Portable Generator

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sportsman-7-000-Watt-Propane-Gas-Electric-Start-Portable-Generator-GEN7000LP/202222975

Not sure what you mean "need 5 to 6 mw".

Is this meters of water? You need to quote your pumps specs to get a proper answer for this.

These are great for standby and emergency use, but if you want a dependable work horse, I would go diesel....What is the run rating, continuous or intermittent? What are the pump requirements, hp fla continuous rating?

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/quick_search.php

From the sounds of it, you're asking for opinions on the model etc. selected.

Never used a propane powered genset, but I do have a Generac XPE 8000 that is pushing 200 hours. It's not the quietest but was a fair bit cheaper than a Honda unit, and does everything the manufacturer said it would. So I'm happy with their product (personal opinion).

I'd steer away from diesel etc. just because you're not going to use it too often, and the last thing you need to do is have one more type of fuel to forget about. Doesn't sound like the efficiency or run life would mean much to you, and the cost would buy one of Generac's dedicated home install units with auto start and everything.

Just remember to run it every month or so to make sure it works when you need it to. And don't run low on propane- I somehow can't imagine doing truck deliveries through forest fires!!

If the load involves only the well pump, you can provide the pump motor data to the generator manufacturer, who should, if they are competent, be able to confirm the motor starting capability. This may, depending on manufacturer, allow you to reduce the size and therefore the cost.

For example, the Leroy-Somers alternator end, is capable of KW for KW of motor starting capacity, coupled to an engine of sufficient capacity.

One question I have, what is done to protect the propane tank system from fire?

The tank is 100 ft. from the house, right next to the well. I clear "down to bare earth" for a substantial radius around this site. Relatively fire safe.

I Germany, we often "bury" such tanks in a proper brick built "hole in the ground", which is then filled with what I would call "Ballast", small stones....such tanks have a special coating to prevent rusting, but have to be "dug out" every 10 years for a safety inspection.

The above ground ones are also inspected every 10 years and either repainted or replaced.

If there is then no stuff to burn around the "head" of the tank, the fire may singe the grass (should be kept short), it should not be a problem, especially if you can keep it wet.....as you are obviously intending to do....,

I am very used to "Tank-Gas" after almost 30 years of using it with no problems, other than a frozen regulator once, due to the delivery man not resetting the safety cap, rain got in and froze, stopping gas delivery!!!

Its a good method of heating etc..

My thoughts:

• both the electrical and gas installation should be performed by professionals
• There are many other things you can be doing now to protect your home. The most effective is to create and maintain a fire brake, clear of brush, tall grass and flammable debris around the perimeter of your property.
• A garden hose can be effective in knocking down spot fires caused by flying embers and slow moving ground cover fires, and protecting your roof from flying embers. However, it doesn't stand a chance against a fast moving fire involving tall brush or trees, or an involved structure.
• Be aware of the capacity of your well. You are in a drought area and water tables are lower then normal.
• Don't try to fight it alone. Always have a companion to keep watch on your surroundings.
• Always have an exit, and be aware of it at all times. Never let the fire get between you and the exit.

Just to add to my comments: If you are told to evacuate, do so. I realize that it is difficult to abandon your home in such a situation, but your life is far more valuable to your family than a house! In addition, by staying, and trying to fight a loosing battle, you will be diverting precious resources from those fighting the fire, and putting other's lives at risk if you have to be rescued.

Liznjerry,

What are the specs on your pump.

If that is really the only thing you want to run in a fire situation, then get the rating on the pump.

If you do not know the model number or capacity, look at the circuit breaker that is installed for the well pump and size the gen-set accordingly.

Even if you over rate the Gen-set, that's OK because you would rather have a bit more power than not enough when the fire is bearing down on my property.

I still haven't found the Generac model 6100. Is there a specific website or different model number?

