Biofuel vs Food.

We may experience the same thing here in the States, except with corn as the basis. Corn is our main animal feed and it's derivatives are used in nearly every manufactured human food product. Corn is also the popular political choice for biofuel. As a result, everything from cereal to soda to pork to salmon (farmed) may see a drastic price increase.

I work for a global company doing among many other things designing/building ethanol from corn plants in the U.S. The interesting thing about these plants is the primary byproduct of the process is converted into a dry feed for animals. It turns out the ethanol process consumes a part of the corn from which the animals digestive system gain little value, and what remains in this feed is the part of the corn most beneficial to the animals - with little or nothing lost in the process.

While it is reasonable and realistic to expect cereals and sodas to cost more - not because the corn or corn syrup are a large part of the cost to consumers, but because they are a component and increases are expected. However, if everyone buys into reasonable technology for these corn to ethanol plants - one should expect no increase in the cost of chicken, pork, beef, farmed salmon, etc. attributable to feed.

Thank's to Dr Beeching and his far reaching vision of the UK transport network...

(That's sarcasm folks!)

Still never mind, it's given us some lovely country walks...

But seriously when will a government have the balls to legislate a minimum fuel consumption for private vehicles?

If they had said 3 years ago that all new cars cars sold after say 2006 must have fuel consumption better than 30 mpg....we could have achieved it by now with no problem at all...and maybe even a small advantage to the UK car industry.

Please USA viewers don't bother objecting to this.. I mean UK...I know you travel greater distances and have a different automotive mindset.

Hi Del, "When will our goverment have the balls !" Is that a question or is it a joke?. Since WWII we have never had a government that had the balls to do anything for the good of this countries average citizens. It seems that in the future we will have to choose between eating or refueling our cars, but for people like me who do not drive a car as a matter of principle we will have to pay over the odds for a loaf of bread just so that car owners have fuel. I agree with what you said about legislating for better fuel consumption, but would it not be better to also ration fuel for private vehicles? If it carries on in this way, then I can envisage the day when citizens of this country who do not have a vehicle will attack those who do, or at least their vehicles! I want bread, not fuel for a vehicle. Spencer.

I'm sure that the Government will have their own index linked bread supply to go with their final salary pensions...and I'm sure we must all make sacrifices so that they can have big shiny cars.

Yes it was all rhetorical, or sarcasm!

If only we could run cars on the hot air from the politicians?

Ohmygoto, when well the government have balls? I suggest we should elect women to ever office, then our government will be totally ball free. But, in all honesty, at least here in the US of A, you might do some simple research to find out what this government is doing on this subject. Three places are easy to fine with a simple google search; NASA, DOE, and EPA. I am sure one can find similar sites in many other nations, too. I know England, Russia, Germany, France, Canada, Brazil, and China are very concern with the situation and are proactive.

That may be a litte unfair to Beeching: he was given a job to do by a government that was being steered by the road transport lobby. He resigned when one of his reports was rejected by the government of the day.

Today, the UK rail network is operating close to maximum capacity in many areas. Demand has grown to the extent that an announcement has been made about investing in the additional vehicles needed to develop and sustain services into the future. These and infrastructure improvements will continue to place demands upon the ingenuity and talents of Engineers.

Recent developments would suggest we have come a long way since 'Rocket', even though, were it safe to do so, it would happily steam along today's railway. Robert Stephenson would be so proud.

He resigned when one of his reports was rejected by the government of the day.

Ok..I didn't know that...he's shot up in my estimation then....!

In a free market economy (hopefully followed in the UK) everyone has the right to sell his or her products or services at the best possible price. It is therefore inappropriate for anybody to expect the farmers to subsidize them

Farmers are also hard hit by inflation and on top of that they also have to fight the elements.

On the other hand the farmers in the UK, USA etc are actually slaves of governments because the are heavily subsidised. The Government should therefore be blamed for allowing private sales of subsidized produce.

Another absurdity I have noticed in the UK is that instead of working hard a person can survive on dole money. This cannot be a healthy situation.

fuel schmool! The fact is that we now have 2/3 of the worlds grain and similar crops being used to feed livestock. In turn livestock feeds less than 1/3 of the world population (citing Jeremy Rifkin 'Beyond Beef')

It is a shame that the fear of travel restrictions supercede the inalienable rights of the human race. Why are millions of gallons of water....nevermind! That's what we seem most comfortable with anyway, 'nevermind'.

Please, no methane harvesting dialogues.

CR3

Farming with livestock gives better returns. It is the right of any farmer to plan and structure his operations around returns.

