Does Hydrogen Hold the Key?

If only PM had proofreaders:

"But unlike oil and gas, hydrogen is not a fuel. It is a way of storing or transporting energy."

I suppose the devices in which hydrogen is used to supply electricity should be called non-fuel cells?

As far as I know, there aren't any hydrogen wells. Hydrogen has to be produced from some other naturally available source. Perhaps this is the distinction that they are trying to make.

Nor are there gasoline wells, nor alcohol wells.

Certainly I can be a pedantic twit, but right now especially, I am unusually sensitive to dumbing down of scientific content. PM is not the Journal of Science but I'd hope they could be at least close. Wondering if there was some definition of "fuel" that would exclue hydrogen I did a web search and looked through about 40 definitions, and could not find one. Hydrogen is a superb fuel in many ways (albeit hard to produce and distribute).

HI ! rcapper !

A Hydrogen well could be a volcano, if caped with a siphon the steaned water could have a large amount of hydrogen that could be piped off for other power reasons.

There are other natural sources of hydrogen just look at yellowstone there are others as well (pun included) !

goldrushnugget999

Uh... yeah. That sounds really practical. I'm sure the labor crews would be falling all over themselves to line up for a chance to die on a project like that. And then there are all those toxic and corrosive gases to deal with and the possibility that it may become significantly more or less active or even erupt. And do you know for a fact that there is gaseous hydrogen present in large quantities? I have never heard of that. If so, are there effective ways of separating it? I think I would be more inclined to vote for Buckminster Fuller's idea of building geodesic domes over our cities. Then we could invest more in mass transit and solar power and be safe when the ozone layer disappears at least until the UV kills all the plants and we starve to death. Better yet, start working on those intergalactic vehicles because our days on this rock are numbered and at the rate we're going it looks pretty grim, at least in the really big picture. Who knows, maybe we are the most advanced civilization and we could be the ones to go out and conquer another planet and steal their resources. After all, we've been practicing that method of resource management for thousands of years now.

HI ! rcapper !

As i said before YELLOWSTONE hasen't erupted in a few thousand years we may be lucky and get a few million tons of hydrogen out of it before it blows DON'T you think it is worth it?

GOLDRUSHNUGGET999

Whole kernel shelled corn is 34% hydrogen, safe, clean combustion, reduces global warming, no voc, edible fuel. Non explosive, non-hazardous, recycle, renewable annually, 98% combustion efficiency, 72 bushel heats the average US home one season, locally available from neighbor at $1.50- $6.00 / bu. Search Tennessee corn stoves www.groups.yahoo.com/group/cornstoves No energy cost less than corn energy. Cut your own free wood cost more than corn.

Foreign speaking, hydrogen is available from oil.

For being all wet, hydrogen and oxygen are available by electrolysis of water if the electricity is available.

I believe the key is to finding an efficient way to extract the hydrogen from water. I have heard many stories and there have been several movies and books about people who have developed or came close to developing an efficient way to do it and they have disappeared. We need to remember just how far the long arm of black gold can reach! I think that if enough money were spent concentrating on this goal without fear of disappearing, we would find it! Eventually, when big oil decides they need to find a new income source, it will happen.

According to recent estimates we have used about 18% of the oil available. The estimate is we have used close to 1.8 Trillion Barrels up until now. So worldwide there is estimated another 8 trillion barrels. There is 3 Trillion barrels estimated in shale oil in the Green River Area of Colorado, Utah and Wyoming and the tar sands of Canada. That is 8 times the oil in the Middle East from the beginning.

8 trillion barrels is estimated to last at the present rate of growth for 140 years. So oil is not over. Most oil until now has been taken from the Mississippi Zone some 8,300 feet down. At 15,000 feet down there is another band of oil virtually untouched. It's more expensive to develop but it's there but must be searched for, found and developed. One area known for sure is northern Venezula extending into the Carribbean Sea at great depths. There is a pool off the SW coast of Florida, West Africa, and the South China Sea each in the 300 Billion barrel area. Russia, China, other parts of Asia and Africa have not been looked at closely because of the Middle East abundance of supply.