Like what others have said, with out knowing the pump specifications, we can't make an educated recommendation for the get-set. And if you plan on running other appliances/ equipment with th gen-set, then you need to add those loads too when selecting the gen-set. As far as running on propane, I had a 7.5KW Onan gen-set that I converted to dual fuel, gasoline/ propane and while running on propane my fuel consumption almost doubled compared to running on gasoline. My house was off grid so I was running the generator about 8 hours a day,so it was more economical to run gasoline and deal th the hassle than having the propane truck show up every 3 weeks at $300 bucks a pop.

Being we are in a drought here in California and the brush firs are already starting to flair, you should also consider investing in a substantial (1500gal) water storage tank with a 2 inch outlet. →click here for some tank suppliers← Plastic tanks are reasonably priced and cheap insurance.

Stay safe and hydrated

It sounds like you are proposing to stand your ground when the next wildfire approaches, using your well water to try to defend your house. Perhaps you should also invest in an underground shelter that can last you a few hours while the ashes of your house are cooling, just in case the wildfire decides to call your bluff.

If fire fighting is the intended use, I would go another route...

Keep this full and use a motorized pump for a booster....

Hydraulic lifting provides pretty good pressure by itself....

A swimming pool is even better, and you can enjoy it when you are not using it for fire fighting. A gasoline powered pump is a lot less expensive than a generator with equivalent output.

Just checked on the net. A cheep 10,000 gal above ground pool costs about $600 and a gasoline powered pump with an output of 35 gpm @ 50 PSI is about $200.

These portable tanks are used with large fires, the tankers drop their load in the tanks and go for refill while the water is used from the portable...

http://chicagoareafire.com/blog/tag/pumper-tanker-at-fire-scene/

Without an elevated water supply you would need a very dependable pump though, or maybe two...

This was discussed on a recent thread....

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/91927/3000-Gallon-Aluminum-Water-Tank-Gauge

Unfortunately portable tanks (sometimes called porta tanks or dump tanks) are not practical for a situation the OP is describing (at least to an Ex-fire Chief with many years fighting fires with some as described). They range in size from approx. 1,000 gal up to about 4,000gal but take time to set them up with tarps underneath, set up the associated hoses to draft (pump) from them and the water leveling hoses between portable tanks. They are also too expensive for most residences to purchase for a 'Maybe will be used situation".

The major deficiencies with the system are: the need for water; the cost and availability of portable tanks (local fire depts. don't loan them out so you would have to buy your own); having a suitable place to locate them for refill and drafting from; not having tankers (now called "tenders") available to fill/refill the port-a-tanks; the distance between refill and dumping sites; number of tankers available; number of port-a-tanks available; access to the fire site; positioning tenders so their dump chutes can access the tanks; personnel to monitor and operate the water supply; weight restrictions on roads and bridges on the refill/dump route; enough larger tenders to haul the major part of the water; and numerous other problems that must be taken care of. Also it takes a substantial amount of water to wet down or fight a interface fire such as described by the OP. An 1-1/2" hose with a fog nozzle on can use in excess of 100gpm and require 160psi from the pump.

Often tenders can't get to the location because of fire, weight and maneuvering restrictions. Finally, unless you buy your own, these tanks will not be available at the time of a interface fire.

Use a in-ground pool for swimming enjoyment and fire protection (20'x40' holds 30,000gal), otherwise use a large above ground pool with a metal liner outside the plastic liner. Get a 10hp self priming gasoline powered pump and have a 2-1/2" or 3" pipe or hard rubber hose connected for the pump suction. Pipe through a manifold for the pump discharges as needed. Keep the pool completely full at all times. Try to locate this in an area that tenders could safely reach if necessary to refill (this would probably be hard to do but helps). When using the water use it sparingly. Just enough to put the fire out, you may need every drop of the water in the supply pool.

