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Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 6:29 PM

In our new project, consultant designed a condominium with 230V. Normally, we meet single phase supply to building at 240V. With low voltage 230V, what would be the consequences to home appliances normally rated at 220-240V ?

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#1

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 6:55 PM

I cannot see how this is legal if the condominium single phase supply voltage doesn't match the single phase voltage of the country or state the condominium is being built in.

Is the condominium's distribution transformer really going to be 230V out and your saying the rest of the local single phase supply is 240V or is this just a typo on the consultants design documents?

I feel like we are not being told the whole story here.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 7:05 PM

Consultant try to reduce busduct size and extend the volt drop to 6%. As a result, single phase voltage end up at 230V.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 7:24 PM

I don't see how this is legal. Down here and in other countries the single phase voltage must be within a certain range but the nominal voltage must be the nominal voltage of the country or state, 240V at the outlets in this case, not 230V because someone wants to save some money on busduct.

Given the information here it sounds like your consultant doesn't know what he/she is doing. What country is this in that would allow this in their electrical codes and standards (or did the consultant not bother to read them)?

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#10
In reply to #4

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 8:52 PM

Don't skimp on fire insurance!

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#35
In reply to #1

Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 2:36 AM

Let me rephrase that, "WE ARE BEING TOLD A STORY!!"

It makes no real sense at all. Google could give a good answer for anyone with a modest understanding of the internet..

We do not know exactly WHERE this is and we do not where the devices were/will be bought!!

Most devices that I know of for the nominal 230 VAC 50 Hz world, will work OK between 220 and 240 VAC, with few if any exceptions......

There is a reasonable explanation here about the mains:-

Mains_electricity_Voltage_levels

Whether this paragraph from that link can answer the possible meaning/question of this blog I do not know:-

Voltage levels

Most of Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, New Zealand and most of South America use a supply that is within 6% of 230 V. In the UK and Australia[3] the nominal supply voltage is 230 V +10%/−6% to accommodate the fact that most supplies are in fact still 240 V. Japan, Taiwan, North America and some parts of northern South America use a voltage between 100 V and 127 V. The 230 V standard has become widespread so that 230 V equipment can be used in most parts of the world with the aid of an adapter or a change to the equipment's connection plug for the specific country.

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#2

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 6:58 PM

Using only the sparse information you provided I would guess that the consequence will be that things should work. 220V<230V<240V

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#3

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 7:02 PM

What I meant is whether there is any advantages or disadvantages using 230V ? We normally use 240V. Would there be problem overheating to appliances at high amp ?

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#26
In reply to #3

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 8:57 AM

No. The only appliances which would have higher amps are ones with a motor. Then the shaft power stays practically constant, so amps rise in proportion to volts reduced. Most appliances - kettle, toaster, cooker, TV are close to a resistive load and the amps fall as volts fall. Power output falls as volts2, but unlikely to be noticeable.

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#6

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 7:32 PM

Depending on the local legalities, the electricity supplier should deliver a specified voltage at the meter. Voltage drop due to conductor resistance is normally limited to 5% (in the USA, anyway). This is one reason why motors on nominal 240V systems are usually rated at 230V; the utilization voltage being somewhat less than grid voltage.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 7:47 PM

Post #4 above indicates the consultant is trying to be cheap and undersizing the design.

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#18
In reply to #7

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 12:28 AM

That could be, but 6% is not all that gross, even if it exceeds USA or other standards. We don't yet know where the voltage is being measured, anyway.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 12:32 AM

Based on the information provided, the poor condo owner's wall sockets.

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#23
In reply to #19

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 4:13 AM

Then what's the problem, other than some legalism about 5% versus 6% voltage drop?

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 7:37 AM

I may just be dense, again. Would somebody please explain to me where 6% comes from? A 6% change from 240 is 6*2.4=14.4. So a 6% drop in voltage will be 240-14.4=225.6, not 230.

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#32
In reply to #24

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 6:37 PM

220 < 225.6 < 240. (This sounds almost familiar.)

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#29
In reply to #23

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 3:13 PM

Really just the legalism, but again it really depends on local codes and standards (the location country still hasn't been mentioned that I can see).

