Is Drainage the Answer??

During these varied tests, was radon considered? Radon daughters can appear very similar to black mold. Just a thought, might have absolutely nothing to do with your problem.

A 2 foot water table? Yikes! Just where is this drainage to occur? You might simply be providing an easier water intrusion point.

"In hopes to lover the water table and keep the water moving with a designated exit." Not sure what this means, but you won't be able to lower the water table.

Thanks for the comment. Yes, we have done two Radon test and both came back nagative.

Not to be entirely silly here, but I think I am going to be silly anyway!

My wife had a test done, and it only made her more nagative.

I know someone who nearly had liver failure from black mold growth due to water intrusion. Do not delay to repair problems, have all mold spores removed, or just move on to another location (free of mold). I know one of our city facilties had two inches standing water in the basement of one building after recent deluges. The friend who told me about it had to leave the building as it was affecting his ability to breathe quite adversely.

Get an allergist to test you and your family for mold and pollen sensitivities. You may be reacting to an irritant that most people do not bother. If you find that you are sensitive to a normally benign spore have your home tested for this allergen. You can now either attempt to remove the allergen or have the allergist desensitize you and your family.

We just did a full allergy testing and nothing.

When you get ill next time, have a blood test for high histamine levels. It is often easier to first confirm or refute if this is an allergic reaction than to identify which allergen is the root.

Do you have any kind of air conditioning system or furnace? How is the air distributed? You could have some sort of biological growth in the apparatus or air distribution system... I'm not clear, you said you were on grade, I'm thinking sloping hillside, yet the water table is only 2 feet, is that accurate? Is your septic discharge field up hill or down hill from the house? Are there septic systems from other houses above you? There could be any number of toxic substances causing your symptoms, could be naturally occurring or man made, it may not be related to the house at all, but the location..I would just move and forget about it.....but if you're determined and have generous resources(money) then I would take water and soil samples and have them tested by a toxicologist...If you can visibly see mold, this should be attacked with concentrated bleach, and the house vacated for a week or so for it to work and the air to clear....at the same time I would expose the wall outside and do the same....then do the waterproofing...There is no certain outcome, it might turn out to be a bad investment of time and money, not to mention the health hazard to you and your family...I would just move on...

Thanks for your comment! Yes we have an AC for the summer months and furnace for the winter. The distrribution is via ducting throughout the house. We have had the furnace, AC and ducts cleaned and disinfected on couple of occasions. This helped for a week but the issue shortly returned. To be clear, hill on one side sloping down to a level grade and slitly sloping up on the other side. the septic discharge field is up hill from the house and yes there are other septic up hill from me.

The fact that this helped for a short time is a clue...you might have a spore that propagates rapidly....I've dealt with a few....you might consider a strategically placed ultraviolet disinfection system for your air ducts, and possibly an electronic air cleaner...My experience is that this usually occurs in a house with pets, particularly cats for some reason....or it could be the house has a high humidity level and is closed up for long periods of time...I've had some that the ducts were so contaminated they just had to be replaced altogether...If the ducts are harboring growth deep in the fiberglass, the duct cleaning will not work, it only cleans the surface...

http://www.freshaireuv.com/assets/assets-public/literature-marketing/TUV-MM-UVGIDG.pdf

What part of TO (or GTA) are you in?

Reason for asking is that some areas are sandy- especially by the lake- and others are clay, not that much gravel until you get up towards the Oak ridge moraine or west by Guelph. If you have a house built in 1987 with septic you must be well out from the city.

2 foot water tables just don't happen around here- maybe the elevations in a sampling well, but not in regular ground conditions unless you have a clay layer with a perched water table. If I were in your shoes I'd cut a French drain across the slope between the house and septic field to ensure it isn't coming anywhere near the house; either that or a retaining wall with suitable drainage behind taking it well away from the house.

Since you live in Canada, you might want to get a certified home inspector from the Mike Holmes website. I used to watch his show on HGTV and he seems like a very honest and forthright guy, so I'd trust an inspector that he recommends.

Over the years he has dealt with hundreds of moisture, mould, and air quality issues.

http://mikeholmesinspections.com/inspectors/approved-inspectors

The house itself might be "healthy" and non-toxic.

Australia there have been some cases of modern buildings being so well sealed that the occupants were depleting the O2 and such just making themselves sicker.

Is there any air exchange happening?

Do you run a dehumidifier? When you say mold 4 feet up off the floor, I've witnessed this same issue in my home, where it was clear there was a stratification of the air with high humidity stratifying above the cold floor. And everything was covered with black spots, with a very definite level of growth off the floor.

