Previous in Forum: PT100 Temperature Resistance Chart   Next in Forum: Level
Close
Close
Close
19 comments
Member

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 9

Control Loop Current Measurement

04/17/2015 1:42 AM

i want to know how to measure mA current in the remote flex I/O WITHOUT breaking the loop. i connected my fluke across the circuit on the i/o. i had my varying mA analogue signal alright but there was invalid measure on the DCS Console. can i have some explanation on that? what best way can i measure current in a live loop.

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: AUN
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Large hole formally occupied by furry woodland creature.
Posts: 3385
Good Answers: 97
#1

Re: control loop current measurement

04/17/2015 1:46 AM

Hall effect transducer.

__________________
CRTL-Z
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 77
#2

Re: control loop current measurement

04/17/2015 2:02 AM

Install spade terminals as standard. Put a meter across both screws in the terminal, and open the spade.

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cd. Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico.
Posts: 1023
Good Answers: 69
#5
In reply to #2

Re: control loop current measurement

04/17/2015 8:36 AM

GA Crabtree, I'd just like to add: When you're done, close the spade and then remove your meter.

__________________
No hay conocimiento ni herramienta que sustituya al sentido comun.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5792
Good Answers: 315
#3

Re: control loop current measurement

04/17/2015 4:43 AM

Use an oscilloscope current probe.

Are the signal AC or DC?

What frequency?

__________________
We are alone in the universe, or, we are not. Either way it's incredible... Adapted from R. Buckminster Fuller/Arthur C. Clarke
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3688
Good Answers: 89
#14
In reply to #4

Re: control loop current measurement

04/20/2015 9:38 AM

Nothing to add here, Rixter's right.

Current Transformer multimeter to measure current without breaking the line and with almost-zero interference on the circuit. (due to the CT 'bleeding off' some of the EM around the wire, there may be some change in the total current draw, but it should not affect the system, unless you're working around the micro-amp range.)

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Earth - I think.
Posts: 2143
Good Answers: 165
#6

Re: control loop current measurement

04/17/2015 9:08 AM

"i connected my fluke across the circuit on the i/o. i had my varying mA analogue signal alright but there was invalid measure on the DCS Console. can i have some explanation on that?"

Most DCS/PLC 4-20ma analog inputs will have 250 Ohms between the + and - terminals. When you put your meter (in ma reading mode) across the circuit, you were putting another low resistance in parallel with that resistor.

"what best way can i measure current in a live loop."

Instead of trying to read the current directly, try reading the voltage across those same terminals. To start find an unused input and read the resistance from + to - terminals. Ten dollars says it is 250 Ohms. Use the resistance you read in the equation E=I*R (rearrange to I=E/R) to determine the ma from the voltage.

__________________
TANSTAAFL (If you don't know what that means, Google it - yourself)
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15501
Good Answers: 957
#7

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/17/2015 1:37 PM

The current measuring electronics does not read the voltage applied to it. It measures the current running through it. Therefore if you install in your permanent installation a 100 ohm resistor in series with the current loop the receiver will not notice if this resistor is in series or bypassed. The question for the OP is where will this resistor be physically placed for this is where one can measure the current without interrupting a live loop. All one now has to do is parallel the 100 ohm resistor with an ammeter and presto, your ammeter measures the current while the instrumentation reads the exact same current. You can in theory, measure the voltage drop across the 100 ohm resistor but one must know the precise resistance value, too.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
4
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 669
Good Answers: 176
#8

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/17/2015 8:20 PM

How ironic; I gave a class on this today to some instrument techs.

To read a 4-20mA signal
1) Use a Fluke 771 meter which is a clamp-on. Easiest non-intrusive method to read a current, but you have to possess one to be able to use it. It's not cheap and there's no Chinese knock-off.

2) Put a diode in series in the loop, forward biased so that it conducts under normal operation. When you put an ampmeter/ammeter/multi-meter-in-current-measuring-mode across the diode, the low resistance of the meter's input is effectively a short circuit compared with the 0.7V or so voltage drop across the diode. The meter's voltage drop be in the mV range, so the loop current takes the path of least resistance and flows through the meter.

You can buy terminal blocks with a diode installed already.

Industrial pressure transmitters do exactly this. They have a diode behind a pair of "test terminals" to allow the current loop signal to be read without breaking the primary loop signal. Just put a milliammeter across the test terminals and voila, get a loop current reading. Doing so does not divert any current from the rest of loop, everything else works as it should.

3) Put a precision resistor in series in the loop and measure the voltage drop with a voltmeter. There are standard precision resistor values. 10 ohms generates a 40mV - 200mV drop; 250 ohms generates a 1.0-5.0Vdc drop. The lower the resistance, the lower the burden on the loop power supply. Too high a resistance can limit the current in the loop if the power supply doesn't source sufficient voltage.

