Where Is It?

"The increasing heights of American buildings led to a flurry of patent ground ladders and vehicles like this with mechanically powered ladders. The first successful "aerial", as it was called, appeared in 1882 in San Francisco.

This aerial was patented by the Chicago Fire Extinguisher Company in 1886. Probably built for the Chicago Fire Department, it was sold in 1894 to the fire department of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Eleven Benton Harbor firemen had died a few months before because of inadequate ladders. The aerial, a large piece of apparatus for such a small town, was probably a reaction to this disaster. In 1927 Benton Harbor sold the truck to Alpena, Michigan. There it was crudely converted to be pulled by a truck. Don Hale fabricated new wheels, a new front end, axles, and many other pieces to restore the rig to its original appearance. Although they were produced in large numbers, No other Babcock aerials have survived."

http://www.hallofflame.org/handhorsedrawn8.htm

Rare 1880's photo Cadillac Michigan...

http://www.cadillac-mi.net/index.aspx?nid=394

far in the past just like the film that captured this image.

Actually 'analog' photography as it's now called is having a resurgence. New film cameras are being made. Retro cool. Kinda like steampunk.

The short answer is Gardendale Al. I found the same picture in Gardendale Fire Dept.

That scene looks like a more developed town that Gardendale/Jugtown should have been in the 1890s or early 1900s. Jugtown had the lumber for its first grammar school donated in the 1890s.

The narrowness and heavy architecture of the building in the background to the left suggests a bigger city. Is that a street lamp post behind the ladder wagon? Looks pretty tall if it is...suggesting electricity (instead of a gas street lamp).

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The brick street is interesting in that the brick faces seem rather small and square or nearly so. Perhaps that is indicative of a certain area.

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Higher resolution would probably yield more clues.

dj95401: The short answer doesn't work. Here is what Gardendale Fire Chief Clint Doss had to say in March, 2014. The second of the 2 pictures is the Seagrave also shown. "Those two pictures were given to us by a local news media which picked them up at a garage sale. I have no idea where they are from nor what departments they belong to. We have them hanging in Station 1 just for decoration. Our local media rep took those pictures and placed them on the web without our knowledge and they have never been removed."

This is the basis of the guess that this might be a southern city.

Hey Lehman, don't worry it didn't hurt my feelings. I had a limited amount of time to do any more research into it, my GF was ragging on me about some things on her honey do list that needed to completed! Bu that's an awesome and interesting picture and I'll be following thread just for the sake of curiosity. Thanks for sharing it.

Dan

Northport Alabama

I don't know where it is but have a few questions anyhow.

Are there any outriggers on it? I can't see any but with that long a ladder, there are at least 3 flyes, but it would have a certain propensity to tip if even the ladder is just raised without extending it.

The turntable doesn't seem big enough to accommodate a ladder that long and heavy.

How would they extend the ladder? Seems crowded for a pulley system.

At that time did they have those specially fabricated wooden ladders like Los Angeles uses now? That would help the weight problem but they probably didn't have that technology then.

I would be interested in any information about these. I'm an engine guy and not a truckey very often. Now I'm in the drivers seat and at the pump panel. Age has it's privileges or it discrimination by the "youngsters". They can have their quints with the ladders and such.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Found this...

patent 74821

http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/USRE8758.pdf

http://www.lafire.com/fire_apparatus/1881_hayes/index_hayes.html

..." Then, in 1868, Daniel Hayes developed a truck with an aerial ladder that could extend as much as 85 feet in height. Four to six men could fully raise the telescopic ladder in less than 40 seconds by turning a crank. The aerial was mounted on a turntable, so the ladder could be swung around to the desired direction. Hayes had designed, and then built himself, the first practical and safe horsedrawn aerial ladder truck. The truck was named after its inventor: the Hayes Extension Hook and Ladder Truck and Fire Escape."

https://www.lafra.org/lafd-history-hayes-aerial-ladder-truck/

..."

an extension ladder that was raised by a spring-assist mechanism from the top of a ladder truck. "..

http://www.sfmuseum.net/hist9/hayestruck.html

..."