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#8

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 8:16 PM

It is obvious you do not understand electrical generation or supply, or losses.

You are in the wrong line of work.

Maybe sanitary engineering is more your calling.

If you supply 230V to appliances rated at 220-240V, do you have any clue what the consequences would be?

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#15
In reply to #8

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 11:26 PM

I do understand 230V is in the operating range of 220-240V. But this looks abnormal in normal practice for me. Just seek for some sharing of experience and opinion.

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#16
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Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 11:42 PM

Well it looks abnormal to me too and against code (again country specific) regardless of if no load or full load conditions are assumed on a new designed installation.

What country is this in anyway?

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 11:43 PM

What is your function and your level of authority?

Are there codes in your country? Were they followed?

Can you change anything, based on the comments from an anonymous forum?

Good luck. Don't sign off on anything that might incriminate you when the fire starts.

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#9

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 8:49 PM

This is out of my sandbox but I'll go ahead and ask anyway.

Is the 230V unloaded, with a typical load or at a reasonable full load? It sound to me like this thread is about undersized conductors. If so then I would think the E=IR drop would be more significant at full load than a properly built system.

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#11

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 9:26 PM

The voltage alone doesn't tell the whole story, as you drop the voltage you raise the amperage, the same amount of current is required...as the amperage goes up the wire size to carry it increases...

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#12

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 10:39 PM

I'm mildly stunned at the collection of conclusions people are jumping to about this question. The tiny amount of relevant information regarding what this consultant designed of this condominium and how a lower voltage was selected convinces me that nothing posted is valid. For all we know the wiring could be gauged so that at full current through each circuit branch the voltage drop from 240 VAC will be no less than 230 VAC, a reasonable -4.2% drop. Then again the distribution transformers in this condominium might be incorrectly selected to produce only 230 VAC unloaded.

We just do not know enough to say if this is a benign misunderstanding or an accident waiting to happen.

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#13

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 10:44 PM

two 115v's?

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#14

Re: Operating at 230V

07/13/2015 11:25 PM

Just bump the transformer tap up one notch.

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#20

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 12:53 AM

It looks like most comments here not agreed with 230V. Is this really so bad to have 230V in condo rather than 240V ? (just ignore regulation etc for a while). Is this mean this is practically not accepted at all ? But some home appliances rated at 220-240V.

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#21
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Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 2:58 AM

If the appliances are rated for 220-240V, what on earth could possibly be wrong with 230?

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#27
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Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 10:37 AM

Exactly. Several posters have gone into this deeply and answered questions that the OP hadn't asked. Perhaps he should have, but didn't.

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#30
In reply to #20

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 3:17 PM

Simple answer is yes it will work, but what country is this in? If local standards and codes say no you cannot do it then the answer is still no.

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#34
In reply to #20

Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 1:02 AM

How good are you in math? A do you know and understand ohm's law? Simple math and your amperage will stack up to? Unfortunately other people lives will depend on you judgment call

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#22

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 3:11 AM

System voltages of 380V, 400V and 415V 3-phase are prevalent and legally recognized in different countries. The corresponding single-phase voltages are, naturally, 220V, 230V and 240V. So most appliances are rated for this voltage range. Moreover, in a high-density residential area, voltage drops are quite common. 240V dropping to 230V is not abnormal, at least in India. So the consultant is not necessarily doing a bad job IMHO.

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#25

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 7:39 AM

we have a guy around here in the forum that winds his own T-former to deal with voltage drops in his supply, maybe you should buy him a beer, or better yet save time and fire your consultant.........stay within code......make sure aluminum wire wasn't spec'd

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#28

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 3:12 PM

We. Don't. Know. What. His. Nominal. Voltage. Is. In. His. Location.

All of this is speculative and pointless. Consultants toss around numbers often without knowledge or concern for what the utility in a particular area really supplies. Nominal voltages are just that, NOMINAL, meaning in that area, but subject to what is actually delivered. That's all that really matters in the long run, and as was previously said, distribution voltages are slightly different in different areas. Most likely this consultant lives on an area where 230V IS the normal voltage, but the condo is being built in an area where it is 240V. No big deal, don't get your panties in a twist over it. Equipment mfrs build to the nominal ranges in order to accommodate the greatest number of available markets. Anyone who makes something so narrowly specific is not going to survive in this world.