If the operation in the picture was set up, it would require: (assuming fill site is 5 miles from the fire) one or more pumper(s) to fill the tenders at the fill site; 10 or more 3,000 tankers; 3-4 port-a-tanks; a pumper to draft from the port-a-tanks; 1 or more pumper(s) located at the fire to supply the hoses; and possibly relay pumpers to pump the water from the drafting pumper to the fire location pumper(s). Minimum total pieces of equipment needed include; 3 pumpers, 10 tenders, 3 port-a-tanks and a whole lot of hoses plus manpower.

http://www.fol-da-tank.com/

http://www.firefighternation.com/article/rural-firefighting-ops/basic-rural-water-shuttle-ops

Also, what do your neighbors use? With some modifications for your site that may be your solution.

Good Luck

Some excellent replies, also some good advice. The only thing I would change is this... Use a diesel powered pump not gasoline (petrol here in Aus.)

Being a current firefighter with 40 years up, I remember back in the 'good old days' when our tankers were petrol powered, it was too risky. The old trucks we used in those days were petrol powered, as were the pumps. In hilly country and in low ratio 4 wheel drive the trucks had a habit of vaporising. Likewise, when we were stalled in the area of fire, the pumps would also vaporise. What a life, sitting in front of a bush-fire with the truck unable to move and the firefighters unable to protect the truck or themselves.

The fire authority quickly changed everything to diesel after 2 crews were burned to death with their trucks in a bad fire year.

Just a word from an old, and lucky firefighter.

If, despite everything I have said so far, you are determined to save your home from a wild land fire; remember the words to the well known Kenny Rodger's song:

You've got to know when to hold them

Know when to fold them

You have to know when to walk away

Know when to run

Hi Liznjerry,

I'm sorry, I have to laugh when gringo Greg & old salt mention a in ground or above ground pool.

These guys must be having an off night because 99.999999% of the time their answers are outstanding !

Let's look at those answers:

An above ground or in ground pool : 1. There is a drought? 2. In hot weather, pool water evaporates, water that evaporates, does you no good. 3. If the local firemen see your pool, they will suck it dry leaving you with a 30,000 gallon skateboard park or a $ 600.00 empty plastic baggie.

A better way to store a good supply of water safely and with very little evaporation would be to get a water storage tank or several storage tanks. You can build a cinder block wall around the tank for protection , these tanks can also be buried below ground, since the water will be used for fire fighting, it doesn't need to potable, it can be rainwater, well water, etc. About the only problem you will have from long term storage is algae growth and that could be easily controlled by using a liquid algaecide that you can get at the local pool supply store.

Evaporation? That's what the well is there for.

Firemen sucking it dry? If its for my residence, they can have all they want.

Firemen only use your water if it is the last resort and it is absolutely necessary.

It takes a lot more water to put out fires than a few hundred or thousand gallons.

If you must keep water usage to a minimum, install a compressed air foam system (cafs) to the storage water. One gallon of cafs water provides the same firefighting capability of 10 gallons of only water. Problem---> Got an extra $30,000 - $60,000 for one of these plus the foam which most deteriorate within a year at the most. Also needs to be tested weekly.

Me, I'll invite the dept. over at any time and have them enjoy my pool which is automatically refilled by the well and a level switch. Cost of level switch, $20?.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Some of the "modern foams" still use proteins as their active component but all attempts are made not to use animal derived proteins. They smell "stinky", leave a strong odor, don't work as well as other types and are expensive. Most of the newer types are also biodegradable. There are now many different foam formulations for many different situations. Most fire companies carry a class "A" foam for class "A" fires and a class "B" petroleum fires. Many now can be used as either a class A or Class B, all with the same foam.

Basically the foam acts as a surfactant which wets the surface and keeps the foam on the surface. That is why you see it used so much by the forest fire services at interface fire (definition: An interface fire is a wildland fire that puts communities and people at risk.)

If you want to learn more on the subject of compressed air foam systems the following are good sources. Give them a chance by reading some or all of them. There are numerous aspects of cafs that utilize many of the same principals and questions that are discussed on CR4.