Africa suffers from malnutrition because of an unbalanced diets consisting of grain only. The situation could have been relieved if they could afford some livestock products.

Please Google or wiki for "Kwashiorkor" and decide for yourselves.

Hi Hendrik, So, let me get this straight, you are not a believer of social help? I worked for 43 years and now as I am an invalid because of my job, and you would deny me help? I know about the problem here in the UK with people who have never worked and who manage somehow to get by on the so-called dole, but please do not class me beside these work shy people! Spencer.

Hi Spencer

I am definitely not against you are anybody in your position receiving help. You have certainly earned it. From a distance I may have used the wrong words and I truly apologize for that.

Yes I am against lazy people who can have jobs wasting resources. There are scores of South Africans working in the UK because the locals do not consider working appropriate.

As a matter of fact I am in favour of increasing social grants to deserving people and reducing subsidies to farmers. Deserving people may then even pay less while the population that can afford it pay a realistic price.

The farmers must produce against economic realities and not in a fairy world where the Government subsidize them.

Hendrik

Grains aren't natural food for humans. Our primate ancestors didn't eat them much if ever. They are one main reason why diabetes and obesity are so prevalent. Unfortunately, humans need to be fed like cattle these days since there isn't enough natural food attainable.

Yup, I s'pose we're hunter gatherers....

Maybe the supermarkets should have the meat hanging on fast moving carousells so we have to chase it and the fruirt and veg should be sprinked around the aisles so we'd have to look for it...an the check out girls in loin cloths....

sorry drifting off into fantasy land again ..... mmmmm fantasy land

The problem is that it isn't possible to supply the population with that kind of food because there are too many people. The earth can't support it. We are already sucking the life out of the earth. We have gotten into quite a fix.

It will take some new kind of thinking like seaweed and algae grown on farms to address the problem. We are so far beyond the 200 million or so optimal world population. It is not about dreaming but rather where we've gotten, how and why we got there, and how we get free from where we are.

Hi Electrone. I agree that there are too many people on this planet, but where the hell did you get the figure of 200 million or so people is the optimum world population? Are you putting yourself forward for anhilation?

Now, which of the too many people should we eliminate and who gets to decide?

Hi Scapolie, the only choice I see is for everyone to essentially stop having children one way or another. 200 million is the figure I have come up with after taking into account the desire to have enough people to maintain needed manufacturing and infrastructure while not destroying the earth in the long run. It may be a too high still, even.

Hi Electrone, I can agree to that, myself we only had the one child, and even that was more than enough in many respects. I say we start a war and when that is over we can start all over again.

Hi Scapolie. I think you have done well based on your reproduction. I can't go along with violence, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see it sadly coming to that in some tragic way. I am hoping instead for more peaceful solutions.

Hi electrone, I too do not like or condone violence, but you yourself said that we were way too many on this planet! One of the reasons that I started this thread was to see how many people would see other people, including children starve to death just so they can have fuel for their personal vehicles! I think war is inevitable in this light, what say you?

Hi Scapolie, indeed, you are so right. It is happening still. I forgot about the present Iraq war!

I'm sure we don't need to worry about the lack of natural disater...with Mother Nature and Man's stupidity, it's a racing cert. After all in Geological terms we are just a blip

have you read 'Gas Sewer Electric'?

MOOOOOOOOOOOO !

I am not heart broken over the fact that farmers are finally receiving a just reward for the hard efforts. For the many years in the USA the family farmer has lost out. My grandparents move to the big city because the family farm just wouldn't support the family. I know in working beside my uncle on the family dairy farm how hard the life is for little monetary rewards. How he had to fight to get a good price from the bottlers for his milk. A pint of milk has far as I can remember has always cost less than a pint of soda or beer. You don't hear many complains when their price is increased. Now that the farmer can finally afford health insurance for his children or fix the leak in the roof over his child's bed. You want to complain because it cost you more. The farmer is making penny's on the dollar for that loaf of bread. Its just everyone else in the process before it gets to your table that the problem. They hear theres to be an increase and the all stand around with their hands out. Look at the profits the oil companies have been making with increase in gas. You think that their paying the deck hands any more than they have to that work the floors of the drilling rigs.

May be its time for you to think about a change in jobs. I hear there is going to be a boom in the farming industry. Foods cheap on the farm so you won't have no complaints there. Unless you still insist on buying bread from the store instead of grinding the flour and baking the bread yourself.

here here.

