Pressurizing Non Refillable Cylinders - Rigid Foam

There's a reason they are called non-refillable cylinders.

Prohibited Refilling of DOT 39 Specification Cylinders

Hi Lyn, I have readed that and about the USD $500.000 fine.

But my case is different..

I have purchased new unused DOT39 non refillable cylinders from a manufacturer

Answer from the manufacturer "We do not have information on filling to offer and we would violate our customer's trust if we did and passed it on."

Well, we will not to sell this products, are for our own use so it is not feasible to invest in expensive technology. I know that this DOT39 are filled by a competitor company of us using not too complex technology. Regretably, we can not do spy work to know their methods!

Hi Lyn, I have readed that and about the USD $500.000 fine.

But my case is different..

I have purchased new unused DOT39 non refillable cylinders from a manufacturer

So what you are saying is that you have purchased these new, unused, empty cylinders before you have the knowledge or machinery to fill them?

1. How many did you purchase?
2. Are you a chemist?
3. But my case is different.. I don't think so!
4. What if you add the propellant and it reacts chemically with your polyiol and isocyanate?
5. You are searching the internet and posting on an engineering forum on how to do something that has the potential of a serious disaster!?!?!?
6. So what you are saying is that you are going to trick your customer into thinking that you are using disposable containers when you are turning the cylinders into refillable ones!
7. Once you fill the DOT39 cylinder and use the material, the cylinder becomes NON_REFILLABLE! You are trying to do an end run around your customer and also the LAW!
8. Do you know which propellant to use because your statement (maybe a refrigerant?) frightens me. You could have a chemical reaction and the cylinder will explode and create a Bhopol gas cloud and kill everyone in the surrounding area! just look at the image below!

If you truly want to do this, let us know so we can alert the authorities and I will grab my SCBA's and hunker down in my bomb shelter!

What you are trying to do is criminal and you will be criminally liable for any injuries and loss of life.

You frighten me!

• How many did you purchase? 4
• Are you a chemist? no
• But my case is different.. I don't think so!, yes it is
• What if you add the propellant and it reacts chemically with your polyiol and isocyanate?, dude, I will use the same product that the manufacturer use
• You are searching the internet and posting on an engineering forum on how to do something that has the potential of a serious disaster!?!?!?, are looking too much tv?
• So what you are saying is that you are going to trick your customer into thinking that you are using disposable containers when you are turning the cylinders into refillable ones! I am not telling that, they purchase us the product installed, not the kit, they allow us to make our kits
• Once you fill the DOT39 cylinder and use the material, the cylinder becomes NON_REFILLABLE! You are trying to do an end run around your customer and also the LAW! are you serious?, we will not refill our used cans, is that your imagination!
• Do you know which propellant to use because your statement yes, I know, the same refrigerant gas used in the commercial products.(maybe a refrigerant?)frightens me. You could have a chemical reaction and the cylinder will explode and create a Bhopol gas cloud and kill everyone in the surrounding area! just look at the image below!. Not real!
• 
  
• If you truly want to do this, let us know so we can alert the authorities and I will grab my SCBA's and hunker down in my bomb shelter!, I will alert you, do not worryWhat you are trying to do is criminal and you will be criminally liable for any injuries and loss of life.You frighten me!, hey, you have not seen our other industrial solutions!
• thanks for your care any way, and now talking seriously and before you run away to your shelter, we have done this before with other liquids and compressed air in refillable cilynders, so we will not create a massacre as you have imagined.

I truly believe that you are DELUDED!

• I will use the same product that the manufacturer use - From your original statement (maybe a refrigerant?) you admitted you have NO IDEA what to use!
• Just look at the image below!. Not real! - Are you stating that the Bhopol disaster was not real?????
• hey, you have not seen our other industrial solutions! You are correct, and I absolutely do not want to!!!!!
• ONCE AGAIN!!!!! YOU FRIGHTEN ME!!!!!
• You do not have the knowledge or experience to do what you are thinking of doing.
• What you are saying is that the companies you work for or at will not let you bring in a CERTIFIED refillable cylinder? WHY NOT???
• Hire a competent licensed certified professional engineer that knows what they are doing because YOU DO NOT!!!

O.M. EXITS THE BUILDING AND RUNS FOR THE BOMB SHELTER

Mac - Could we be missing our morning caffeine here? Over-reacting just a wee tad bit. What do you actually suppose is the problem? The two ingredients are catalyzed by what precisely? Moisture in air for one thing. IF the OP knows what he is doing (yet to be demonstrated), he will find the regulated filling protocol, that also specifies any pre-purging with the propellant, how to keep the ingredients dry and non responsive to each other. He needs to simply test the ingredients (in a safe fume hood, or in open area, rural, with strong prevailing winds out to sea). Test for contact reactivity in moist air. Test again for reactivity in dry nitrogen. Test again with propellant vapor atmosphere. Test for decomposition - or get documents from the chemical manufacturer(s) that support the intended application (expanding foam).

Bhopal was the result of spilling a low molecular weight isocyanate that has a very high toxicity and vapor pressure. However, ANY vapor contact with even toluenediisocyanate can be deadly - in terms of irreversible lung damage.

