps, as they produce a very nice, VERY long lasting light source. These can be retrofitted in some cases, other cases, you can buy the whole fixture.

Later, if and when we do a lighting Blog, we will detail all the comparisons in all lighting sources.

Donald

I have recently purchased a small flashlight with a 10 watt LED which is the brightest light ever owned, Fantastic. powered by two 124A Lithium batteries. Supplier had a 12 watt version also available. Source was all-battery.com in CA

LEDs are showing up on everything from Christmas trees to home, business, and municipal decorations. It's yet another example of the continuing growth of solid state lighting. LED Lighting Fixtures, which sells an LED fixture for home and commercial lighting, logged $1 million in orders during the product's first 90 days of availability. Taiwan's Bureau of Energy (BoE) will begin swapping out incandescent bulbs for LEDs in traffic, architectural, landscape, and secondary-road street lighting next year. The BoE plan calls for prohibiting production of incandescent bulbs by 2010 and banning them entirely by 2012.

aurizon
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 1 #1
Re: Banning the Bulb?
12/22/2007 11:13 PM
LEDs will kill off the new trend to compact fluorescents, and start a new trend to permanent light fixtures with no screw in/out sockets as a properly designed LED lamp will have a life in excess of 100,000 hours, which is almost 30 years of 10 hours/day.

Why put in a socket you use once in 30 years?

The 100,000 hour LED Bulb?, Lamp? Is such a myth.. Don't get me wrong, all of us who Sell LED products all profit from this myth, and I DO appreciate it!

However, where that began, was when LED was strictly used for indicator light, and usually it was Red, and Usually it was a (single) LED. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if someone could to an LED that had been burning 200,000 hours under these room temperature conditions.

Where the problem with LED begins, is when people put them all together, and don't consider many other factors..

Heat is the biggest enemy of LED, as well as the enemy of anything electrical/electronic...

Many of you may remember the problem we had with a certain 60 LED bulb that was encased in plastic, including a plastic multi faceted bubble cover intended to diffuse, and possibly split the led beams.

This bulb got So hot, that it would fail in less than two months, while being used a maximum of 8-10 hours a day.

Simply removing the multi faceted lens, caused this 60 Led lamp to burn brightly for so far, over 1 year, no problems.

This simple test proves at least in this application that heat is the main problem of short Led Life.

Now, we have the latest generation for general lighting applications, High Power LED..

Has anyone noticed all the heat sink ribs built into these bulbs?... That should tell you something..

Also, the factories on these High Power LED units are claiming anywhere from 50,000 hours, down to only 20,000 hours depending on the honesty on the factory.

Guest #2
Re: Banning the Bulb?
12/23/2007 4:30 AM
LEDs are better seen than to see with. I agree with that,if you don't use the proper LED lamp to give sufficient illumination for the task at hand.

However,

I have done quite a bit of LED lighting for others, (usually just accent, or advertising, etc) but when I started replacing the lighting in my home, then I had the challenge to prove to myself that LED was a good choice for practical task lighting..

Recently, I have replaced 4 par 20 , 50 watt halogen lamps on my kitchen counter with 4 JDR medium base full color spectrum, (5,000K), 3/1 watt high power LED bulbs.

Granted, they are Not as bright as the 50 watt halogen bulbs, however, because the visual acuity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity

is better, and color distinction is perfect, you can actually see better by it.

Also, under my counters I also installed my biggest seller, the little PVC/LED flexible strip lighting.

This produces a most perfect soft, working light for most kitchen tasks, (especially midnight snacks), and the whole kitchen lighting only cost pennies per day to operate!

But some will continue to profit on the notion that Consumers are too stupid to know the difference, and easily duped by any marketing claim. So go ahead and mandate them for what they've long been used for: indicators--that is: indicators such as vehicle tail, stop, directionals; traffic lights; public transit and other signs; emergency flashers such as bubble gum lights; and so on. At the same time, fluorescents--even incandescents--are here to stay. Eventually the do-gooders for nothing (and battery sellers) will just have to get used to it.

