Previous in Forum: GSU tx OLCTC   Next in Forum: V5 Cell Failure in TMdrive-MVG
Close
Close
Close
9 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3
Good Answers: 1

Isolation Transformer

09/20/2015 5:28 AM

Hi Members,

I have a 100A 3phase supply running through a wye wound isolation transformer that feeds a main switchboard .Whenever the main breaker is closed without load intermittently it trips out like a short circuit (can see the arcing).Then randomly the breaker will set and load can be applied normally. I have tested all gauges and relays in the circuit .I have tested the transformers insulation resistance. The main breaker has been replaced brand new. I am wondering if its possible to have a fault condition in isolation transformer only when power is applied ,if so how can this fault be diagnosed.Any ones ideas would be greatly appreciated

Regards Dean

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: isolation transformer
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#1

Re: Isolation transformer

09/20/2015 6:28 AM

Sounds to me like it's arcing (due to magnetizing current + contact bounce) when the breaker is made with the input at an unfavourable point in the cycle.

But I may be talking b****cks .

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3
Good Answers: 1
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Isolation transformer

09/20/2015 7:12 AM

Nothing is ruled out until i can prove it, thanks for your input john.

when the breaker arcs it simultaneously trips and must be reset ,this indicates a very high short circuit current (100A breaker).Schneider NSX100

Also i should mention this supply is on a tug boat and the others in the fleet do not have this problem. I will research the possibilities of magnetized current

Regards Dean

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#9
In reply to #1

Re: Isolation transformer

09/21/2015 12:03 PM

I concur!!

(Not about talking b****cks!!!!)

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
5
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#3

Re: Isolation transformer

09/20/2015 10:41 AM

It could just be that the instantaneous trip setting of the breaker is set too low to allow for the magnetization inrush current of that transformer. That's not an uncommon problem. Transformer inrush can blow fuses or trip breakers, it can be tricky to coordinate the trip settings to prevent it.

The flash you see is likely just the contacts opening, that's normal, but some breakers contain the visible light from it better than others.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
3
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1686
Good Answers: 116
#4

Re: Isolation transformer

09/20/2015 11:34 AM

From what you report I think "main breaker" is on the supply side of the transfo?

What are the rated voltage and currents of transfo & breaker?

When you close onto a transfo it is certain that sometimes one phase will close at zero voltage. This leads to saturation so extreme that only primary winding resistance and its inherent (air cored) inductance limit the peak current which could exceed 20x rated current.

Most basic breakers have a (delayed) thermal overload and a magnetic instant trip at a fixed multiple of rated current, say 10x. But there is a tolerance on the "10x" e.g. 8 to 12.5x. There is also a tolerance on transfo impedance of around +/-20%.

It is not an easy design call and often a certain "no turn-on trip ever" solution needs a breaker with a rated current exceeding that of the transfo AND a magnetic trip at a higher multiple than the "standard" breaker.

You have not clarified if the trip occurs with the tugboat on shore or on-board power. If it is shore it is possible the cable size or run length is different between berths, giving higher currents.

The NSX100 data suggests it has an interchangeable trip unit - you report you changed the breaker. I note that the electronic trip unit has instantaneous trip >=12 In (compare 8 to 12.5 tolerance on standard) plus delayed 20ms trip at adjustable current, on top of the "thermal" Ir.

Did you change the trip unit or just the breaker?

Did the new breaker come with the same trip unit as the old one?

Is the transfo liquid or dry, what is accessible on it?

67model

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
2
Participant

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3
Good Answers: 1
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Isolation transformer

09/20/2015 10:02 PM

Thank-you for your input it was most valuable .After further investigation i found the inrush current setting on the breaker was set too low so in the event of closing the breaker the making and instantaneously breaking of contacts caused the arcing. I wasn't aware of such a high inrush current related to isolation transformers.

Happy days, thanks again for the replies

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
3
Associate

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 51
Good Answers: 5
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Isolation transformer

09/20/2015 11:42 PM

Hi John,

We manufacture transformers and always recommend a motor start characteristic on the input breaker because the inrush current at switch-on can be up to 100 times the normal running current.

You state that it is a 100A transformer and a 100A breaker. That is bound to give you the inrush problems.

I suggest at least a 120 A breaker because the transformer can easily take a 20% overload - if designed correctly - at least for a short time. Then with motor start characteristics it is unlikely (not impossible) that the breaker will trip because it will allow a motor stall current for several seconds. The motor stall current is effectively identical to the transformer inrush current because a motor and a transformer are basically the same electrical circuit. By this time the transformer will have settled down - usually within about one or two seconds.

I can not explain why other installations do not have the same problem unless your incoming voltage might be a bit higher before the transformer is switched on or perhaps they have a higher installation wiring resistance which limits the current.

I hope this helps

__________________
fsmit@dyne.com.au
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 77
#7

Re: Isolation Transformer

09/21/2015 2:13 AM

You must remember that the breaker is there to protect the WIRING, Mildred. I'd get the installation checked out by a qualified Electrician, then, I'm funny that way.

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1686
Good Answers: 116
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Isolation Transformer

09/21/2015 5:24 AM

The NSX100 has an adjustable thermal trip which can be set at transfo rated current. Have faith that the cable rating complies with BS7671 & exceeds transfo load current.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 9 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

67model (2); Andy Germany (1); BigBirdAustralia (1); BMSE (2); Crabtree (1); JohnDG (1); JRaef (1)

Previous in Forum: GSU tx OLCTC   Next in Forum: V5 Cell Failure in TMdrive-MVG

Advertisement