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#31

Re: Operating at 230V

07/14/2015 6:24 PM

If any of the equipment is not properly designed to operate at 230V then it will suffer from higher current/power consumption, higher operating temperatures, and poorer performance.

If the equipment is rated at 220-240V as you state then most likely the difference in performance will be minimal and the affects negligible to the equipment operation.

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#33

Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 12:44 AM

FYI folks.. 240 volts is the mains supply voltage for the UK, and there are certain domestic installations that have been designed & installed that run on 220 volts, while the incoming is 240v single phase with a live phase (at 240volt) a neutral leg and an earth (or ground) leg.

OP.. google it or consult the UK IEE installation guide, and the application of the requirements of the 17th Edition of the IET Wiring Regulations, as amended (BS 7671: 2008 incorporating Amendment 2)

LINK

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#36

Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 4:31 AM

A short story about practical politics. The European Union politicians decided to harmonize the single phase electricity voltage across Europe so that all electrical goods made in the EU could be sold in any country within the EU. Being typical politicians they failed to take into account that the existing single phase 240v and 220v are derived from the massive in place infrastructure that supported the low voltage three phase generating and distribution systems which were either 415v + 5% or 380v + 5%. To get around this impasse they put the problem out to committee. After many meetings in some of the most attractive tourist cities in Europe the committee came up with a workable compromise. By relaxing, on paper only, the generating tolerances, both systems could be said to be operating at 230v without making any changes at all. Thus Europe was harmonized to 230v, honor was satisfied, the bureaucrats who sat on the committee were handsomely remunerated at the taxpayer's expense, and the politicians could boast of their success.

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#37
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Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 5:29 AM

Musta been fun!

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 6:01 AM

Seems to me the real question is how does a 230V secondary reduce the cost of the buss duct?

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#41
In reply to #36

Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 2:31 PM

The harmonisation to 230V +/- 10% in Europe about 2000, with a time period for adoption. All through my youth & working life, the mains in England was 240V +/- 6%.

Most of the time when I measured it, the voltage was 250-255. Obviously, the supply HV distribution & final transfo were set to give 240V +6% no-load, falling to 240 at full load.

There was a date of 2008 set for UK reaching 230V [obviously, the power companies were reluctant to reduce volts, most loads being resistive it would knock almost 10% off their sales].

However, since 2008, I find about 245V on my sockets, so the change has happened.

Since governments have done nothing to replace retiring coal & nuclear generation, it is probably a good thing the load is reduced. Today a news item warned about possible power cuts...

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#39

Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 6:35 AM

Everything said so far is reasonable.

Except the OP.

Does this condo have it's own MV/LV transformer? Like, if the nominal utility voltage is 240 then why is 230 even a consideration?

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#40

Re: Operating at 230V

07/15/2015 8:11 AM

I think you will find everything works OK. Voltages quoted are nominal. Problems might arise if all your appliances are rated at the maximum the cables/fuses can carry.

Current and power actually consumed will depend on the actual voltage at the socket at the time you use the appliance.

You can use the nominal voltage and quoted power/current to assess the likely change if the actual voltage differs from nominal.

An electric kettle (water tank, cooker etc) rated at 220v-240v and 3 kW, you use 230v to calculate the current which will be 13 amps (which happens to be the rating of a standard UK plug and socket.)

If the actual voltage (at the time) goes up to 240v the current will go up to 13.6 amps and the power consumed will go up to 3.27kW. You might blow the 13amp fuse (but I doubt it) but the water will get hotter that much quicker.

If on the other hand, the label rating was 3kW at 220v then the current would be 13.6amps at 220v. If run at 240v, the current jumps to 14.9amps and the power jumps to 3.6kW (but for less time). You might blow the 13a fuse, but if not the lead might warm up and the socket/plug might get hot.

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#42

Re: Operating at 230V

07/16/2015 8:45 AM

Normally it does not make any difference as any equipment should work on +-6% voltage variation though in some places +-10% is a must.so 230 v will be ok

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