I'm sure that incandescents and fluorescents are here to stay as well, and because I just designed a New Incandescent dimmer, (with the help of you great brilliant minded friends on CR4 site) it's a given that I believe that.

But with this train of thought, it's like saying that Mercury vapors, (the first majorly used utility yard light offered by the power companies), are "here to stay".

Yes, mercury vapor security lights? are here to stay, even if after 4-5 years you can't even read a newspaper directly under that faint Green glow.. lol and unmanaged Metal Halide lamps just get do dim, that you can look directly at a 400 watt bulb, and it doesn't even hurt your eyes! The "Super Metal Halides will give you a faint pink shade, and keep on burning for years after they become totally unproductive, "Lumen per watt ratio".

Andy Germany
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 2886
Good Answers: 5 #3
In reply to #2
Re: Banning the Bulb?
12/23/2007 8:59 AM
I think that you will find that over the next couple of years, LEDs will really "bloom"- I have some 3 watt warm white LEDs that are astoundingly good at lighting an area for very little running cost!! Andy, you are Right on!

CFLs are just getting better and better, though the ones with the best life need a short warm up, I mix them with a couple of (very cheap) Multi LED lamps in the bathroom for example, so that you can see immediately with the LEDs, 4 seconds later the CFLs take over and you have proper coverage. It was a way to use up some low power LEDs I bought a few years ago.

CFLs without the warm up have a drastically reduced life I am reliably informed.

The reason these have short life, is because they have electronic ballast integral, and they are driven brightly! The old style is magnetic, with core and coil transformer, and old style capacitor start, tube gas warm up fluorescent technology.

Andy, you really need to know about this latest application, and technology of CCFL (Cold Cathode Fluorescent lighting)

While not new technology, we are selling thousands and thousands of a certain brand CCFL, in the 8 watt dimming style, we are soon to selling hundreds of thousands of the NEW, 18 watt BL, (Ballast Less), (equaL to A 90 Watt incandescent bulb), CCFL lighting system.

This technolgy uses remote controller/dimmer, and thereby removes the heat of the spiral tube, away from the sensitive electronics of the ballast/controller.

This system allows for the larger wattage, as well as greatly improves the longevity of these new style lamps from 18,000 hours, all the way up to approx. 30,000 hours while giving the user total intensity control!

Just wanted to share these tidbits...

Donald

badly designed LED lamps do indeed fail early from heating. Heat gradually causes migration and ruins them.

properly designed they will last.

I also notice that many badly designed fluorescents die young too.

Actually, even incandescents last longer when the run relatively cool.......if the globe is up and the cooling is bad, they can overheat and fail within a few days of being switched on!!!

Donald, great post and many thanks, you appear to have the best "insight" of us all in the modern lighting area, so I must name you our (mine at least!) "Lighting Guru" !! I hope you do not object!!

I have a feeling that we should have a Blog from you, running permanently, with regard to lighting, what do you say to that? Shall I ask Moose, or will you contact him directly?

What do the rest of you think?

Please give more detail/facts about CCFLs when you have time, thanks.

"I have a feeling that we should have a Blog from you, running permanently, with regard to lighting, what do you say to that? Shall I ask Moose, or will you contact him directly?

What do the rest of you think?"

A blog on lighting similar to Jorrie's Cosmology blog? What a cool idea. I'm all for it!

-John

I'll email Moose after Christmas....

Hey there Andy, and Johnjohn,

Monthly Blog?, sounds good, I do appreciate the vote of confidence from you guys.

If this would help all us, I would be honored to do this, and just like Fox News, I will try to be "Fair and Balanced", and give credit where credit is due.

We are OEM with Philips, G.E. and Osram Sylvania, and I'm sure the marketing/Engineering dept of these Giants would be more than happy to furnish us with all their up-to-date info on new products, and specs on all of their products..

So, where do we go from here? if there is anything to set this up, or someone to speak to, please advise..

Thanks Guys,

I love this site.

Don Campbell

Campbell Lighting/Everything LED

Count me in.

