Batteries Enable All-Electric Car

This is a whole cottage industry!

http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/catalog.shtml

The link above has kits for a number of popular cars.

And, batteries are going through a revolution. Here is a "new" technology that will open the door to many new possibilities based on lead/acid predecessors:

http://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=89

That new battery technology does not work. I used to work for a major lead acid battery manufacturer and the idea behind this is to create a cross between a battery and a capacitor. They expected the ability to produce very high discharge rates. The site mentions that surface area is most important which is simply not true. High surface area on the negative will lead to better cold cranking amps ratings, but that is a non issue when you are looking at all electric systems. I saw many of these batteries in the lab and performance was terrible. For long draws of current you want a ense thick plate and the current solution is to make the battery heavier. Don't believe the hype just because they made a fancy web page.

Thanks, Paul, for the information.

We simply have to wait and see. However, my interest was not from their web page, but a news article where this company has inked a deal with Electrolux and BAE regarding this technology.

I was assuming that if the big boys on the block had an interest in investing in it, there probably was something of substance to the chemistry.

If not, then I am sure there will be the host of conspiracy theories to explain it!

Like all emerging technologies it never works on the first go. I know that so far it is not working well. Personally I doubt that it is the right technology for electric cars. The theory is sound, but there are other applications, particularly diesel engine starting, that this technology fits better. That is once it gets dialed in better.

I have yet to be convinced of the long term viability of multiple lithium cells or any other type of battery system [ with the possible exception of sintered Nickle Cadmium types ].

To get best performance each cell would require its own computerised charge discharge control with timed interval cell leveling to keep the whole system to best operational efficiency .With multiple cells of high count there would be failures of capacity which would compromise performance and require high maintenance costs for individual or multiple replacement. With 12 Volt units complete battery replacement would be required for one cell failure, and it would seem a complete replacement after 5 years would be on the cards. On the whole a complex and expensive exercise.

Scrap battery pollution could be worse than old rubber tyres, if electric cars are to have a chance the storage system needs to be really long term and low maintenance, and or a good recycling system for obvious reasons.

Presumably there end up being will be a whole minor industry breaking down battery packs to re-use the good ones and recycle the duds. (That is once [or if?] the technology stabilises). Must be some good business there for someone who is into that sot of thing. (Too much like hard work for KrisDel^TM enterpises)
Del

The manufacturer I used to work for recycles something like 99.8% of a battery and pay good scrap prices for dead batteries. Individual computers and individual charging and current leveling are not going to happen. Monitoring maybe. Individual cells will be able to be replaced as they do today. You should have a look at some of the large scale battery back up systems. The car systems are just scaled down versions. There will be one main computer and operational efficiency has a stronger basis on temperature than anything else. Replacing cells will be dangerous.

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I have yet to be convinced of the long term viability of multiple lithium cells

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I am in contact with a guy from a finnish electric vehicle company who is charge of the cell testing. He's got one big 200Ah cell that he's been cycling constantly for 16months simulating typical ev usage (discharge of an hour or two) followed by a quick charge (normally you'd charge over night at a slower rate).... Last time he looked (as of yesterday) the cell was up to 4000+ cycles and the company only advertises 2000 cycles (because it takes too long to find out for sure when a new product is available.

A battery pack with 144V and 200Ah would push a resonable aerodynamic car a couple hundred km....If my car could do that for 4000 cycles (let's say 1 cycle per day to drive somewhere and back then charge overnight) the car would keep going for 11 years...pretty good considering the car would rust apart and get scrapped long before then...(which is another conspiracy within itself). Even if the cell only lasted 2000 cycles (like the company says with a 80% discharge every day) it would still last 4-5 years

The technology is already here to make an electric commuter car. Imagine the smog free drive to work if the majority of cars were electric...and they could be since most of us commute a relatively short distance to work and back.

Do you have a name and website for this Finnish Co. I am interested.

The information I posted came from here and were with regards to LiFePO4 cells manufactured by Thunder-sky. Other companies making cells with similar technology are PHET,

There are many manufacturers of these cells but currently (as usual with anything that works well) there are disputes about who owns patents and has rights to produce and sell without paying royalties to the others: Canadian electric company (Hydro-Quebec) and a couple universities research a technology an patent a process to make it and license it to one company who's mandate is to commercialize it. Other companies pop up making the same thing but have their own claims to a different process and have patents in different countries (china in particular). Company A sues B who counter-sues and goes after A's clients because they are trying to import or whatever...etc etc. The odd thing is, as long as the companies are small, nobody cares. As soon as someone licenses a big handheld power-tool company to use their cell, all h3LL breaks loose.

It drives me crazy thinking about all the good ideas there must be that will never see the light of day because someone someone jumped the gun and licenses a vague sketch on the back of a napkin.