I'm from a family with a history of farming, too. My family farmed on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake from the 1600's up till my grandfather died in the 1960's. Not only had the economics of farming tanked, the ways of farming had changed so dramatically my father could no longer do battle with his father - and walked away from farming in the late 1950's. I inherited little more than an attitude...

Among the debris in my possession is a records book from a mill way down on the Delmarva Peninsula from the early 1850's. In these records the cost to the mill of a bushel of wheat was $5! The cost to the mill of a first class employee was $5 per week!

A modern day comparable industrial job might be that of a millwright in a Chemical or Petroleum plant. In this area a person holding this sort of job today would expect to make a minimum of $800 to $1000 per week. Taking the lower of those two numbers and ignoring the fact the cost to the employer is now on the order of 150% to 180% of the employee's number - that translates to the value of a bushel of wheat having fallen from being equal to $800 in current money to being finally back up over $4 only recently. While it is true per acre yeilds are as much as doubled over the same period - it comes nowhere close to adequately compensating the farmer for the loss in valuation of his crop. There was a time in the U.S. owning productive land was the most solid ticket to a very prosperous life.

Today owning nearly any kind of accessible land in the U.S. is a ticket to prosperity - not by working to make the sustainably productive, but rather by selling out to developers who will encourage people to facilitate their wasting the land through thoughtless development, by abandoning in place the similar developments of the past.

U.S. cities - especially in the east are studies in how not to manage land. The core's are largely restored expensive little gems, they can normally be expected to be surrounded by a broad ring of utter ruin, with an outer ring of real estate on the decline, followed by a ring of vibrant well healed populace followed by another ring of real estate in decline, followed by a ring of pockets of ruin, followed by a ring in decline, followed by a ring of pockets in good shape interspersed by land being converted to development flowing into a ring of land all being developed for the people seeking to flee the areas in decline and in ruin. The more they run, the more is left in ruin, and as long as they aren't the last holding the bag in an area in decline - it isn't their problem.

The urban sprawl just gets bigger and bigger, and the requirement for motor fuel just gets higher and higher.

Most in the U.S. have no real connection to the land anymore, no real understanding of any aspect of of what has been the fundamental means of production throughout the entire history of mankind. There seems to be no understanding of wealth creation within a society. Too many people are running around playing at a zero sum game.

Hi all you Americans and other farmers! Here in the UK we have something called the CAP. CAP (Common Agricultural Policy), This is a part of the EU policy that makes sure that farmers are paid top rates for their products, er, er, sorry it is to ensure that farmers within the EU get paid top prices for not producing anything!!! Then along came Wall-Mart to the UK from the good old US of A. Now Wall-Mart pressed the prices down for the farmers here in the UK, so farmers were getting less and less for their produce than before! We here in the UK call it Hypocrasy!!! Spencer.

All ways are leading to Rome.....

In the case of this tread: to... politicians, and their lobbyst (financial source in election time).

How many farmers can be on the list of Presidents of the USA? How many Priministers in UK and SA?.

Sarcasm: How many over-fat people in USA are per capita? per working farmer? Per working physicians?

I resemble that!

The question of using feed grains for producing fuel quality ethanol has be a question that science in both the USA, England, and the world, are currently addressing. If you type the word biomass into your Google search window, you can find volumes of information on this. I say, why not save England's wheat for producing the fine spirits and beers and use the wheat shaft and other agriculture wastes for producing the fuel alcohols? After all, fuel grade alcohol dos not quite the purity of that for human consumption, and the agriculture wastes can produce not only ethanol, but other poisonous to us but great fuel alcohols, from Methyl alcohol to Isobutyl alcohol. And to top it off, the residues can be used for fertilizer or to produce syn-gas.

As for the "never happen" answer you received, keep in mind that some in the petroleum industry is fighting the development of any fuel sources that cut into their profits tooth and nail. Happily, British Petroleum, BP, is doing some research into alternate energy. Saddly, though, they seem to be neglecting the safety of their refinery holdings here in Houston, Texas. Let's hope that their research continues and that their safety record improves.

All agricultural products are ultimately used as energy sources for humans. Consumers decide whether they want to pay for personal energy required for manual labor, or for mechanized energy that can lessen the manual effort to sustain survival while expanding horizons, accessing exotic products, etc.

There are only two known primary sources of energy on earth- the sun and the internal heat engine. Petroleum products are biofuels that have been subjected to millions of years of natural processing, involving a variety of effects including high compression and high heat, most likely including some biological processes as well. What makes them so attractive is the extremely high energy content resulting from the processes.