An inventive machinist in the San Francisco Fire Department repair shop, Daniel D. Hayes patented the first successful aerial ladder in America in 1868.

At first these heavy ladders were raised by hand, by firefighters furiously turning cranks and handwheels. Early in the new century coil springs took the muscle work out of hoisting the aerial ladder and soon hydraulic power replaced manpower entirely."...

http://www.fire-police-ems.com/books/be8370.shtml

SE: Good finds. Seems like later Hayes were elevated by a large screw under the butt of the ladder instead of a winch/windlass as here. Interesting that the extension could be cranked down. Some of the early hydraulic aerials came down only by gravity like my son's 1951 Seagrave TT aerial which may not come down if extended more than 75 feet, because it is bent just a bit.

I haven't looked yet to see if I can find a patent on the Babcock to help answer Old Salt's questions.

Old Salt: I haven't had any luck finding patent drawings, a user guide, or whatever would help answer your questions. So here goes from what I know and can observe.

There are apparently are no outriggers. If anything at all, it would be spring locks or some sort of screw jack from the frame. My son's 1951 Seagrave TT aerial has outriggers not at all like today; they extend manually out from the width perhaps 3 feet then a screw jack to bring it tight against the ground--cannot lift the truck as with hydraulics. The tractor has spring locks on the back axle. (Some additional stability is achieved by jackknifing the tractor and trailer.) Generally wooden aerials were two sections only--lots of rear overhang for the tillerman to think about. The other ladders you can see would be ground ladders; I think they used only single bank then. I don't think the double bank came along until the 1920s.

Elevation, extension, and rotation were all by hand-crank. That is, no hydraulics at all. You can see a couple of the cranks stored vertically on pegs on the turntable. You can also see a bevel gear, but I don't know what operation that would handle. The crank for the turntable rotation was probably vertical turning a small gear meshing with the turntable gear.

The ladder would have been solid wood with cables to form a truss. The Seagrave type trussed wooden ground ladder came later; as far as I know it was never used on an aerial ladder.

I prefer the older rigs--pre-WW2. Before 1930 is even better, but some of the American-LaFrance 400 series look awful nice.

Lehman57:

Thank you for taking the time to investigate my questions. You are quite the resource for antiques. I have read numerous books on the antiques but it all becomes too many things to remember, especially all the various engines, ladders. quints, platform ladders, squads, support. hose supply, light, air supply, rescue, water rescue, mini-pumpers, tenders, brush and about four times that in miscellaneous other vehicles.

At one time I wanted to buy and refurbish a pumper to original condition but that went the way of the B-36 tug, the railroad steam engine and winning the lottery.

My fire company has a '28 Pirsch that is cosmetically and most of the mechanical restored. Like the older American LaFrances but hate the ones made prior to the company's demise. My fire company, over my strong objections, bought a 1,500gpm/1,000gal with CAFS. I was against buying it because Chrysler owned AlF and was going to file for bankruptcy at the time. Because of the many problems it spent a year back at the factory. Found out later that the reason for the purchase was the truck committee liked the vinyl in the cab and the salesman would take them out to a gentleman's bar and pay the bar tab, which were usually quite expensive for "refreshments" only.

When I was chief the battery cables shorted on the exhaust pipe and the engine started to burn. Unfortunately the crew put the fire out after they radioed me. My delay was to figure out how to tell them on the radio to let it burn. I others heard me say that on the radio I would have been in deep do-dos.

Again, thanks for taking the time for of my interests.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Everybody else out there: volunteer for your fire company. You don't have to directly fight fires. There are numerous other positions that are needed. Are you an accountant, financial or numbers person? Treasurers and financial people are always needed. Mechanics and "wrench-heads" are always needed for more than the vehicles. Administrators are always wanted. You can someday be president of the company. You don't have to directly fight fires to support your fire company and community! Also ladies, there is no limitation on gender! A pair of interested and industrious hands are always needed. Want to feel good about yourself? This is the way!

The horses look like Haflingers? In which case the location may not be in the US.

Alpena Michigan

http://alpenacityfirefighters.org/history.html

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popular_Science_Monthly/Volume_47/September_1895/The_Development_of_American_Industries_Since_Columbus:_Fire_Fighting_II