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Anonymous Poster #1

Direct Drive VS Belt Drive

12/12/2015 3:46 AM

a motor used for ID fan application took more load when directly coupled (beyond imagination).

load at 800 rpm 70 amps (direct drive), in belt drive 50 amps (belt drive-fan rom 580)

due to this we are not able achieve required fan rpm 1050 in direct drive.

in belt drive the motor took 68 amps at 1440 rpm-fan rpm 1050.

it seem to be converting all direct drive to belt drive will save substantial energy

please guide to get fix the reason

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Anonymous Poster #2
#1

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 4:05 AM

Gearing...

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Anonymous Poster #2
#2

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 4:06 AM

He means reduction ratio

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Anonymous Poster #3
#3

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 4:19 AM

Load.

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#4

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 4:29 AM

Your motor fan combination are mismatched.

First check the performance of the fan against the required duty and rectify with the help of the supplier / manufacturer.

Once you have that sorted out match the motor and speeds to the duty point of the fan with the help of the supplier / manufacturer of the motor.

A direct drive is more efficient than any V drive but you may have to consider VFD to have a proper match.

.

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#5

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 6:00 AM

Are you sure the fan was turning the same way each time?

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#6

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 7:18 AM

forget RPM, install a pulley that will not exceed the nameplate FLA on the motor.

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#7

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 7:49 AM

Use the belt drive. The motor runs more efficiently at the higher RPM. It requires less torque with belt drive due to the speed reduction. Current draw is proportional to torque. The input power is equal to voltage times current, so if the motor is doing the same work in either case, it's more efficient with belt drive.

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#8

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 11:30 AM

You have not provided enough information for a complete answer, only conjecture. But we can deduce the most likely possibility and address the "legal" battle you are experiencing here. It's not about your having violated any of the puny laws of humans, it's about you not understanding the immutable laws of physics, namely the First Law of Thermodynamics and then Affinity Law 1c.

Your first offense is that of hubris against the First Law of Thermodynamics, which partially states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. You were attempting to do the same work using less energy in a system, namely, changing components and expecting that magically, energy would be reduced. This law says that this can NEVER happen, at least by magic. The closest we mere mortals can come is to first IDENTIFY someplace in a system where energy is being WASTED, then removing that waste in a method that does not sacrifice performance of the system. You may have assumed there was a lot of waste in the belt drives, but obviously did not fully understand the system first, you simply removed belt drive components without fully understanding their function, expecting that magically, this would reduce the energy. It's never that simplistic.

Next, you paid no heed to Affinity Law 1c, stating that in a centrifugal (quadratic) machine such as an air fan, the power REQUIRED by the machine varies at the cube of the speed change. This is where we must deduce your error by virtue of your complaint, because in complaining of the motor overloading, we can deduce that your belt drive system was DECREASING the fan speed compared to the motor shaft speed. So by eliminating that reduction ratio, you INCREASED the speed of the fan blades themselves, thus increasing the power demand from the fan by a cubed factor. As an example, let's say you had even a modest belt reduction ration of 2:3 meaning that for every 3 motor shaft rotations, the fan shaft rotated only 2 times. Expressed fractionally, the fan turned at 2/3 the motor speed, or digitally, .67 times. By directly driving the fan, the speed increased by the inverse of that, so now your fan would be spinning at 1/.67 of what it was, which is is 1.4925..., so roughly 150% of what it was spinning. Now, as per Affinity Law 1c, the fan will DEMAND 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 the amount of power from that motor. So now let's pretend you originally needed 90kw of mechanical power for the belt driven fan, so you had a 100kW motor driving it with belts to reduce the speed. By removing the belts and directly coupling it, this meant increasing the fan speed by just 50%, which then means the Load REQUIRED by that fan increased to 1.5 CUBED, or 337.5%, meaning the motor needed to be at least 303kW! 100kW motor connected to a 303kW liad = failure...