The energy "crisis" results from population growth and the subesquent increased demand for various energy resources, rather primary (i.e., food) or secondary (i.e., mechanization). A solution will occur only when the total picture is considered, rather than segmented by industry.

You hit on a point there. The crisi only realy exists because of unchecked population growth. That and greed.

I loved that first paragraph. The rest is hog-wash.

The engine is not a source of energy. It is however, a consumer of energy, and a transformer of energy (I refer you to Sir Isaac and his fundamental laws).

The energy crisis should, in my opinion, not be in "quotes" as it is a very real issue. Growth is not the cause. Consumption is a cause. Industrial shortsightedness is a cause. Corporate monopolization is a cause. Irresponsible cultural behavior is a cause. Why one good argue that growth is a result.

I have to remind myself, the Earth is a host. We are but parasites.

Okay not hog-wash. But certainly not the most agree-able sow in the sty, since it seems to be but a scraping of the surface.

By "internal heat engine", I was referring to the hot core of the earth, which seems to act not only as a source of heat, but as a magnito dirving the magnetic field. Of course, this is speculation, since I have never traveled to the center of the earth...

I humble myself to that point.

I guess it's just Mr. Verne's imagination that has made that trip.

The uranium doesn,t count then? Petroleum is produced by biogenic(fossil) & abiogenic- where deep down h2o is converted to oil under pressue, temp, & catalysts, & rises to the surface- many depleted oil wells are filling again- all geologists now admit that abiogenic oil does occur- I saw a website in US where for $29 you got a book showing how to make your own petrol at home from h2o, catalyst,temp.& pressure.

please forward address or descrip of book.

I just Googled water as fuel, or synthetic petrol, or waterpowered cars & the site came up- sorry I can,t remember more- I have downloaded the printout but I can,t seem to find it at this time- it is among 100,s of downloaded items- it was about 18 months ago.

H2O + catalyst? + temp? +pressure? = Petrol ??????

The liquid used is Unicorn urine and the catalyst is Horse Feathers...I suspect.

I was going to cash in on my Leperachaun gold (http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/10394#newcomments) and by some depleted oil wells. Am glad to know that I should to pick up up some Unicorn urine while I'm out. I have The horse feathers. I keep them in a jar next to my caged goose and her golden eggs.

I found the site @ 1/2 r search- http://www.petrol.host.sk/ . It is an Ebook from 2CO for $29- apparently, they also use natural gas in the process - naturally, I did not fall for it, but, who knows, could be true?.

much obliged ~ will investigate.

Hi Del, Will the urine of Dodo do.

Yup...

Or even Dodo doo doo I guess?

They need to be from a horse of a different feather.

Do do 2

Hi Bob B, I have a cart horse, will its feathers do?

If it has feathers and flies. No ... Wait, I'm sure it has flies. May want to invest in a heavy duty umbrella.

exactly. H₂O + Cx + 800ºC -> H₂ + CO. This is the water gas or syn-gas reaction. Add a catalyst and you can get other reactions including hydrocarbons. The trick is the cost of the energy input, i.e., the 800ºC takes energy. Sometimes the C_x is partly burned with low Oxygen to help produce the energy. Both the hydrogen and carbon dioxide can be burned in any type of heat engine to produce mechanical (gas engine or turbine) or electrical (SOFC) energy. This is essentially what happens when coal is burned, The syn-gas is what actually burns, the solid must first become gas before compustion can happen. This is also how wood and bio-waste burns, too. Even candles burn this way. The only difference it that the burn is complete when Oxygen is present.

Co2 can be burned in a heat engine to produce power? What nonsense is that? Please explain!

I think he said CO. The refineries I've worked at have CO boilers - I've never seen a CO IC engine - but I wouldn't put it beyond the realm of possibility.

In fuel cell, CO is converted to CO₂ and does also produce electricity, too. The reaction is H₂O (as 800ºC steam) + CH₄ = 3H₂ + CO, this is the reform part, then in the burn part, it is:

4O^(-2) + 3H₂ + CO = 3H₂O + CO₂ + electric current + heat (850ºC)

Why use CH4 in this concept? CH4 = methane, a gas that can be burned in a boiler or in the combustion chamber of a stirling engine without going through your proccess? Spencer.

To burn it in a boiler gives 25% to 30% efficiency to use it in a fuel cell gives 50% without hear recovery, and with heat recovery, 80% t0 90% efficiency. That is why. Also, the SOFC is multi-fueled. If can use hydrogen, methane (natural gas), syn-gas, propane, and alcohols, all with the same efficiency. SUch high efficiency makes the SOFC far less expensive to operate and is far cleaner to operate, as well. Since we are all engineers, or planning of being engineers, ou should have to education to understand this. All the information is available on the web. Until we make teh alternative energy sources economically as viable or more viable than our current inefficient and dirty fossil fuel economy, the consumer will still be stuck with the high costs of foreign oil we will continually pollute our planet until it becomes unlivable.

