Engineering News Blog

Engineering News

Latest news of interest to engineers. Sourced from GlobalSpec's Engineering News

Previous in Blog: Cancers Are Rife With Twisted Stem Cells, Casting Doubt on Promising Treatment   Next in Blog: Saving 28,000 Lives a Year
Close
Close
Close
17 comments
Rate Comments: Nested

Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

Posted December 08, 2008 8:52 AM

From mental_floss Blog:

mental_floss477:http://blogs.static.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/20735.html Up in the winter sky, water vapor in a cloud condenses into a droplet and freezes into a tiny bit of ice, with the water molecules bonding together as a hexagonal crystalline lattice with a six-fold symmetry. As water vapor condenses on its surfaces, the ice crystal grows into a hexagonal prism. As the crystal gets larger and larger, branches begin to form at the corners of the hexagon. When the crystal is heavy enough, it falls through the atmosphere toward the ground, where we call it a snowflake. Many of those snowflakes have fallen onto the small town of Jericho, Vermont, the home of Wilson Alwyn Bentley. As a teenager, Bentley became interested in snowflakes, and he attempted to draw them while looking at them through a microscope his mother had given him. He found that he couldn’t get the complex structures of the flakes down on paper before they melted, so he attached a camera to a microscope using an adjustable bellows mechanism and photographed his first snowflake on January 15, 1885. Over the next few decades, Bentley continued to study snowflakes, taking 5,381 photographs of them and developing a system to categorize over 80 different flake types and shapes. In 1920, he became a Fellow of the American Meteorological Society and was awarded the Society’s first research grant ($25). Bentley sometimes told people that he had never seen two snowflakes that looked alike and published several magazine articles arguing that no two flakes are identical. That idea stuck in the public imagination, which brings us to today's question: was he right? Scientists have discovered that as an ice crystal gets blown around in the air while it grows, the environmental conditions it is exposed to and the timing of the exposure determine the shape of the snowflake. With different factors determining the snowflake’s shape, and that shape changing as the growing snowflake moves through different conditions, you get a lot of variety in snowflake shape. Here's a handy little graph from a Caltech physics professor that shows which shapes occur in which conditions: If two growing snowflakes are exposed to the same temperatures and humidity and water saturation levels at the exact same time (live out the exact same lives, if you will), they may look exactly alike at the macroscopic level. In fact, in 1988, the Nancy Knight was studying snowflakes as part of her work with the National Center for Atmospheric Research and found two identical snowflakes of the hollow column type in a Wisconsin snowstorm. But Caltech physics professor and snowflake expert Kenneth Libbrecht (the man who made the above graph) points out that if you look at any two flakes â€" even seemingly identical ones â€" on the atomic level, you’ll find numbers of water molecules and different layouts of those molecules (most water molecules contain an oxygen atom of 16O, but one molecule in every 500 has an 18O). One thing you won’t find? Two snowflakes that are exactly alike. If you’ve got a burning question that you’d like to see answered here, shoot me an email at flossymatt (at) gmail.com. Twitter users can also make nice with me and ask me questions there. Be sure to give me your name and location (and a link, if you want) so I can give you a little shout out.

Read the whole article

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Commentator

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 83
Good Answers: 11
#1

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/08/2008 4:23 PM

After reading this article it seems to me the question of whether two snowflakes are exactly alike has more to do with the meaning of the question than with snowflakes. Someone looking at otherwise (geometrically-) identical snowflakes that differ only in their oxygen-isotope content might say 'Yes!'

A pedantic would say 'Never!' on the basis that both snowflakes do not contain exactly the same molecules, atoms, quarks, or whatever. Of course, on that basis there are no two identical copies of anything.

Seems our CalTech professor hasn't quite gone pedantic here, but has certainly set at least one foot on the slippery slope.

TV

__________________
"If you take yourself too seriously, no one else will." -- TV
Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 230
#2

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/08/2008 11:53 PM

The picture at left is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Bentley

Bentley made a fine collection on black velvet, then photographed each one.

Because snowflake crystals always have six sides, are either of "star" or "drum" shape, have condensed on a dust mote of different shape, have experienced different growth spurts, have experienced different temperature/humidity levels, it is certain that no two snowflake crystals are the same.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: No. VA, USA (No, it does NOTu mean "won't go"!)
Posts: 1796
Good Answers: 75
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 8:21 AM

Sparky:

Remember the old axiom about never saying never, since it only takes one event to disprove the absolute. I would agree that the statistical likelihood is as near nil as makes no difference, but NEVER? I think there is no proof of that.

Mike

__________________
Been away a while. Miss all my old friends. Some of you I KNOW are still around. Where are the rest?
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: No. VA, USA (No, it does NOTu mean "won't go"!)
Posts: 1796
Good Answers: 75
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 8:22 AM

Nor is there any way to prove it. See the axiom above.

Mike

__________________
Been away a while. Miss all my old friends. Some of you I KNOW are still around. Where are the rest?
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#5

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 11:42 AM

Actually a peer review published on two identical snowflakes. Like finger prints not probable but possible.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: No. VA, USA (No, it does NOTu mean "won't go"!)
Posts: 1796
Good Answers: 75
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 12:14 PM

I read that. Some time last year, no?

__________________
Been away a while. Miss all my old friends. Some of you I KNOW are still around. Where are the rest?
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Commentator

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 83
Good Answers: 11
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 3:27 PM

Many years ago NCAR (Nat'l Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado) found two geometrically-identical snowflakes shaped like hexagonal cylinders. Same size, everything.