Just throwing this question out there: Is there any such thing as "open source engineering" where you can contribute to the development of something which NOBODY can claim as their own...anyone willing to produce and package can make predecided profit margin (as stated in the hypothetical license) and a kickback to a fund to help fund the R&D of other 'worthy' projects. Wait...I've said too much...I need to go get my patent on this before one of you do!

In Europe, once an invention is publicly disclosed you can no longer patent it.

In the US, you have one year to patent an invention after public disclosure.

In China nothing seems to matter, patent or no patent, it can be stolen. China is doing better, but it still is a risk.

On the Earth, anyone can sue anyone else, patent or no patent. Many times it comes down to who has the deepest pockets to pay the legal fees.

So does that mean, if you have a good idea that you want to see get developed and not pigeon-holed, you need to 'publicly disclose' it asap? Is this a formal thing or you just need to show some kind of record of it being released publicly before someone else begins the patent process?

To what degree are patents 'universal'...if something is patented in the US I don't see the problem with someone making a knock-off and selling it in china...selling it in the US would be another ball of wax though. Is there any kind of a bi-lateral agreement between canada, USA and the european union?

You need a patent attorney and I am not one.

I think for international protection you need to patent wherever you want to maintain control of your intellectual property.

You are right that you could patent something in the US. It could be made by someone else and sold anywhere. Presumably, if it was imported into the US and you raised a flag, Customs could seize it and prevent its entry. However, I don't think that happens automatically. You probably have to petition for that action.

As for releasing something as public domain, you might look at how organizations that offer GNU software do it. GNU is public domain, but the authors do retain rights as to how it is used. I don't know how that works legally, so you really need an attorney to be sure.

Maybe someone here knows someone that would advise you and waive any attorney fees.

One cycle per day would mean you could only drive to work and wait until the next day to drive back. Life cycle testing is only a rough approximation and does not really emulate the real world. There is some sort of correlation between the cycle testing and real life that is a descent estimation like 1000 cycles = 1 year of driving or something like that. Industrial batteries and even golf cart batteries run life cycle tests for many years. I have seen them going strong after 4 years. Sometimes it takes a full year for them to even hit their peak capacity ( most of these types of batteries actually cycle up for a while).

One cycle per day would mean you could only drive to work and wait until the next day to drive back.

<Slaps furry head with paw> ...
How do you work that out..???
Unless you work at over half the range of the battery pack (and can't caharge it during the working day)

Del

I only have 9.0 miles to work, so if I get 40 miles between recharges, then I have plenty for daily usage.

Lead/acid will not easily give that range (but can be made to with careful engineering), but NiMH or Lithium surely will for a compact car.

To get the desired range, the 350-400 miles of a regular IC powered car, with the comfort, carrying capacity, speed and convenience, would require an EV with a price beyond the reach of the average auto owner. To build an EV with a short range is not a car which appeals to most families and their needs. Some people will happily drive EVs, because they have money, are single, never drive long distances or are terminally "green".

Build a short-range plug-in EV with a fuel-burning engine to power a generator onboard. A generator that can keep the batteries fully charged while driving at highway speed. The wheels would be driven by the electric motors. The generator would be powered by a small, light, efficient and clean steam engine, which would allow it to be built to use any liquid or gaseous fuel of choice. Call it an extended-range steam-electric vehicle or a steam-electric hybrid. It could carry enough fuel to get the range desired, when needed, but would run on electricity from the power grid about 80% of the time, saving a lot of fuel without the drawbacks of a complete EV.

For more on this idea e-mail - beesidemeusa@yahoo.co.uk - ask about 'steam-electric hybrids' or if you are an EV purist "extended-range steam-electric vehicle".

I don't think an ev 'should' be marketed or pushed as the solution for long distance commuting for large numbers of people or cargo. I think the use of EVs for the 95% of us that drive to the same place and back could do a lot to reign in the over-use of our oil reserves and pollution of our air. I in no way thing this should be the solution for everyone...but it can be for most of us that have another alternative for longer trips. Here's my point: My brother-in-law has 4 kids and his wife to drive around on evenings and weekends so they have a minivan approprately sized...no problemo so far. But he drives it 30km to work and back every day...bringing his gas bill to well over $100 per week with the gas being $150/week. Converting a car or having a second vehicle costs extra but not THAT much! A 4000lb commuting vehicle is just rediculous...

I'm not 'terminally green' (rofl! I've never heard it put like that) ...for me it's just a question of clean, quiet, transportation...no more gasping at the sight of the sign at the gas station (or an effort to avoid looking), gasping at the smell (if you think you'll just roll down your window instead of using the AC), gasping at the quote the mechanic just gave you for the cracked exhaust manifold (which happens to be 1 solid piece with the cat' integrated along with half the exhaust...grrrr!) ....I'm all out of gasps so I've decided to save a neat car from going to the scrapper since there is just one piece that someone didn't feel like ressurecting...that piece being the motor...it'll cost me a certain premium and headaches but I fell it's worth it.