I spent 2 years as a lighting tech for the entertainment industry and try to keep my nose in a bit.

"and try to keep my nose in a bit."

Not too close to the incandescence I hope.

"and try to keep my nose in a bit."

Not too close to the incandescence I hope.

Right on my friend, Just tonight, after the Family left from our Christmas Gift giving,

eating, etc., I brought in the Big ladder to replace those 50 watt halogens in the

vaulted ceiling... Dang, I need to make an "Ove Glove"

commercial, as it took like 15 minutes for those to cool enough to replace them with

our little 1X3 watt High Power, Full Color spectrum, Cree Chip LED Lamps/Bulbs. I

really like these little JDR, 120v high power LED, and we are selling many of them.

Donald

Years ago the band Mötley Crue played at the old Austin Music Hall. We had the lights for the event. The band was by this time coming off a Mega-star status but still raucously popular. Any way, the Hall is a small venue allowing maybe 1500 with low ceilings. Between the 25' ceilings and the 4.5' stage we hung 140,000 watts of light.

ACL (aircraft landing lights), crowd banks, par 64's and the likes. Lot's of heat. The band members kept looking up trying to find a place where they weren't being roasted on stage. It was a great time.

cr3

lots of Chinese sources for these JDR and other bulbs.

As others have said, heat = the enemy and a badly designed cluster will overheat the LEDs and the heat accelerated atomic migration(diffusion) of dopant will shorten the life drastically

http://www.gdled.com/GU10.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jdr+%2Bled+%2Bchina&btnG=Google+Search

Thanks aurizon for that link... I know that company.. as My full Time Employee lives in Shenzhen....

My biggest challenge has been to find the REAL manufactures of these products.

The Chinese are shrewd people, and will hang a freshly printed banner on the building saying whatever company, (Trader), has sold you the bill of goods..

Then the challenge is to prove, that they have indeed placed the American Made Cree high quality chips in these LED Bulbs..

The price will eventually come down when the majors start producing these lamps.

Later...

Donald

cree would be wise to list their 'partners' who use their chips, or to keep that private, operate a confirmation process whereby you can ask them if XYZ in Shenshen is a buyer?

I used to have an agent in Taiwan for this purpose in computer products in the 80's, and what you say is very true.

See here: www.elecosn.com

Here are dimmable LED Bulb, and LED incandescent bulb

LEDs are good for business, but.......please remember the best lighting for theater is achieved by using incandescent light bulbs, and we use a lot.

I will need a lot on convincing be able to replace them with led lighting.

I went to a ZZ Top show last week, and thought that they were using 8 movable lights that I thought might have been LED. They appeared to be shorter in length than the other spots. They changed color very quickly, and all exactly the same time. The lenses appeared to be about 7to 8 inches across. These were only effects lighting, not the lights used to light the band, but they seemed different than the remainder of the lights. Could this be the start of LED usage for stage use?

LED are used ever more frequently in showlighting. I use them too. They have the advantage of their size and power consumption. Ledlights do cost more for what they do. They are decorative, but my point is, you cannot think to ban incandescent lights. It would be taking away the principle tools of lighting. I find with the LED hype it is easy to condem the rest, and it is a business strategy at the end of the day.

It reminds me of a "posse hanging" type of justice.

The bans I have heard about are in regards to A-shaped incandescents, typical household lamps. The specialty lamps such as theatre lighting are not included in the legeslation I have heard about.

Thank you Spencer, for your reassuring comment.

This is a common sense solution about light bulbs.

I immediately thought that someone wanted to ban all tungsten and halogen types!

I guess I will have to find myself a more modern avatar now.

or,

Those lights are 'intelligent lights' often called cyber lights or morph (morpheus) for the manufacturer. They are computer programmable and servo operated. There is/used to be a manufacturer here (Austin)called High End Systems.

The bulb used is an arc bulb. So it has a greater intensity than the standard stage light such as the 64's (par 64) which are 1000W incandescent bulbs (a par 32 is 500W).