This was back before I installed central air mine pulls air from the basement and blows it to the upper floor (which is not optimal, but it stirs the air in the basement (which is about 6 feet below grade).

You probably have lots of humidity from lake Ontario. Some of the water vapor may be from the damp concrete surfaces given you water table.

But as others have indicated, you need to see if your issue is mold. And as SE asks, do you have AC and does it pull air from the basement area.

We run a dehumidifier at the beginning of spring and throughout the summer months. The central air pulls for the basement as well as from the main floor.

I went through this a long while back when I lived up North and you are on the right track.

If you want to correct the mold problem you must first get the water away from the walls and floor that are below grade and keep it away.

In order to do this you will need to install French drains on the uphill side, on both sides that are below grade, continuing across the front and downhill away from the home.

The cost is rather high to do it right as you must dig completely around the house starting at least 3 feet below the lowest downhill grade and the drains must continue at a 45 degree angle from the downhill corners of the foundation far enough to allow the water to dissipate.

CAUTION! Be sure to properly taper the trench walls back or use approved shoring to keep the dirt from caving in while digging and accessing the excavation(s).

Once the uphill below grade walls are exposed you will need to high pressure wash them until clean, then treat with anti-mold chemicals, allow ample drying time, then seal the walls with a high strength epoxy (1st choice) or other water proof membrane. The seal(s) must continue below the lowest parts of your foundation.

Once the walls have been properly sealed rock and AB (sand& gravel) must be installed in the bottom of the trenches then a system of adequately sized, perforated drain pipes must be installed on top of the aggregate & sand in a connected configuration that surrounds the entire house, collects at each of the downhill corners, then drains away from the house far enough to dissipate all collected water.

After the drain pipe system is installed the piping must be covered with AB sand & gravel to a depth within 12-18 inches from top of grade in the trenches so that when water penetrates the topsoil the sand & gravel quickly absorb it and allow the water to migrate into the drain pipes.

This is a very vague description and you really need to perform a search on "French Drainage System" to get accurate details on how the system works and what it takes to install it.

I suggest you ask around you area and talk to local contractors about going to your home to perform a walk-through then provide you with their recommendations and cost estimate.

If you then cannot afford to hire a contractor, at least you will have a better idea of what needs to be done.

By the way;

Once you get the outside cleaned up and sealed you will then have to eliminate the mold inside the home which in many cases require a certified mold abatement procedure to be executed. (Costly)

In the area where I used to live often homes with mold issues are condemned and the owner forced to tear down and start over so the sooner you address the issue the better off you will be financially.

Good luck and stay safe.

Just some added info - when we waterproof the walls the process was to pressure wash, allow to dry and cover the block walls with blue skin and a dimple board. A weeping tile was added at the time but it was added at the base where the walls and slab meet. Blue skin is a vapor/ water proof material which I am thinking should stop any migration from the outside, at lease were the walls are concern. A side note - thank you all for your comments they are all helpful!!

You have a septic tank but no septic tile field. That essentially means you have no sewage system. The tank is simply allowed to fill and overflow. As it is on the high side and your back yard is the low side, this overflow is essentially flowing under your house and perhaps even seeping through the wall on the lower level. It does not take a genius to know why you are getting sick. Everything you dump, or flush, or enters by any means into your septic tank leaves you and your family exposed. Many bacteria of pathogenic quality can enter. Many chemicals of toxic nature can enter. How would this house even get an occupancy permit? Does one exist?

I suggest you hire a septic specialist and professional engineer to oversee the problem. You are also advised to have your septic system pumped and sealed to prevent any further overflows that will make you and your family sick. You should also contact your health inspector in the area. Contact the local health unit for advice and perhaps inspection. You may have to pump your tank every couple of days until your problem is corrected. You and your family as well as guests and neighbours are at risk. Treat this problem very seriously and good luck.

I have both a septic tank and a septic field which are both up hill from my house. The bathroom in the basement flows to a sewage tank located in the basement and a sewage pump, pumps to the septic tank.

Whew, OK. I read "no weeping tile" and construed that as no septic tile field. However, you should have the system inspected as it is suspect and 27 years old. Tracer dye testing may be required. You should also sample the water in the back yard test hole or dig a new one that is 2 feet deep. An engineer well versed in hydrogeology, geochemistry, and microbiology is still needed. The local health unit should be able to provide some assistance, but the Min of Environment may also be required as the do employ hydrogeologists. Both agencies will or should be able to design and perform the sampling needed and provide some constructive feedback.