The problem for most people is associating the voltage drop to an equivalent milliamp current level, unless you do it every day.

4) Open the loop (remove a wire) and insert a milliampmeter and all that breaking the circuit involves.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8778
Good Answers: 376
#9

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/19/2015 6:19 PM

Also, don't forget to actually look at the IO modules and DCS, you may find one or the other will give you the measured mA signal levels as a diagnostic or similar value you can access with a computer.

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/19/2015 9:14 PM

Thats right, it may well have some OBTE.

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8778
Good Answers: 376
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/19/2015 9:21 PM

OBTE?

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15501
Good Answers: 957
#12
In reply to #10

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/19/2015 9:24 PM

Orville Buried The Evidence?

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/19/2015 10:25 PM

Close.

On Board Test Equipment aka BITE: Built In Test Equipment.

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - Old Hand

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 14331
Good Answers: 162
#15

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/20/2015 4:14 PM

Good stuff from all responders! I especially like the BITE from Wal, and the simple set-up example from Iris. The best time to find out what a current output loop is doing is not during a critical part of system operation. Find a time when the sub-system you are working on will be "offline" - and then use a loop calibrator (yes Fluke makes these also, but so does a number of other vendors) to inject a 4 mA, 12 mA, and a 20 mA series of signals that can be verified by the calibrated corresponding EU's on-screen at the HMI. This of course assumes that the HMI still is updating this parameter when the sub-system is "offline".

If this is a mission-critical signal, you never, ever, never want to interrupt this for ANY reason. For example, this could be the oil pressure transmitter on a gas turbine, and interrupting the signal will trip the gas turbine (down goes Mr. Megawatt). So do be careful and plan ahead. If you still need to check a 4-20 loop on a critical piece of the puzzle, then best to use the expensive, and non-intrusive form of measurement. Or, as Iris has stated, if this is a pressure transmitter with test terminals present, you might check into the operating manual to see if the leads are diode connected.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
3
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 669
Good Answers: 176
#16

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/20/2015 8:41 PM

2nd part: loop current monitoring

1) Crabtree (GA) mentioned this early on in this thread, but I want to expand on it.

Use a terminal block with a fuse holder. Connect a milliammeter 'across the fuse' (across the terminals), then remove the fuse from the circuit so that the loop current runs through the ammeter.

2) Check to see if the device indicates the loop current

a) Most industrial transmitters with a local indicator display will usually display the loop current in a local indicating display

b) A loop controller's milliamp current output is proportional over the output range of 0-100%. The bottom display shows the output in percent.

Same practical problem here as with voltage drop across a resistor - understanding the relationship of 0-100% percent to 4-20mA. 15% of 4-20mA = 6.40mA

c) Smart valve positioners can display the SP (the input signal). The screen shot below shows actual position in the top display and the input signal as 2 digits (in percent) in the bottom display (AUT is for automatic mode) 36% of 4-20mA = 9.76mA

3) Since HART inherently uses a DC current loop for its carrier, use HART, if available.

That's if
- the field instrument is HART
- and HART is enabled
- and the loop has 250 ohms of resistance

then use a HART modem or a HART communicator to read the loop current.

The displays below show the On-line mode for a 375 or 475 HART handheld communicator showing the loop current.

All the 1.000 values in the 475 screen shot are clearly bogus, probably because Rosemount had too many people calling support asking why their current value was different from the one in the manual.

4) Put a loop powered digital display in series in the loop and configure it to display loop current:

The meter above is not displaying current, but any loop powered meter can be configured to display 4.00 - 20.00 over the range of the input.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
2
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 669
Good Answers: 176
#17

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/21/2015 12:06 AM

Specifically for 1794-IExx Flex I-O, the input resistance for 4-20mA is 238 ohms:

If you put a DC voltmeter across any pair of red and blue terminals, you'll read the voltage drop across the 238 ohm resistance, where 4mA = 0.952V, 12.0mA = 2.856V, 20mA = 4.76V

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/21/2015 2:41 AM

You are really going to town here Iris!

Too bad the OP has disengaged....

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32049
Good Answers: 838
#19

Re: Control Loop Current Measurement

04/25/2024 11:31 AM

Once it has been done at either dry commissioning or dry maintenance, and recorded at that event, use the record to determine it from the reading displayed.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 19 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

adreasler (1); Crabtree (1); Iris (3); jack of all trades (2); James Stewart (1); Kilowatt0 (1); PWSlack (1); Randall (1); redfred (2); Rixter (1); Unredundant (1); Wal (3); Yahlasit (1)

Previous in Forum: PT100 Temperature Resistance Chart   Next in Forum: Level

Advertisement