Here's my numbers. I spend about $250 per month for transportation.

90% is local in-town driving for pleasure or back and forth to work. So, that works out to $225 per month or $2,700 per year for fuel.

I still need my current car for long trips I take and I would not sell it anyway (anotehr story).

Now, if I were to build an EV, my cost would be between $15,000 for something cheap to $30,000 for something interesting. My cost to operate it would be about 1/10th the cost of gas, so $225 in electricity per year. Sounds great, sign me up!

Wait, let's do the math. If I build a basic car at $15,000, then my savings is really $2,430 per year ($2,700 - $270 for the cost of electricity). Divide $15,000 by $2,430 and it takes 6.2 years to break even!

But wait, after six years I probably will need to replace batteries anyway, so add $5,000 for batteries and I have another 2 years to go before it is paid for and can begin to enjoy 4 years of no payments. Then I need more batteries...

If I go with my $30,000 estimate for my "sports car" version, then I virtually double my time to pay it back.

Bottom line... I would love to build an EV, but in no way is it for economics for me. I could do better putting $15,000 into a high growth fund and the yearly interest would nearly buy all my yearly gas for my current car!!!

Good point on the high growth fund...

If I lived in the countryside I wouldn't be considering an ev...even with the price of gas and maintenance. I've got a family so we take the van everywhere for shopping, trips or anything besides me going to work. Since the ev would be my commuter I would sell my other car and 3/4 of the ev is paid for...the difference on a year or so of gas and maintenance and we've about broken even. Sounds peachy on paper! Reality can set in later... ;)

What I have always wondered was, with the computer technology of today, why couldn't we build a "Genset" Hybrid vehicle, Kind of like how a Locomotive works. Have an efficient Diesel engine turn a generator used to charge batteries (only runs when needed) which power 4 electric motors, one connected to each wheel of the vehicle (gives you TRUE all wheel drive, and eliminates the transmission (It can also provide for some "interesting" steering scenarios such as having some of the motors run in reverse while others run forward. And since each wheel is independently run, you could have them all be able to turn 360 degrees allowing you to Parallel park very easily)). The electric motors can also give regenerative braking to used the "stored" power of a moving vehicle to recharge the batteries.

I wonder if this might be cost-effective

We can. E-mail - beesidemeusa@yahoo.co.uk - and ask about steam-electric hybrids. A lot of information there.

This is sort of along the lines you were writing:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/pml_flightlink_electric_mini_cooper_car_news

I don't like the idea of putting the motor inside the wheel because it adds unsprung weight and makes the suspension work harder to keep the wheels planted on the ground. However, it is a great concept car and as you as said, provides some interesting possibilities with independent controllers for each wheel.

In 1991 I walked first time thru a cellar tunnel of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich and saw a prototype of this all-electric car: http://www.twike.de

A small group of freaks of the machine and automotion technology institute was working on it and one could see only parts of the body and interior.

Some years later, I think in summer of 1997, I had the opportunity to drive in a Twike and was deeply impressed by its 50 MPH respectively 80 km/h speed on the military test range in Thun.

This car never made it to become a wide spread means for transportation. I see only very seldom one on Swiss roads, nevertheless it fits well into the actual traffic speed range of Swiss cities and overland roads.

I think that pimping-up of a standard car with electric engine(s) and state-of-the-art accus and so on is no option at all, since the actual car technology is way to heavy and too big. Any use of electric traction elements in a car should, respectively must be combined with light construction or other new technologies as e.g. the Toyota Prius Hybrid engine: http://www.toyota.com/toyotaSearch/search?keyword=prius

The Prius and the Twike incorporate IMHO engineering solutions which are worth to be considered for the next future.

I would rather convert a newer Porsche 911 body to electric in spite of the weight penalties than ride a golf cart on steroids. The realities are:

1) Crash safety. There are, and will always be, trucks on the road that have a much greater mass.

2) Stability. There will always be the potential for cross winds.

3) Hydroplaning and traction. Snow and standing water are a real problem for light vehicles.

4) Comfort. You need heat, A/C, and cargo space.

EVs are specialty vehicles. They can't be all things to all people. The Chevy Volt is a good concept that I think many people can buy into. It looks and drives like a normal car and has about the same weight. It is practical and for those that can live with the limitations, a great car, whereas the Neighborhood Vehicle approach is not going to capture the mainstream commuter.

Good points, AH.

To convert a Scion e5 to electric will have a final cost of $75,000 and the range is very limited compared to an IC engine in the same car.

The limitations on an EV are cost, range, speed, weight and having AC or heat. To match a regular IC engine powered car would cost too much and probably weigh even more. However, an EV with a steam engine powered generator aboard would eliminate the need for so many batteries, reducing the cost, and it could be about the same size, cost and weight of an IC powered car. Ask - beesidemeusa@yahoo.co.uk - about it, lots of info there.