The Electric Car in America (Part 1)

Hi JLoz,

Great article:

With all I heard over the weekend about the seriously troubled financial markets, and how the U.S. taxpayers are picking up the bill for accumulated years of bad management and trader behavior at Freddie, Fannie, Bear Stearns, and other private and quasi-private sector businesses "too big to fail", all I kept thinking as I read your piece was "moral hazard":

The boiled-down question seems to be whether the US taxpayer should guarantee loans to keep the US auto companies alive (hoping they build desired electric vehicles that consumers will want), like we did with Chrysler in the 70's, or should we simply allow these private sector auto companies to fail, and experience the consequences of years of bad management practice.

If we choose to guarantee those loans, won't that influence the decision-making of management at the car companies, enabling them to continue taking bad risks (e.g. making Super-Sized SUV's in the 90's for short-term profit), knowing the taxpayer will bail them out (the moral hazard) in the end?

As someone brought up with GM products (I'm 42) and feels they're part of my American identity, I'm struggling with this one. I know the Japanese government played(plays) a large role in Honda's and Toyota's success, and so their model is not a perfect free-market one.

My feeling is that smaller, more niche-product American auto companies, like Tesla Motors (great name!) that you describe in your piece, have a better chance of surviving in the marketplace, and so maybe that's where the taxpayer should focus attention, if they should get involved at all.

What all those folks are going to do after these big auto companies lay off even more workers, that's the bigger challenge. A flourishing US electric car market hiring some of the laid-off engineers and production workers would help, for sure.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

- Larry

The combination of well entrenched ineffective management and very costly union labor makes it very tough for US car companies to compete with the Asian companies. I hope they can continue to compete as the US needs an indigenous heavy industry to survive in this uncertain world, especially if the world (God forbid) falls into serious conflict again such as in WWI and WWII.

Range is still a real problem for electric vehicles, but for some applications that is not a problem. Hybrid vehicles address this problem by allowing you to recharge your batteries using the engine. Right now I am intrigued by the European approach of very efficient turbodiesels, as they use a lot of proven technology. It will be interesting to see how the future shakes out.

Hi rutleddc - I agree with you on your point about range. And I'm confident union labor costs have factored into Detroit's problems, but that can't explain the entire situation. Don't the production line workers in Japan have their equivalent union(s), demanding higher wages, just like in the U.S., U.K., and other western countries? I know the per-person cost of health care is cheaper in Japan, courtesy of a recent Frontline documentary I watched, so that likely helps them keep the cost of their vehicles low. Do they drive as many SUV's as we Americans (I'm guilty here - my wife and I own a RAV4) on the roads in their home market of Japan? I've heard that Japan has a "culture of engineering", and so maybe this is something that gives them a competitive edge? Looking forward to following this blog. - Larry

Larry,

Many of the Japan-owned plants in the USA do not use union labor (at least as of a couple of years ago) and they get benefits for building here rather than importing vehicles. That is why so many Japanese and German companies now have plants in the USA. They get cheaper and more flexible labor.

I agree with the comment about the "culture of engineering" thought. You can see a level of craftsmanship in my used Audi that is higher than in most Asian cars, and far higher than in most American cars. However, I do not enjoy the higher repair costs!!!

The US car management seems more focused on cost, market placement, and marketing than in in craftsmanship. This results in a focus on high volume vehicles which have lower profit margins, e.g. American cars are more product rather than excellence, except for the expensive vehicles.

Hi rutleddc - I was aware of how they operate in the U.S., but it's how the Japanese auto makers operate in their home market, and treat their own Japanese production workers, that is more interesting for me, to get a real apples-to-apples comparison. There are still many vehicles made in Japan (I've sought them out in the past so I know from personal research). I remember the old guarantee about Japan I was taught in high school in the early 80's - a job for life in exchange for company loyalty, so maybe no unions back in Japan (part of the cultural bargain)? I need more education on this, or maybe a trip to Japan someday . Germany is heavily unionized, both for white-collar engineers and production workers, and they still manage to make nice Audi's. However, I think a lot of their production moved to the former East Germany and other former soviet-block places. - Larry

Audi's are very nice, but pricey in the US. In Germany I think they are still considered luxury cars.

VW in the US is more costly than their competitors, but nicer. The higher end is the European niche in the US.

Excellent point(s)! I didn't like the idea of bailing out Chrysler back then, and I don't like the idea of bailing out the Fannie/Freddie Macs today. I recognize that our entire economy could be shaken as hard or more so than during the "great depression", but I feel that if there is no penalty for poor decision-making on the part of corporate executives (who by the way have scandalously high salaries these days!) then there will be no changes made in the way those decisions are taken. So, to almost keep this on-topic, I concur that Tesla Motors (and their like) is probably more deserving of support, perhaps in the form of tax breaks, than some or any of our more bloated and inefficient auto makers would be.