I agree with you (I think), that OP should stick to what he knows, and he does not sufficiently know how to prepare his own kits for this. For all I know, there could be separate bladders for containing the two reagents, and the propellant educts these into propellant flow when valve is opened. Obviously, this would keep OP from even filling the new containers, expecially if they do not get it right.

James, yes I may have put my brain Ina pressure cooker on that day but I guess the OP completely missed my point. My point is that if you are so uncertain of a process I.E. The statement "maybe a refrigerant" frightened me because he did not even have a clue as to what to charge the cylinder with. I didn't go back and read my statements but I do believe that my quote regarding Bhopol was "a Bhopol like scenario". My comment was taken out of context and I believe that the language barrier was an issue also. To conclude, my concerns were that I wanted the OP to be careful and think about mixing chemicals that they are unfamiliar with. Simple as that. P.S. I also had several days where I was stuck in the office with no real work so I guess I let my cabin fever take hold. Let me pose a question to you. Would you ask an informal blog / forum to tell you how to do a process that has the potential to have severe consequences for yourself and those around you? I.E. Pressurizing a cylinder of chemicals with an unknown propellant? I also guess that the OP didn't realize I was a male so me posting the picture from "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" was a joke that he completely missed. Or maybe he was calling me a bitch? I don't know. In my work day I deal with life safety every minute and take safety very personally. Thank you for the reply. Bryan

male?

It is irresponsible of you to come to this web site and ask others to help you, when you obviously have NO CLUE what you are doing.

You seem to have purchased some cylinders without knowing what their purpose is, how to properly use/fill them, and even how to fill them.

I'm surprised that the company would even sell these cylinders to someone like who has no idea how to use them.

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I am surprised too, once the company have got my $$, they forgot about customer support.

You need this book maybe....

reference....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Wopr4pYhY

http://www.accurategasllc.com/clientuploads/products/disposables/Disposables%20Accurate%20Gas%20Catalog.pdf

Thanks for your help! I will review it in deep!

Dear Group, regretably my question was banalized maybe due to excess of sensibility of some users.

Of course I review the MSDS, ask for the manufacturers and do test in my factory on my risk with small quantities (i do not know how some one will run for the shelter for this). I have worked with rigid foam and its raw materials and I know the risk of mixtures and they are not risky.

I will send you pictures when it will be finished the kit!

I will not die! (I hope!)

I hope you looked very closely at the MSDS's. You do realize that isocyanates are an extreme carcinogen? Want to make sure that you take all the necessary precautions.

MDI is not "extreme carcinogen"

Dear Phoenix, once I have paid for the products the manufacturer sends me the e-mail of their technical support who forgot the promise of help me.

But do not worry!, it is not complex and pressures are very low, 80 to 100 PSI max!

The resins are poured into the cilynder, under low pressure, then valve is released to equilize in and out pressures. After that valve is closed, the cilynder is inverted and the propellant R134 is presurized onto the cylinder up to the desired pressure. Valves are closed, hosed disconected and ready to use. We have done it before with Ultra Ever Dry, with success.

When I sent my question I have not added more info to not get induced answers, but the ressult was some ladies being scandalized running to the bomb shelter instead of an analysis and some tips.

Any way Solar Eagle have sent me some info where a basic machine is being sold to my purposes!

Thanks for your comment and for not being schocke by my question!.

The concern you're hearing is not only from pressure, but also from possible reactions that may happen in your process.

And don't underestimate the pressures. Above 15 PSI is considered a pressure vessel by ASME, and even at 15 PSI there is a lot of energy stored.

Good luck!

I always get a chuckle when you mention "the ensuing carnage". Carnage is good, it helps select the species.

James,

Sometimes this forum is like a train wreck......

I don't want to stare, however, I cannot look away!

Oh... and sometimes I like to have a little fun at the expense of the OP too!

it was fun for you?, you are very weird...

Don't take Magyver seriously F!

This forum is a form of entertainment too.

You too will encounter postings where the irony just begs for a joke, and I hope you can join in the "fun".

How is your containerisation project humming along? All sorted yet?

Please do not treat 80 to 100PSI as inconsequential and safe.

There have been at least two fatalities in the mining industry in the last 11 months wherein a standard hose bib (valve) pressurized at 80PSI with water has been dislodged becoming a lethal projectile and puncturing one person's cranial cavity and puncturing the other person's chest cavity.

We care and do not want you or anyone else working on or near your process to be injured.

I would be very cautious when filling and pressurizing the cylinders as the compression process will generate significant heat which will increase the pressure dramatically.

It would be a good idea to closely monitor the cylinder temperature and pressure throughout the entire filling process and if needed build a cooling vat/container to control the temperature. (This will also allow more product and/or propellant to be introduced into the cylinders.)

Good luck and stay safe.

I work with pressurized cylinders every day, ranging from 360 psi to 2400 psi.

There is nothing about 80-100 psi that should be taken lightly.

Fundacion, I still do not understand why you have to fill a new non-refillable container? Why can you not use a CERTIFIED refillable container?

The ball is in your court!