I suspect the more developed (read 'complex') that two snowflakes are, the less likely that they will look alike. The reason is that they've spent more time in the air and have therefore been subject to different air currents, air moisture content, and whatever else snowflakes are subject to, including quantum effects (not so far-fetched when you consider that crystals grow by the accretion of atoms).

__________________
"If you take yourself too seriously, no one else will." -- TV
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 4:27 PM

Seems within the last two years yes. I read a lot of peer review when I can, but dates can be a little fuzzy. I'm usually more interested in the data and tech.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brecksville, OH
Posts: 1621
Good Answers: 18
#10
In reply to #5

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 6:02 PM

Is that true also for DNA? I should imagine so.

__________________
"Consensus Science got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" : Rephrase of Will Rogers Comment
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 8:45 PM

Much more highly improbable. The DNA tests used is another story.

As a average 6 people in the U.S. will have the same DNA results from the test.

DNA excludes but does not prove you did it. The police are allowed to lie stating it is proof but in court this is ignored. The problem is the people with the same DNA can be your neighbors or not. You could map their Human Geom for a few million.

DNA is the only forensic tool used by the justice department that has passed scientific peer review. There are no standards for fingerprints, yes Virginia morphing is allowed.

So the test shows DNA being the same but only a few exception actually make this so.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: No. VA, USA (No, it does NOTu mean "won't go"!)
Posts: 1796
Good Answers: 75
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/10/2008 11:38 AM

Case here in the US a about 6 months ago (paternity suit, and the young "lady" in question was in question, indeed!) in which two twin brothers were both accusing the other of being the father of the child she was carrying. No dispute that either COULD have been, since they all readily admitted that the three-way was of the simultaneous variety (if you get the drift), but the brothers were "identical" twins (no such thing, technically, but the DNA was so identical that on the most complete match possible, it did exactly that, match). I don't know what the final outcome of that bizarre case was, though.

But it did prove that DNA is not foolproof. Merely statistically strong as an indicator. I can't wait to sit on Jury duty now, with that knowledge. Talk about muddying the waters!

Mike

__________________
Been away a while. Miss all my old friends. Some of you I KNOW are still around. Where are the rest?
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/10/2008 11:59 AM

Hello micahd02,

First learn your rights as a juror. If the court knows you know your rights as a juror they will dismiss you asap so don't tell them know until your are in the jury box on a case.

The Fully Informed Jury Association http://www.fija.org/index.php?page=documents&sectionid=31&display=files is a good place to start With this knowledge the judge can become an offender for violating the Constitution. If all jurors had this knowledge and a working knowledge of the Constitution, 90% of our mess today would vanish.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: No. VA, USA (No, it does NOTu mean "won't go"!)
Posts: 1796
Good Answers: 75
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/10/2008 1:59 PM

I'll look that up. I have done jury duty twice, and actually enjoyed the process, being foreman of the jury once. So now, if I read this, will I be consumed with guilt because I did it wrong?

Hope not, but they do say you learn most from the battles you lose.

Mike

__________________
Been away a while. Miss all my old friends. Some of you I KNOW are still around. Where are the rest?
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/10/2008 3:28 PM

Guilt for something you were misled about is wasted emotions. We have enough things to feel bad about from unexpected consequences from actions that should have been altruistic or at least neutral.

There is more than just Jury duty that the courts mislead about but they would have to show that they work different than you are taught in school, and this illusion is one that they don't want to shatter. You must understand the differences in whole before you can tackle this one.

Think of it as infringing on their convictions about their belief system. They have to accept the truth but they don't have to like it.

The party that is not an officer of the court but is a jurist has much more power than is liked by the courts. Even more power than a police officer, but not a Sheriff.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 230
#17
In reply to #14

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/10/2008 6:18 PM

Hello U V

from me

The Weblink you give above is an important one, which should be more often visited and studied by those who wish to retain some of the freedoms which have been lost by ignorance of the law.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#7

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 1:17 PM

Would that be none alike this snowstorm, or in Jericho, VT, or ever? I wonder if you could calculate how many snowflakes in a storm, or, how many ever?

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 230
#12

Re: Is it True That No Two Snowflakes Are Alike?

12/09/2008 9:05 PM

On a large scale - in a snowstorm, all snowflakes (assembly of snow crystals) as they are falling look alike.

As the viewing scale becomes more detailed, they look less and less alike.

Consider the number of molecules and atoms in a snowflake crystal.

Also because of the considerable differences before and during formation, the possibilities for "final" detailed shape are enormous.

It is similar in stating that no two blades of grass are alike.

The reason is the huge numbers of atoms involved, along with all the other variables.

So while on the surface, in a cursory view, all grass looks the same, it is not, when you zero in to minutes scale view.

And of course DNA does differ between individuals, even "identical twins", but the so-called police/FBI "proof" used in Courts is an unreliable test - If the test is taken to a fine degree there are many significant differences.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Reply
Reply to Blog Entry 17 comments

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

agua_doc (1); Bricktop (1); micahd02 (5); Sparkstation (3); TheVoices (2); U V (5)

Previous in Blog: Cancers Are Rife With Twisted Stem Cells, Casting Doubt on Promising Treatment   Next in Blog: Saving 28,000 Lives a Year

Advertisement