Hydrogen used in low temp fusion furnaces would help give us a good source of energy for generating electricity. Solar, wind and geo-thermal development needs to be done as well. When the need is there the screw will turn. But big oil is a bunch of fat cats that think the public will pay so let's stick it to them.

The problem is virtually solved. Watch the news over the next few months.

HI stack !

There may be a chemical way to break down water & get out the hydrogen.

you should check it hot with a chemist he may know a way, i remember in science class in school in the 60's the teacher added a chemical to water & got hydrogen out.

good luck

goldrushnugget999

HI ! stackpoole !

I agree with you but in a oil econemy big oil is king & they will make the competition disapear one way or another, thats why if we all convert to biofuel or a non oil fuel in the same time frame and area big oil can't get us all & they would surely half to lower prices to compete or go out of business.

HI ! AGAIN !

BY THE WAY I visited my gass station on my way home from work & the station manager said gass is on it's way up tomorrow it's at $3.259 a gallon now in Connecticut, & that's for regular 87 octane where will it end?

i guess the next Holiday must be close at hand !

goldrushnugget999

"H" might be te clean fuel of the future; if,IF, we substitute H2O for one of the dirtier fuels, we have been burning in engines for a bit more than acentury. the key to smog reduction is simple, w must quit "burning fuel", and drive "internal non-combustion" engine powered vehicles. cars,ships,even airplanes!. rememberthat old skool joke,"one if by land two if by sea and three if by ekectric jet", today that last HaHa can be realized, due to advances in "Auto technology" yet, with very few,minor, changes and/or adjustments(almost "fine tuningups"). Detroit could be cranking out cars etc. with zero(0) and/or less(0-) emmissions!.. runing on "agrachem" prodced oil(my "sillyoil"). silly cause it's not made from "crudeoil", it doesn't burn,or freeze, within reasonable temps(-100 to +800 degrees F) it will vaporize into lovely whte snoke, but has no "flashoint"!. in fact it snuffed outthe "electronic ignition butane lighter i tried to ignite it with!. being very cheap, and eas yto produce(using my "moleculer fusing/mixing" method, very cold process compared to "cracking plants"). the 0 minus engines run on air andliqud "Hydrox mix", or H2 an O they breath in smog, and put out cleaner air and water in the exhaust!. turning "LA" traffic into "smog eliminaters", not "makers"; how many commuters would like to pull over to the curb and ask thettheegardener to give the a fuelup, from his wateringhose!.. anybody outthere know of a "venture capital group", that would like to develop future "production style demos", and tell "OPEC" what they can do with their "crude"!. let me know, a phone number would be nice.. for the benifit of the GM future thinkers i sent this idea too, back in '78'79,"A/K/A" Charles Love Fowler, or jus' chukfinn now

It's the most abundant baryonic matter in the Universe. The Sun is mostly a Hydrogen crust around a super heated Helium core. The process on the Sun is called Fusion! We need to develop a lower temperature Fusion Furnace as non-automotive energy source. We need to develop more and better solar, wind and geo-thermal solutions.

But oil is far from being over! We have used oil from the Middle East while there is literally tons of it here on the North American Continent. Guess the US Government has always planned to be the last to have oil. Canada, Colorado, Utah and Wyoming all have vast oil deposits mostly on government owned land. How much is in these areas? Close to 5 Trillion Barrels, that's about 8 times the oil in the Middle East from the beginning and it can be produced at under $50 dollars a barrel.