He Said, Carbon dioxide, thus = CO2

I still don't see the advantage. Like asked, why not burn or blend and burn the CH4?

One of the current holy grails of energy is an efficient fuel cell to go straight to electrical energy - the problem with which is a viable available source of Hydrogen to fuel it.

Perpetual motion proponents seem to think you can use some of the electrical energy to dissociate Hydrogen from Oxygen in water, but with perfect efficiencies and an ideal world such a scheme would be a zero net gain.

You solar energy to disassociate hydrogen from oxygen, the process is easy and you cna find many sources for the equipment by simply typing "Hydorgen generation" into google.

The other aprt of the schema is to convert biomass into syn-gas by using the heat generated by the Fuel Cell (850ºC) necessary to make the conversion.

If you are generating enough electricity by solar means to disassociate enough hydrogen to run a large enough fuel cell to get the electricity you need - you are better off using the solar power directly - because no matter how efficient the fuel cell is you don't gain any more electricity - because the reaction in the fuel cell is the reverse of the reaction involved in disassociation of the hydrogen - it takes addition of as many electrons to disassociate the hydrogen as you can get back out in recombining it with the O2.

The systems that use bio methane directly through high temperature reformation onboard using the waste heat are very promising and if they can be made more dependable are currently at a viable cost.

The sun shines to produce electric power for about 6 to 8 hours a day, not counting cloudy days. No, you are far better off using the hydrogen produced to enrich the natural gas, propane, alcohol, or syn-gas. The fuel cell battery is also far better than any lead-acid battery you can use to store for later use. Why don't you do a process flow sheet and compare, after all, you are an engineer, are you not? Use your training to work it out.

You're right, I had keyed in on his little formula of H₂O + Cx + 800ºC -> H₂ + CO rather than his verbiage.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I would like to add that Dynamotive Energy Systems Corporation has developed a process that produces biofuels from non food products - our company has a policy to convert biomass wastes - such as construction debris or other agricultural waste products into biofuels as substitute disel #2 and 6 fuels. To that end our fuels are not competing with food products and also allows us to solve a waste problem at major landfills.

Guest, I went to your Dynamotive Energy Systems web page. The system used here it so convert wastes into oil. This works great but I suggest that the conversion to syn-gas is even more efficient. The tubular solid oxide fuel cell as produced by Acumentrics will further reform syn-gas, natural gas, and the alcohols to produce electric power, the Acumentrics 5000 producing 5 kw, enough to run an average home. Please note, too, that Siemens also has a good SOFC ready to hit the market. The exhaust heat from the SOFC is at 850°C which is enough to produce the syn-gas reaction directly with the industrial and agricultural wastes, thus creating its own fuel. By adding a Distributed Energy System's solar powered hydrogen generator to the system, the syn-gas/natural gas stream can be enriched with hydrogen to make the system even more 'green'.

In addition, the agricultural wastes, especially that of corn after the harvest of the grain for feed purposes, can be boiled to remove the sugars and starches for ethanol production and the residue then sent to syb-gas production. Note, too, that from syn-gas it is easy to reform to a number of alcohols for use in transportation and the remaining sludge from the syn-gas and the fermentation process can be made into high grade fertilizer.

As you know, we human beings are the most wasteful of all life on earth. We are prone to skim the top off the cream and throw out the rest. It is about time we start to change and begin to use our God-given intelligence for something for something besides a hat rack. The technology is here and now. Let's stop talking and start acting.

You can find out more on my BLOG and with an about half completed article posted on my personal web page.

To add to the above, the SOFC is the ideal CHP Unit. One can also build a bio-digester, syn-gas, alcohol, solar hydrogen generation to fuel the fuel cell, all on one or two skid units. The parts can skid components can be modules which can be install as the home owners fund become available. The alcohols can also be used to supply a home brewed fuel for transportation, yard care, farm equipment, and will still be available, too, for use in the multi-fuel SOFC. All you engineering types who want to start your own business, here is your chance. I have given you the links to the technologies and to manufacturers of the equipment.

I take great heart from this debate. I have long thought that food has become unsustainably cheap. Eating cheap food and being able to fill your house with imported gadgets won't improve your longevity.

Hugh Price