Foam Terminology---> http://www.chemguard.com/about-us/documents-library/foam-info/foam-terminology.htm

Compressed Air Foam Systems---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_foam_system

CAFS - Straight answers for the beginner or the expericienced user.---> http://compressedairfoamsystem.com/compressed_air_foam_systems.htm

Understanding CAFS, Class A Foam Nozzle Technology---> http://www.darley.com/cafs/entry/understanding-cafs-class-a-foamnozzle-technology

Its a lot of interesting reading but anyone will certainly get something(s) out of either part or all of it.

Don't know why you got the OT but YES, pigs guts were one a source of firefighting foams. Not much now, but is was in the past.

Good Luck, Old Salt

1 OT? You can do better than that!

I guess the contributor of that one doesn't want to know that ammonia was originally obtained from the steam distillation of deer antlers.

Oh, by the way several drugs have been derived from male horse urine. Heard it was quite a difficult project to collect that.

One of the most modern medicines for the treatment of type 2 diabetes is Byetta, a 39-amino-acid peptide, an insulin secretagogue, with glucoregulatory effects. It is a subcutaneous injectable. It is obtained from the spit saliva of the Gila Monster! May not directly put out fires but it helps keep those who do at the fire scenes where they can put them out!

https://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/ReptilesAmphibians/Facts/FactSheets/Gilamonster.cfm

The Gila monster is one of only two species of venomous lizards (its cousin, the Mexican beaded lizard, is the other). It can bite quickly and hold on tenaciously. Rather than injecting venom through hollow fangs like venomous snakes do, Gilas have enlarged, grooved teeth in their lower jaw. When they bite, their powerful jaws chew the venom in through capillary action along the grooves in these teeth. Gila monster venom is about as toxic as that of a western diamondback rattlesnake.

Yea, pig guts may be OT to you but it used to put out the fires.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I assume that you mean 5 -6 KW, not mw.

That being said, Propane is about 75% efficient as "petrol." A 10 KW "petrol" generator will produce about 7.5 KW on Propane. The GENRAC 6110 is a 5.5 KW machine which is not sufficient for your stated needs. The GENRAC 5871 is a 10 KW Guardian Standby Generator that is somewhat less than portable, but is automatic start.

This site will provide some information on propane/bi-fuel conversions: runpropane.com, if you insist on a "petrol" generator.

The only reason I suggested a water storage tank is because we are in a drought here in California and chances are your well won't be able to recover fast enough during a high demand like fire fighting.

We don't know if the OPs' have a swimming pool or not, if they do that's all the better, but if they don't, a plastic water storage tank is a lot cheaper to maintain. As far as protecting the storage tank- if the fire is close enough to threaten the tank (steel or plastic) they need to get the hell out of there and be quick about!!

I also live in a dry area in South Africa. I would firstly have the capability of the well tested.If the well can deliver sufficient water leave the water in the well where it is safe.

What is the primary purpose of the generator? protection from a wildfire, or just helping out if you have a power outage?

You do not state how much land you own,but if you have several acres,you could fence

it in and buy a few sheep.

They will keep the ground clear of brush and grass,and provide a fire break,as well as

a means of going to sleep on restless nights.

Use only female sheep for this purpose,no rams.

Remember what Smokey The Bear said:"Only Ewes can prevent forest fires!"

Sorry guys.It was just toooo easy!

Yes. Removing all combustible materials from the vicinity of the thing being protected is another option. Removing the thing being protected from all the combustible materials is a third.

And 5 to 6 milliwatts is an incredibly small pump.

Foam Safe Fire Protection system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbPsAWnPVYk

Hi, just a query, how much foam do you store in this system? Does the system have a shutdown if the foam tank enpties? If foam runs out in firefighting, then water only is delivered by the pump, when this happens the water washes off the foam undoing all the good work.