So a standard light package ordered might be something like: 120,000W with 2 crowd banks/ACL's (aircraft landing lights) and 10 cybers on 3' box truss at 30'V (vertical or height)

The arc bulbs can be halogen or Xenon or neon or any number of others usually on a tungsten filament.

The use of servos not only moves the lights themselves but may also employ a rotary gobo. The gobo is a stencil that allows light to be cast in pattern. A corporate event might have the company logo cut as a gobo and projected behind a speaker or a series of logos/gobo's can be rolled through for an event.

The standard package will have the lights focused and 'gel'-ed ( a thin colored sheet of film for effect) to create color 'scenes'. In film as in stage theater as well as concerts lighting often is of the utmost importance. Lighting has tremendous effect and cannot be overstated for its power to create emotion.

For example Pavaratti's LD (lighting director) had very little for scene change employing on 4 gels on 110,000W package. But they had every imaginable device for sound. In comparison, the band Jackal Wanted a really 'hot' set to compliment their metal sound. (there is a joke in music that only the lighting guys can 'turn the suck down' in reference to bands that sound like crap but that we can make 'look' like rockstars) Black Sabbath and Garth Brooks and others have very precise detailed and expensive packages that really make a music show more of a music event that will not soon be forgotten by ticket buyers.

Oh..okay. Sorry. It seems that I have drifted down memory lane. What was the question?

cr3

I'm impressed! Sounds like you really know performer/stage lighting CR3. Good info.

-John

LEDs are good for business, but.......please remember the best lighting for theater is achieved by using incandescent light bulbs, and we use a lot.

Steve, I was sitting in the theater the other day to see that boring movie I am legand, when I had the thought, wonder what wattage these side lamps are, as obviously they use a dimmer with them

How many light bulbs do you use a year?, and what wattage are they?

Our New Cold Cathode, Fluorescent Lamps will eventually replace 100 watt, 150, watt, and 200 watt incandescent bulbs.

While they will be a little pricey compared to the Spiral CFL, you now have the benefit of a fully dimmable, remote lamp which doesn't even need UL listing because there is nothing in the tube but anode and cathode, NO ballast.

They also work just exactly like the incandescent bulbs, fully dimmable, 2,700-3,000 K

So, with just one controller/dimmer box you can control and dim up to 30 pcs 18 watt CCFL's on 120v. If you had a dedicated circuit, and just ONE person changing the bulbs out, you could use 220v, and place 50 bulbs on one circuit.

The beauty of this system is, Obviously energy saving, 18 vs 90, longevity, with no electronic ballast inside the lamp, these tubes will run cooler, and should last 30,000 hours instead of 750-2,000 hours max on Incandescent, or 6-8,000 hours on CFL's

This is a brand new product, and the technolgy is not new, just the application..

Donald

I will need a lot on convincing be able to replace them with led lighting.

How many light bulbs do you use a year?, and what wattage are they?

My last tour I used

6, Osram HTI 400 W/D3 (Martin Mac 550)

12, Philips 575/2 MSR or MSD 575 da 575W with GX 9,5 lamp bases. (Coemar Pamorama)

6 30 watt RGB LED units (Coemar)

4 90 watt RGB LED units (James Thomas Engineering)

36 Par 64 CP61 (1000W)

12 750W HPL — compact tungsten filament lamp (Source 4 ETC)

4 2000W G22 base (side lamps).

In 6 months of tour I changed

2, HTI that were DOA from other work

2 MSD lamps that were mechanicaly broke in two

4 Par 64 CP61 (that was because we had a good batch from GE)

3 750W HPLs they are delicate.

I considered that par for the course.

Obviously we didn't burn any LEDs.

CCFLs would not be good for this particular job.

In a year I would comsume on average about 3/4 times this amount in theatre, but it is a acceptable running cost for our sector.

Steve, Very impressive Link..

Congratulations on a very impressive Career!

Donald

You are running on par to my experiences.

There are "good and bad" places to use the LEDs we currently have available to us. Good places should include every major intersection with traffic lights in the US. Bad would be on the front of a snowplow in the mid west. What we all are forgetting here is common sense.