The problem with oil prices recently has been refinery capacity and enough Ethanol to replaced the MTBE additive that was outlawed in the 2005 Energy Act. MTBE was contaminating underground water supplies costing Billions of $ for treatment plants to remove and MTBE must be phased out by Jan. 2007. Ethanol is now being produced in greater quantity and gasoline prices are coming down. At the end of 2005 two companies were producing most of the Ethanol about 4 billion gallons per year but as a gasoline additive we need a like amount (4 billion gallons per year). Whoa! The price goes up and refineries scramble to get enough Ethanol. Obviously companies producing Ethanol are a great investment opportunity. We will not be dependent on Middle East oil all that much longer and they by standards of other reserves are running low.

Other areas there are BIG oil reserves is northern Venezula, South China Sea and the Gulf of Mexico. Most past oil was drawn from the Mississippi Zone 8,300 feet down. At 15,000 feet down there is another layer of oil untouched for the most part all around the Earth. We just need to find the pools, drill and develop. Every time gasoline prices go up the uninformed listen to the media about how we Earthlings are running out of oil. Be advised that there are MANY other reasons causing gasoline prices to soar. Today, our fat cat oil companies have not turned profits into exploration or building new refineries. Refineries built in the 1960's are still producing our gasoline. They are old, outdated, inefficient and little capacity has been added. Another note is these old refineries are dangerous also. Look at the explosion in Texas in the recent past. We should be screaming at our oil companies more then we complain to OPEC.

I think we should do an analysis to determine the mean time before the average thread goes off into la-la land.

What my above message is saying is Hydrogen unless mixed with other elements or processes is useless. Hydrogen only burns in the presences of Oxygen. (9th grade lab experiment!) This is an Alternative Power Blog. I'm saying we should look at what we have in our hand ie. solar, wind, geo-thermal and even oil which is clouded with uninformed assertions about it's future as an energy source. Oil is not unlimited but believe me what has been used up until now has only scratched the surface of what's truly available. However the downside is the Hydro-Carbons released could eventually turn the Earth into another Venus. A Runaway GreenHouse...

Yes...and explain to me again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes?

If you turn sheep's bladders inside out and shove them where the Sun doesn't shine this will cause tremendous headaches which in turn diminish earthquakes all around the globe. But you already knew that! Right?

For my 2 cents worth, I think the ancient gods created the Great Pyramid, and used it to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen, and used the hydrogen in the huge laser (grand gallery) just as the clay tablets say. (see books by Christopher Dunn)

Chris

So for what purpose did they use the laser?

What do you think the uses of a really powerful laser are?

Isn't it amazing just how geometric and harmonically tuned the grand gallery is... a bit beyond your average stoneage tribe. Sitchin says that the clay tablets report 3 uses.

a high powered weapon capable of bringing down air or space craft.

A high powered communication system for communicating to the home planet when it was in range.

a guidance system for landing space vehicles. He says that there was a 'landing corridor', basically an isoceles triangle. The apex on Mt Ararat; the lower left on Giza, and the lower right on Mt Katherine in Sinai. (tallest mt in Sinai) The landing zone was in central Sinai. and a command tower at Jerusalem. The bisect of the leftside was Baalbek in Lebanon. The spaceport was subsequently nuked about 5000 years ago, the fallout basically ended the sumerian civilization. It is truly fascinating reading... and He paints a very comprehensive picture, even if a few of the pieces are missing or obviously arguable.

Chris

Of course, how silly of me. And on the week ends they could make a laser light show on the clouds to entertain the masses. Better than TV.

rcapper,

I've read as many books on the subject as I can lay hands on. Based on the evidence I've heard about, it is a best fit to the evidence. Traditional archeological explanations (tombs) do not come anywhere close to a satisfactory reasoning of the precision in execution, mathematics, bonding stronger than stone, shape, harmonics, location, orientation, geometries, and many other features of this structure, let alone other anomalies in ancient times.

For example, the 650 ton block of stone (15ft X 15ft X 65Ft) left in the quarry at Baalbek, while three similar blocks are position in a huge platform 15 feet up, and mated so finely together that paper can't go between them. When the romans came along, they built their largest temple in the world (Zeus/Jupiter) on top of this platform, which was already ancient even then. The monolithic blocks makes the roman quarrying look like children's work. We can't move blocks like this today, or quarry them. Certainly not the work of stoneage cave dwelling, hunter-gatherers, or tribes, or whatever. This is evidence of advanced knowledge. If not, prove that it can be done to day, or come up with some better explanation of the facts.