Nobody forced the American consumers to buy great huge gas guzzling SUVs. The consumers insisted on buying them. The car lots were filled with small economical US vehicles while the SUVs flew off the lots. Toyota builds small efficient vehicles? When was the last time you were actually on a Toyota lot? The Toyota mini vans trucks and SUV models are their biggest sellers and every bit as big and gas guzzling as the US models. Even your precious Honda builds SUVs and trucks that are as big as the US models. The truth is that big vehicles are what the consumers want. Now days if you want a small fuel efficient vehicle I suggest you walk past the Japanese dealers and head straight for Hyundai.

The main drawbacks of EVs are price, range and recharge time. All IC engines are polluting and require expensive power-consuming pollution controls, use oil-based fuels and average only about 12% efficiency. Steam engines take about 30 seconds before being able to move, can hesitate under quick accelleration and can freeze, but they are cleaner than IC engines and have fewer moving parts. None of the three is really suitable by itself to power an automobile.

My idea is to build a plug-in EV that will go 50 miles on the batteries alone, which takes care of about 80% of driving. Add to that a small steam engine to run a generator that will keep the batteries charged. The Lamont water-tube boiler, Lysholm expander and generator would easily fit in the space occupied by the IC engine. [Perhaps even less.] The condenser would be the same size as a radiator. Such a car could easily be driven up to 400 miles on the spur of the moment, then refuel for another 400 miles. In overall use though it would use 80% less fuel since most trips would be short distances. Using AC or heat drains the batteries, but with this configuration there is never any worry about dead batteries. The forced draft open flame of the boiler produces almost no pollution. Water tube boilers do not explode. It can be built to use any liquid or gaseous fuel desired. Since the batteries would be short range the cost of the batteries would be less.

Also the car could double as an emergency generator during power outages. Wish I had the money to build one.

I wish you had the money to build two. Then maybe you'd sell me one...

Enviroman-

I wish!! Not bloody likely though, being on pension and working part-time. Plus having two left thumbs and painful arthritis. I keep tossing the idea out in hopes someone with money will get inspired and do it. I don't want any monetary reward if they do [although it would be nice], just a mention that it was my idea that got them started. Feel free to pass it on to anyone you know too

He is talking about a Doble steam car! Howard Hughes had one

Fascinating - Abner and his brothers built some fine automobiles back in the day!

The Doble was a fine steam car, but it had the problems of a steam car, 30 seconds + to build up pressure to move and freezing weather. I am not talking about a steam car, but a short-range plug-in electric vehicle which uses a small steam engine to generate electricity to charge the batteries while driving. The reasons for using steam power to run the generator is that you can use any fuel that can be conveniently fed into the boiler, although liquids or gases are easiest, the forced draft open flame is very clean and the steam engine is about twice as efficient. The electric side prevents freezing and provides immediate starts. Combined in one vehicle you would have about 80% fuel savings over time as most trips would be on electric power.

Insufficient data to choose the engine type; compound clyinder piston uniflow, the Green Steam Engine which is a rotary piston/cylinder engine, a Tesla Turbine or a Lysholm expander.

What a great idea! It definitely would work. This might be a good time for a start-up. Companies like Tesla and another U.S. start-up (I can't remember the name) seem to be getting alot of attention and from people who are looking to invest in those companies these days.

The ZENN electric car company in Canada might be on the verge of getting into the market, as well, even though today they only make neighborhood electric cars. Anybody hear any word on that?

(I like the idea about using your car as a generator, too.)

jloz-

Thanks for the support. Help spread the word and maybe someone with cash will establish a start-up company. Could do custom conversions at first, then begin building cars the general public would buy. I put out the idea for free use. I would like to have my name associated with it and a little money would be very nice, but the idea is free to anyone who wants to use it.

All electric and Prius based cars. A question, What will happen to all those batteries when they end their lifespan ? Do they get shipped to a third world country for dsisposal, If owners of these cars are not prepared to pay the high sum of battery replacement, what will happen to all these cars? I believe the projected life of The batteries are about 10 years, and the cost in the thousands.

True, the service life is limited, but most cars are not driven by the original owner for anything near 10 years. True, they are expensive, but so are 10 years' worth of full tanks of gasoline. And disposal? No problem - they are approximately 100% recycleable, and will become new batteries.