Now, physics does allow for adjustment in flow to lower the power requirement, stating that the power required by a fan reduces as the flow reduces. But to accomplish this with that same example speed change, you would need to restrict flow drastically, and at the same time suffer consequences of increased static duct pressure that may end up blowing out your air ducting seams.

In theory, you could add a Variable Frequency Drive to that motor and reduce the motor speed again, but here too, it's not that simplistic. In addition to reducing the SPEED of your fan, the belt drive system also INCREASED the shaft TORQUE at the fan. When you use a VFD to reduce speed, you get, at best, the SAME torque at the lower speed. So unless the fan did not really NEED that added torque at the reduced speed, this too could result in failure. Generally, when a fan manufacturer picks a motor size to operate a fan that uses a belt drive to reduce the speed, they will put in the minimum size motor they can use, base UPON the shaft torque the fan needs. In other words it's far far more likely that your fan will need the torque provided by the belt drive at its shaft, meaning your motor might still be too small even with VFD reducing the speed.

We the jury of your peers hereby sentence you to 30 weeks of studying physics as it relates to air handling systems.

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#15
In reply to #8

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/13/2015 6:47 PM

GA. I think you understood what s/he was doing better than i did. Just teasing out what they were trying to do was not easy. What i was thinking was that s/he was trying different things with the same fan and motor. But i guess that you twigged they were looking at different combinations and trying to make one work like the other.i.e. more efficiently, without realising that their existing setup IS the most efficient already. They also seemed to want greater airflow from one fan without knowing any of the things you taught them, and me, about.

Thanks,

Jim

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#9

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 10:21 PM

What was the belt drive ratio?

What is 'ID fan application'

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 10:49 PM

Belt ratio 1440 motor speed to 1050 fan speed

Yes it is for id fan application

The motor took more load for 800 rpm in direct drive and less load in belt drive mode at same fan rpm.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 11:47 PM

Normally, that would not be plausible. I suspect you are misperceiving something in the recounting of this.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 11:57 PM

Were you using a vfd to get the 800rpm?

Otherwise you should have run at synchronous speed and the rpm would be too high.

If you were using a VFD, then you are mismatched with the load - the motor power is a function of torque x speed -- direct drive you only get 800/1440 or 56% of rated power. When coupled 1440/1050 you can develop rated motor HP (if that is the rated motor speed). Now if you slow it down with a vfd again to get 800 fan rpm - then the motor HP developed is 800/1050 (76% of rated).

Since the fan load power requirement at 800 rpm (fan) is the same in both cases, then the motor torque required direct drive is also higher than the belted situation by 1440/1050 or 137% more torque output from the motor.

Please see J.Raef "GA" dissertation above - he nailed the physics!

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#16
In reply to #11

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/14/2015 2:12 PM

Most likely the VFD is not large enough or it is not configured properly or the Volts-per-Hertz ratio is not correct for the application.

In many cases the drive must be tuned to deliver the correct amount of torque for the application speed.

I would perform the direct drive test while monitoring the applied voltage and frequency throughout the fan operation cycle to determine where the issue is.

Most VFD units allow fine tuning to move the torque curve to fit the application.

The VFD original equipment manufacturer should be able to provide the needed information and/or approve or disapprove any changes to the drive.

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#10

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/12/2015 10:25 PM

Closest to the source is always better. Therefore direct drive should be most efficient. As long as it is matched correctly.

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#14

Re: direct drive vs belt drive

12/13/2015 1:53 AM

You have to check your system throughly and you have not mentioned the motor load is during start up or normal running condition,Normally direct drive is recommended when the driven equipments are operated at synchronous speeds of motor,some times we may have to use variable frequency drives for the electrical motors to match to the equipments rotational speed.Use of belt drive is old concept and there is loss 5-8% energy loss in the belt drives.

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#17

Re: Direct Drive VS Belt Drive

12/14/2015 7:25 PM

Where are you measuring voltage and amperage--before or after the VFD?

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