Chris

You said "This is evidence of advanced knowledge. If not, prove that it can be done to day, or come up with some better explanation of the facts."

I think you may be overlooking what can be accomplished by shear volumes of dedicated people working at the behest of some very smart and driven people, even without the benefit of today's technology. That is, if so propelled, a society could again make the pyramids without benefit of modern equipment - but we're simply not "propelled" to do so.

The manpower and horsepower represented by these 4 blocks of stone, consistent with what traditional archeology can show for human development in this region 5000 years ago or older, is gargantuan. It would mean that hundreds of people laboured for years to cut and move these 4 blocks, and build the rest of the platform... for what reason? it doesn't make sense!!!!!!

Why does anyone build anything? With that much effort involved, there had better be a very good reason, for the structure itself, and for the size of the blocks, and the labour involved. That being said, how did they achieve the precision? Supposedly they only copper, bronze or brass as metals? I'm not saying that its impossible... I just want it to make sense. and to know why... why build it. what purpose. If you know that, you can figure out more of the how.

anyway... we're off topic here.

chris

That's a different view of the pyramids. I read that the ancient sumerians or syrians said they got their form of writing (hyroglyphics) from the people that decended from the sky. I also read where the great pyramid was covered with a casing of white granite that when the sun would shine on it you could see it from the moon it was so bright but when Cairo had the big eartquake that destroyed the city they took it off and used it to rebuild with. The only granite left is near the top of the pyramid. I think we should build a new one just like the old one. Why were there pyramids on almost every continent and what were they for? I would like more information on this laser idea, can you send me a link to it? phoenix66109@hotmail.com Is there other research that interprets the hyroglyphics he talks about? An independant study backing up this information of the ancients talking of a laser and spaceport?

As far as alternative fuels, I am tired of taking it up the rear from my electricity provider. What would I need to make a woodburning steam engine? I could build a woodburner and build a steam generator, The part that I am not fully aware of is how to make the turbine that drives the generator and how to store the energy and regulate it so that it is similar to what comes in my house now. is there an easier way to provide my own electricity? What are the components needed to direct and regulate this power to my fusebox? Evansville, Indiana

According "Fletch" a can of 30W oil and some ball bearings. "Would you look at the muck on these windows!"

As far as living off-grid, look up an ex-employer of mine named Bill Kemp, and his book called "The Renewable Energy Handbook". He has built a wonderful home in the country, and lives completely off-grid, and has for a decade at least. A very knowledgeable and bright man.

As regards the casing of the great pyramid. The clay tablets report that Isis, who was very upset with Ra, for killing her husband, and cutting him into 14 pieces, went on a rampage, and chased him all over, finally trapping him inside the Pyramid. She used her energy weapons to try to destroy his creation, with him in it. All she managed to to was to smash to rubble the outer casing, which was considered an impossible feat in itself. As you point out, the casing stones have built a large part of the adjoining city. The council of the gods ruled that Ra should be shut up inside the pyramid for eternity. but he was rescued by his followers who cut the ragged shaft up the point beyond the blocking stones at the access to the grand gallery. the ancient clay tablets provide a very solid reasoning for this odd feature, where all else inside is very precise. Remember that the passage to the interior of the pyramid was not 'discovered' until 800ad. Isis subsequently found 13 of the 14 pieces (not the penis) and reformed her husband. (they had mastery of genetic principles; they had tweaked their own genetic clocks to give them ultra-long life, and also, made us workers)

Zecharia Sitchin - The Earth Chronicles (starting with The 12th Planet)

Christopher Dunn - http://www.amazon.com/Giza-Power-Plant-Technologies-Ancient/dp/1879181509/sr=1-1/qid=1163449718/ref=sr_1_1/002-8196476-0080801?ie=UTF8&s=books

Re-reading some of the posts something occurs to me in response to "a guidance system for landing space vehicles" in post 12. Does it seem probable that a civilization advanced enough to build such an apparatus and such space vehicles would need the equivilent of a "light house" to find their way? Also, what about the logistics of sweeping even one steradian adequately to be of use at astronomical distances? Hmmm, sometimes one might wonder how far out these ideas were thought...