When a worker access to customer facilities they do not allow us huge cilynders, only disposables, neither machiney to make foam. Refillable containers are not allowed.

The commercial kits of foam have not the color that customer ask, neither density and anti fire fire features that our mixtures have, so we want to produce our disposable kits ...and...

we are allowed by customers!

Actually, I can tell you how to pressurize the cylinders, however, I won't.

I have fitted many cylinders with pressurization fittings and never had one issue of leakage or failure!

You should not be doing this and it seems like you're trying to do something that is sneaky with your customers regulations about bringing certain types of cylinders into their buildings!

Have you asked your customers or told them of what you're planning on doing? They have the right to know what you are doing in their building and using around their employees!

I doubt it, that's why you're posting here to this forum, trying to be underhanded, sneaky, and maybe even criminal about it!

I wonder if any personal injury lawyers read this forum? They should because they could make a LOT of money off of the lawsuits filed against people like you!

Actually, I can tell you how to pressurize the cylinders, however, I won't.

I have fitted many cylinders with pressurization fittings and never had one issue of leakage or failure! we too, but never with this products

You should not be doing this and it seems like you're trying to do something that is sneaky with your customers regulations about bringing certain types of cylinders into their buildings! not real!, hey men you have imagination!, they allow us!

Have you asked your customers or told them of what you're planning on doing? yes, we did They have the right to know what you are doing in their building and using around their employees! yes, they know!

I doubt it, that's why you're posting here to this forum, trying to be underhanded, sneaky, and maybe even criminal about it! hey ma'am you could write a soap opera!

I wonder if any personal injury lawyers read this forum? I am pretty sure They should because they could make a LOT of money I hope! off of the lawsuits filed against people like you!

...and I am proud!

Now being serious, thanks for your opinion and time.

Well, I guess I completely misread and misunderstood your original posting.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes with my stiletto heels!

Carry on!

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No problem!

Thanks for your picture, a worker of mine who is very light and mannered would enjoy it!.

And now being seriuos...!

I will take in the best way your opinion, we have worked with acids, halogens, explosive powders, all with extreme care!.

I am not fool and I own a factory where we have tools, machinery and we will prepare the filling project with copper tubes, brass fittings and with very high skilled operators! so... do not need to run with your husband to the shelter..!

By the way, Solar Eagle sent me very valuable information, so I am more than satisfied, fisrt for his help, and second for the high responsability of your comments and to try to respect safety rules

bye!

and.. once I have completed the project, I will upload the steps!

You intend to fill your cylinders with "a propellant gas, maybe a refrigerant".

Then your workers intend to release the gas. In most countries it is illegal to release most refrigerant gases. Here's a reminder about the US Clean Air Act:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_(United_States)

and a specific warning:
http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/report-environmental-violations

Please let me know in which country the release is planned, so I can assist the planet's future and notify your local authorities about your plans.

Reminder

• Bhopal was the result of an isocyanate
• You state that your purpose for using this material is application of rigid foam insulation, so I'm sure you are aware of the result od contamination
• Don't dismiss the pressure hazard-I've seen experienced pipefitters unable to insert a threaded fitting at even 5-psig
• Finally, if your customers are so fussy, continue to use the kits, and bill them accordingly, noting the additional man-hours required by their security or lack thereof
  

Will the volume that the 4 cylinders produce be sufficient or in excess of your requirements? What will you do if you need more?

There is no danger of another Bhopal here. Fundacion will likely be using methylene diphenyl diisocyanate (MDI) or a similar diisocyanate to make rigid polyurethane foam. The isocyanate that killed some 2000 people at Bhopal, India was methyl isocyanate (MIC):

MIC:

MDI:

MDI is relatively non-hazardous, although some people become sensitized (allergic) after prolonged exposure to the vapors. There is no possible way that MDI can decompose to create MIC. Fundacion needs to be aware that the shelf-life of MDI is limited. It will gradually auto-polymerize to become a concrete-like material that is essentially useless.

Thanks Tribefan, I knew that!

MDI is not a risky substance and not a Bophal disaster will be created! (maybe only a factory disaster with myself as victim)

And of course, I am not the US Union Cardibe!

F,

Contrary to some of the less adventurous posters here I encourage you to go for it.

As you stated you are not going into this with your eyes closed and with no knowledge.

Everything is a calculated risk. Everything, and this risk is small.

Proceed with confidence.

I await the wrath of the forum.....

I agree, I have got several answers, I have been trated as

"destroyer of the world",

"responsible for the Second Bophol",

"Cheater of my customers",

"you have not idea",

"you posting in this reputable forum of reputable engineers"

"we should run to the autorithies to tell your felony"

"are some attorney in this forum to inform your practises"

even "please let me know to run to my shelter" heh eh eh eh e

But..

Are the same users that say the same to everyone, some friends of mine have posted questions (more structurated than mine) and they have got the same kind of answers of the same "guru" users!, I have checked it!.

Anyway, I have got several private messages of users that have not participated of this soap opera with very valuable information.

I hope you still share your decanting setup with us when it's sorted.. I'd like to see the finished foam augmented thingy too.

Happy Days.