Dehumidifying will help if it is dampness or humidity problem. Drainage will remove the water that causes the dampness - if it definitely is a water problem. None of the actions along these lines you have already taken seem to work.

You say it is an air problem, or perhaps an allergy problem and it makes you sick. But does this affect all of you? - all at the same time - and all the year round - and other people in the area as well.

Or could it be something in the water you drink? - or something you eat?

Air quality tests and medical checks may suggest everything was OK when the test was carried out, but what would the test indicate if carried out at the time you actually felt ill.

You say you live in a 'bowl'. It could be possible for this to 'fill' with 'transient' air contaminants enough to affect you at the time - eg, CO, CO2 or O2 depletion, and humidity - that will not be there at the time when you test the air.

I would be inclined to set up recorders to monitor the air for a meaningful period to rule this out (relatively cheap to hire) considering the alternative of spending a lot of money on expensive drainage systems that might not work.

Has anyone dealt with the guys at building science? http://www.buildingsciencelabs.com/consulting/ I am thinking of using them to conduct a investigation

I noticed in your message that you said " I am the house that is in the bowl " .

I am not sure how a French drain could be installed, if all of the downhill slopes terminate at your house. .

I would go with the moving idea now while you got you health and your still wearing your shirt.

You have what I will call a Florida basement house. Here is what I advise:

Completely remove your basement from any conditioned air circulation to the rest of the house.

Strip all interior masonry and concrete surfaces in the basement to surface free of coatings, etc., then apply Aquron (Google it for the details; it is a special proprietary product.)

After Aquron coat all masonry and concrete surfaces with a low modulus, water polymerized epoxy (100 percent solids except for water; there are several available by Googling.)

Coat all surfaces, including wood framed walls with Moldont from Encasement, again, a Google. Do not use it sparingly.

Do your best to air seal all floor penetrations, door openings, etc. between the basement and the house, above.

Dehumidify the basement with a 24/7 system that pumps (dumps) all accumulated water on almost a continuing basis to a trapped drain.

Place an ozone generator in the basement. Be sure the device has a water vapor dessicator with an element that can be periodically replaced. You may find one that can be regenerated by the equipment. The dehumidifier will remove any water vapor that is dumped into the air by regeneration.

See if your HVAC system can be retrofitted with an ozone generator as a side stream feed. The HEPA filter should help, but it should be one that you can swap out with another while you clean the other (physically and chemically, as recommended by the manufacturer). Be sure to use your bathroom vents during all bathing. And your kitchen hood vent for all cooking. If winter dryness becomes an issue in sleeping quarters, place a very small humidifier as close to the sleepers head as practical.

Do not despair. Aspergillus or whatever is growing in your house can be beaten, but it is a war to be fought on many fronts.

I'm in agreement with kevinm on this one, in that the septic system my be the culprit. First, it's uphill of the house. How far away from the house wasn't stated.

Secondly, if the groundwater level in that area is only 2 feet below grade then there isn't enough vertical separation between the bottom of the septic system (drywell?) and distribution laterals and the groundwater. I honestly don't know how a high groundwater level, that's interfering with the Aerobic digestion process in the absorption trenches, can possibly work or be good. High groundwater with prevent and disrupt the bacteria from properly removing the water products in the untreated sewage....it will remain untreated before dispersing into the underlying soil mass.

In this state (New York), the regulations state that the SEASONAL high groundwater level must be at least 24-inches below the bottom of the absorption trenches and bottom of drywells/seepage pits. If underlying rock is present, that distance must be increased to a minimum of 48-inches.

I assume that, due to the relatively high groundwater level, that your wastewater is not getting properly treated (biologically) and that the groundwater transports the waste load full of all types of microbes directing into your house via seepage through the concrete block foundation wall, which are very porous.

I would strongly suggest that you contact your local Health Department and chew the fat with them. If need be, bore a small diameter pit, say 6-inches in diameter, let the groundwater seep into in for at least 48-hours (covered), then take several samples of the groundwater seepage at various depths using sterilized water sample bottles. Have those samples tested for the presence of COLIFORM BACTERIA. If there are strong indications of Coliform bacteria (high colony counts), then the septic system is highly suspect, and most likely has failed. Naturally, untreated wastewater, full of microbes (some of which may include pathogens), will make you deathly sick.