We have a habit in the US of not thinking too closely about the future. For example we are driving cars and trucks with Hemi's, low gas consumption and of course, having a Hummer to bring the kids to school is not the wisest idea either. I live in Massachusetts and two days after the most recent storm, I saw several houses with a "clean" roof. These tend to be the same people who wonder why their energy bills are so expensive. In 2006 and 2007 there was a tax incentive to install energy savings into your home. Why it expires today is beyond me but that's the governments decision. Which of course brings me to LED, CFL and all that stuff.

There are several places in your home right now that would benefit from LED lighting. Take the undercabinet lighting option from our company. It's not cheap compared to those halogens but you don't have to replace it every six months. I have LED lighting in some parts of my home and CFLs in others. Admittedly I still have some high wattage incandescents in some of the rooms but these are the lamps which are only turned on when I am looking for something small on the floor. My living room uses a table lamp with CFL, purely for illumination of the area so you don't trip in complete darkness.

So in conclusion, LEDs are here to stay, they are not replacing all lighting anytime soon but there will be a larger % of the illumination market garnered every few years by LEDs.

I have only to agree with you about the LED growth, and the need for common sense.

I think since their invention (LEDs) and short time they have been around, more LEDs have been made (and sold) than all the conventional bulbs put together in their 100years or so existence. Just for that they should cost less, so someone is making a fortune on this wavefront.

Apart from that, a nice way of saving energy is to download a video of a candle flame on to your video telephone, so that when you go to a concert, in a romantic song you can wave your telephone around and not burn up a BIC load of lighter fuel and the consequential amount of oxygen! Happy 2008.

Yes, Waidesworld, I agree with you, I too have also discovered places NOT acceptable as yet for LED Lighting. For Instance:

Where my wife puts on her makeup:

Where my wife plays with the Grandchildren: and afterwards rocks them in the incredible, backwards walking rocking chair:

On the back porch, blinding you as you approach the back door:

(Obviously I changed that, and now we have 1.5 watt 30 below zero LED weather proof PVC/LED strips under the steps, and under the deck, to illuminate the walk way.)

For general lighting anywhere: ( exception to this is the new 4' t8 LED Fluorescent looking lamps, but as of now, they are TOO expensive to be considered by the masses) (and the new street lighting mentioned below)

Now, we will list the places where LED's are acceptable:

Like you mentioned, under and over Kitchen Cabinet Lighting:

Down lighting where 50 watt halogen was used:

(Make sure 5,000 degree Kelvin LED's are used as the loss of lumen's will be compensated by the improved visual acuity of Full Color Spectrum, as opposed to 2850-3,000 degrees Kelvin!

In the high ceiling of my living room, shining directly down on a task area:

(no wasted light, and 47 watts energy saved. From 50 watt HOT halogen, to 3 watt, Cree based high power LED 5,000 K spot light, JDR.

Directly over my desk:

(One two watt, 60 led 5mm 5,000 K white bulb, plus a 1 meter PVC/LED strip consuming 1.5 watts, both sources replacing 1 pc 50 watt halogen)

Directly over our king sized bed in a track lighting fixture:

(Using 4 pieces 3 watt LED, instead of of 4 pieces 50 watt halogen. This not only reduces the heat, saves energy, but also, eliminates the Glare on our TV, as well as allows the other person to be able to fall asleep right next to you, and Your light is still on!)

Automotive Tail Lights, Some automotive head lighting, extra RED Led brake light bars, also those trailer hitch insert LED that come on when your brake lights do, and show favor to your favorite team, (as in Arkansas Razorbacks), for me. ha

Plus the LED moving small, and large signs, (if your pockets are deep)

Plus the whole City of Ann Arbor, Michigan street lights.

Trust me, in MY house, my wife is my biggest critic, also the hardest person in the world to sell anything to..

So, if she allows me to use these great new LED products, you can be sure they are doing the job correctly!

To those people who say, " Led is better to look at, than to "See" by, I would have to disagree

Donald