I think that is an excellent question. I would have to say that they had a 'greener' orientation to electromagnetics than we do. In this 'landing system' the 'control tower' was at jerusalem. On the rock in Jerusalem was a special "omphalo" stone, which apparently means "navel". There were similar stones at Delphi in Greece, and Heliopolis in Egypt, and the implication is that they were harmonically tuned to each other and to 'god' and they formed a harmonically based communication system.

Jerusalem is apparently at the centroid of an isoceles triangle. Baalbek is at the left midpoint of a long side, and there is a similar geometric line to Delphi and Heliopolis.

I certainly don't have the answers, but I find this completely fascinating. There are many sources indicating that technology devolved for thousands of years, before our current technological boom picked it up again. All I can say is that the clay tablet records are replete with accounts of space travel, rocket launches, astronomical knowledge, aerial wars, bombs (sodom and gomorrah) ray weapons, and many other examples of advanced technology. The mathematics in the great pyramid alone should tell us that whoever built it had more advanced knowledge than we did, and greener.. as it was a power plant among other things.

Chris

As is often the case, PM attempts to "dumb down" the issues to make them more understandable to the masses, and corrupts the argument in the process.

Hydrogen is already at least "an answer," just like "42."

It is the question that is important. For instance, what form of 'fuel' holds a density of Hydrogen sufficient for use in transportation, with acceptable storage parameters and waste products? For years now, the answer has been hydrocarbon refined liquid fuels...gasoline and diesel come to mind.

Soon, with the advent of greater efficiency and economies-of-scale from mass production, we may have a better supply of hybrid-type vehicles running on electric motors.

Next, we'll find more efficient ways of producing, storing, and transferring the electrical energy stored on the vehicle and to those motors.

This may well be onboard hydrogen production, or it may be more efficient production of the electricity directly by use of fuel cells that be supplied with liquid state fuels like LNG (methane-to-electricity?) as well as plug-in hybrids that start out with a fully charged, efficient battery pack so that centralized electricity production (more efficient) is used for a larger share of the electricity generation. Better and cheaper solar cells or other alternative generation will help as well.

Basically, all the pieces are here, but just not efficient or economical enough at present oil prices. And we aren't running out of fossil fuels, just cheap sources of them. Liquified coal and tar-sands fuels, as well as bio-mass ethanol (corn-based is a stupid competition with feed and world food supplies that are better used to feed us) will be a great addition to the mix, along with other biofuels.

We just have to keep working on it.

Of course, that's assuming someone doesn't come up with a REALLY unique motor, or get something like the RandCAM engine mass produced, or fugure out that Joe-Cell thing, or whatever other high-density, high-efficiency methods are running around out there, whether real, suppressed tech, or not yet in production.

Hydrogen itself, as a raw gas, is just not feasible. You can't produce it efficiently enough, you can't hold enough of it in a tank the size of a car because it's not dense enough, it is too dangerous for the general public to dispense, it is difficult to produce efficiently (takes about as much to produce it as you get back out in increased efficiency at use), it leaks out of any tank you put it in under pressure (too small), it's explosive with only a little Oxygen and a spark, etc...

Much of the thread below seems to be going off into discussions of the tower of Babel and the preflood civilizations. Hmmm.

HI Sandman

I read of a sterling engine that has a hydrogen heat transfer. if hydrogen is explosive how can it be used as a heat transfer to run the sterling engine?