You may have to construct a new subsurface septic system in a different location downhill from the lowest point in your basement. I sure hope you have enough available vacant and undisturbed land on you parcel in order to install a new subsurface wastewater disposal system. If you do not, there are alternatives systems available which must be approved by the Health Dept. having jurisdiction. These are mostly energy intensive aerobic digestion systems. you may also be required to disinfect the treated (polished) wastewater with ozone or UV light prior to discharge into the soil mass.

Signed,

CaptMoosie, PhD, P.E.

Interested enough, I had the ground water tested a few days ago and the result came back today. Sure enough its contaminated with ecoli! The only issue with this is that the sample was collected about 60feet from the house. the health department is telling me there is no way this could be the cause. This is the closest lead I have, and I am not letting this go... I am going to do a close test to the house as per your suggestion! in the mean time, Is there air testing that can be done to look for coliform? Or is there a way to link this?

Get the test repeated for the ground water and this time have a complete scan to include total coliform, E coli, fecal strep, background and ask for complete dilutions to get actual numbers. A ratio may be obtained to define human or animal waste. it does take professional interpretation. I would further suggest a complete nutrient scan of the water ( total P, DRP, TOC, NO3, NO2, as well as LAS or other activated substances. Dye testing still important. The health inspector can be very wrong about the distance bacteria can travel. You may even want to dig a few more test holes closer to the tile field or tank. Has anyone checked the tank for leaks?

Listen to the Capn M, he provides good advice.

Thanks Kevin. You went into it which much more detail than I did. You provided very good information on EXACTLY what to test for.

And yes, as you said, dye testing (for tank leakage) is extremely important. A relatively inexpensive food dye (like red or a fluorescent color that is not naturally occurring) can be purchased for this test. Flush it down the drain or toilet and monitor the color of the groundwater in the observation pits dug between the septic tank and the house. The length of the test may take a couple of days, depending on the transmissivity qualities of the soil and the horizontal distances involved. I suggest monitoring the pits for no less than 5 days.

Well well well, just as I assumed!Can you tell me the actual results of the test, such as groundwater depth from the surface, size and the depth of the test pit, if you baled out the water and let it seep back into the pit, and the ecoli count?

While it may be possible that the pit became contaminated or you used non-sterile (and thus contaminated) sample bottles, it is quite easy to get positive ecoli results IF the groundwater is saturated with raw sewage and the it's shallow. The seepage can be transported horizontally quite a long distance from the originating source, depending on the encountered in-situ soils present.

What are the prevalent shallow soils throughout your property, and more specifically, at the point were your took the water samples to be tested? Are they sandy or gravelly? Any hint of silts and clays. Silt stains on your finger tips will feel like toothpaste when rubbed against your front teeth. Clay soils will leave stains on your skin.

If you don't get satisfaction from your local health dept., then I suggest that they come to your house and conduct the test themselves, or better yet, have them observe an independent Licensed Professional Engineer (well experienced in waterwater treatment, it's disposal, and environmental testing) conduct the test before their very eyes.

I'm still betting on a failed septic system and high groundwater transported into house basement as the prime culprit. I have seen many such failures and resulting problems over my years as an engineer. It's too bad that I'm not a Registered Engineer in Canada, or else I'd travel to you and check this problem out for myself.

Let us know how you make out with the test and the health department, okay?

Ok... I'll be digging a test hole closer to the house at the lowest point tomorrow and having the water tested. The test hole will be about 2feet from the house but around 20 feet from the septic drain title. The soil type is clay. I went through some note that the original owner left and noticed that the septic bed was moved in 1989. What reason? I don't know. The notes talked about the new one. It's a raise mantal bed (class 5?). Sand was brought in to raise the bed. I presume to allow for drainage. I don't have the details for the test I did, counts... The sample was taken from where groundwater exits at the edge of my property to a creek ( could be a spring). The container I used was one provided by the health department for well water testing. As a mater of fact, they only test drinking water from wells, I had to pretend it was for that purpose. Now that this is a lead, I'll find a professional organization to do the next set of testing and request the info suggested. Thanks guys and I will keep you posted.

Folks, I have been there and done it with this type of problem. Trying to fight it on the outside, when there is no visible water flowing intrusion through walls or floor anywhere is like baling the ocean. If septic were the problem, you would the smell would be a giveaway.

Chocked sewer line can be a problem. You need to check out that all the drainage systems are in working condition and functioning properly. Even you need to investigate that the outlet pipe line to drain water out is not blocked or chocked. In case if you have any such doubt just call sewer backup cleaning company in New York City for immediate action so that it may not turn to a huge problem.