Hmm...hydrogen cars are probably next in line after time travel, teleportation and warp drive. Short of a miracle, hydrogen cars are never going to be practical. At ambient pressure and temperature, each car would have to tow a blimp full of the stuff (and you thought rush hour was bad now) to get any decent range. Of course you could store the hydrogen as liquid at cryogenic temps and extreme pressure...think of the Hindenberg stuffed into the trunk of your Ford, and envision what would happen in a crash.

We have had decades to develop electric cars, but big oil and big govt won't allow it. And the electricity could be generated by solar cells, perhaps integrated into the roofing of your house. Eternal energy, no pollution, etc. And we could be free of the stranglehold of the Arabs. By the time their oil runs out, they will have bought most of America with the proceeds, and we will all be working for them. Isn't that a pretty picture?

I've been very negative on hydrogen based on my own experience, but when I saw in the PM article (Table) that you can create 150 million tons of hydrogen annually from 15.9 million cubic feet of natural gas, I was IMPRESSED!!! I'd like to see a lot more detail on that. Considering only electrolysis and liquid hydrogen, it seems that you're starting with the most expensive, highly refined form of energy, electricity, and taking a step backward to create the gas. Energy is then needed to compress and chill the hydrogen and the result is a flammable liquid that, even in the most bulky dewar, is constantly boiling. Heat is then needed to return it to a gaseous state. In a rocket engine, that can be obtained in the wall of the combustion chamber but, in many earthly installations, that leads to a mass of ice on the plumbing. Even the "simple" task of measuring the liquid level in the dewar becomes a problem when you try to design a float. Perhaps use of high pressure storage and transport and/or metal hydrides will help resolve these problems but I find it difficult to envision a system of appropriate weight and volume for every day transportation use. DickL

IN Answering this Question you need to consider is there only one key or are there many keys. I Personaly believe there are many keys (diversity) is the answer to this Question. Weather it's power or fuel, diversity will lead to compitetion & that will drive the cost down as the product is perfected & mass produced.

You been talking about hydrogen used under high presher. i see a add for a book were they used elecrite from a car to turn water into hydrogen gas and let it flow into the intake of a caberator of a car and bern it for more gas miles. is this a way to go or misleading add.

There may be some exception, somewhere, in which the promoter is confused (and has incorrectly measured the effect of the device) but essentially all of these are not just misleading but truly fraudulent, in other words, intentionally deceptive.

Splitting hydrogen from water requires more energy that the energy value of the hydrogen. This is not unique to hydrogen but is true of any reversible reaction.

Electrolysis is, chemically: (2) H2O plus energy --> (2) H2 + O2

Burning H2 is the reverse reaction: (2) H2 + O2 --> (2) H2O plus energy

If both reactions we perfectly efficient, you would get the same amount of energy out of the burning reaction (in heat) that went into the electrolysis reaction (in electricity). Even then, there would no useful effect: you've used 1 hp to create 1 hp. But in practice, the reactions are not 100% efficient, so there is a net loss. If you put 1 kilowatt into electrolysis, then you'd be dong well to get .75 kilowatt out. If you then took the resulting hydrogen and burned it in an engine, you would get about 25% of the input out of the engine. (Most internal combustion engines are about 25% efficient.) So the engine would be putting out .1875 kilowatt. Typically, a car alternator is about 65% efficient, so the alternator would put out .1218 kilowatts -- nowhere near enough to support the electrolysis.

So you've taken 1 kilowatt that could be driving the wheels and reduced it to .1218 kilowatt, losing almost 90%.

The saving grace of these scams is that they produce so little hydrogen, (and therefore consume so little power) that the actual drop in efficiency is not very large. Many of these will draw about 10 amps from the alternator to produce enough bubbles that the unsuspecting buyer thinks the thing is "working." 10 watts at 12 volts is 120 watts, which is about 1/6 hp. That is such a tiny amount relative to a 100 hp (or larger) engine, that there is no measurable loss in performance.