Is your cash flow in good shape?

Are you operating at a profit?

If the answer to these questions is yes - forget this distraction and stick to your knitting.

thank you that was my gut feeling.... it seems to be the Iniative dujour.....

thanks again

tom

To me, six sigma is just the latest catch phrase for continuous improvement at all levels. I have looked into this myself, and found it very proscriptive if you are running a very flexible manufacturing business with up to 200 models. Also, as a large organisation, you need complete buy in from the top to implement this. Ultimately, do you need it? Is your quality control working? A workforce who are on a bonus scheme to reduce faults and produce is very effective....

Thank you, I feel generally the same, its the latest catch phrase....shame on you if you were not doing continuous improvement before "six sigma"..

than ks for the conformation

tom

If you are a consulting engineer, which it sounds like you are, it may be a great selling point. I agree with the fact it's a repackaged version of everything else that has been done, but companies are paying 6 figures for black belts. The industry seems to think that this training is a godsend and only good things will happen. If you need to increase revenue, or want to, it can be used as a great marketing tool. My 2 cents, it's the "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" but it may be a small price to pay for marketing...

Thanks for your perspective....the $4800 isn't bad but I give up about 300 billable hours in addition...overall cost is significant....It is a "god send" to some leaders...

thanks again for the feed back

tom

My experience is six sigma may not be of any use for person like you.you are alreday using all tools of six sigma if i am correct.Six sigma is ment for people who are dumbs and doesent have any resoning power.and inbuilt creativity.In fact Six sigma will kill if you are having any creative ability.and will be stumbling block to your work

crm

This Businessweek podcast may provide some guidance:

3M's Innovation Crisis

How Six Sigma almost smothered its idea culture

Find it Here.

Similar situation is existing with caterpillar fecility at India.In the year 2002 the organisation went in Headlong for six sigma,Unless any new idea was putthrough a Sixsigma project sucessfully the new idea was dumped,How ever benifical it may be for the bottom line.in fact caterpillar introduced NPI (new product introduction)process heavely based on six sigma and No new product has been introduced till to day in fact NPI process has become No Product introduction ,even caterpiller went to the exreme that emplyee performance was measured by number of six sigma projects the employee has compleated in that perticuler year many creative emoloyees were denayed their anual increments and incentives which was shown as savings and number employees were given pinkslips for not part of sigma projects.

crm

....which is maybe the reason we are seeing a lot of new products in Germany that look like caterpiller stuff, but have a vaguely chinese or japenese name on them!!!!

Many companies that are desperately looking for ways to reduce cost believes (perhaps mislead) that by applying six sigma they can save millions of dollars. The results have been dissappointing. Just because GE claimed that they have saved hundreds millions of dollars doesn't mean this is applicable for every company. Doesn't the titles "green belt", "black belt" sound impressive? Just like karate.

ok, based on my understanding is that Six Sigma is more like TQM but with additional statistical set rule to measure the product defect level. In other words it is TQM on steroids (TQM + SPC = 6 sigma) mostly famous in western countries whereas TPS, JIT, TQM just like Kaizen and Kanban is more widely used with greater success in Japan.

Is that correct ?

Do not go there and forget the T-Shirt, Sixth Sigma causes more problems than it fixes, especially in Service orientated companies.

It may be OK for certain manufacturing processes....step warily!!

Andy

Thank you for that insight, and I especially like your salutation.

thanks

tom

I thank you most kindly Sir!

You are the first one to mention my salutation, I feel that it is not a 100 miles from the truth sometimes if I am being honest!

Interesting! How long have these "martial arts-style" colored belts been associated with engineering? My 9 year old son is a black belt in Martial Arts, and he has worked hard for several years, 4 or 5 nights a week to attain his belts. That training has helped him immensely in school. He has been an honor-roll student every school year, and he has overcome his shyness and fear of speaking in front of class. He was selected to address the school and parents assembly on Memorial Day celebration at school, because he is now used to leading classes in Martial Arts.

It's the latest invention of "Industrial Engineering" education.

If you have been making money without it, you should still do well without a six-sigma belt of any color.

The only innovative ideas about how to run a company, when compared to ways that US companies have historically done it, came from Deming's efforts in post WWII Japan.

Integrating some of his philosophies into a company's management can be good, but wholesale switchover's cause dissention. US workers don't like change; they don't like the concept of being responsible for a company's success when they don't have control of why they have been given more responsibilities, and they want more money for doing their jobs well (heck -- they want more money for doing their jobs).

I hate the culture we seem to be slipping into. Changing or modifying management methods every couple of years means there is a lot of effort being put into how to make everyone happy at the same time as making more money for the company, and I'll bet if you ask the average worker, "How can we spend or save money in this company to make more money for you as well as the company?" I'd bet you'd get a bunch of good ideas, and one of them wouldn't be "Use Six Sigma."

and I'll bet if you ask the average worker, "How can we spend or save money in this company to make more money for you as well as the company?" I'd bet you'd get a bunch of good ideas, and one of them wouldn't be "Use Six Sigma."

Probably they would say 'leave us alone for 5 minutes!'

I have only three comments.

1. If you are practicing stastical techniques, keep it up. If you are a Tier 1 supplier you should be doing it now. If not, this is an expensive and distractive way to do it.

2. If your customers are doing it be sure to learn the language and techniqies they are interested in, don't try to bluff your way, master it or ask for clarification.

3. Often customers have a adopted a preferred stat software package. I have resolved many issues by using their programs (Minitab, Northwest Anylitical, Stastica, and Matlab are a few) to provide tha same data in a form or form they can digest.

In other words, use their programs and do their work for them to suport your products.

Good luck

I do not know how things work in England, but here in the US reference letters from customers who were satisfied with the projects I did for them are more than sufficient.

I specialize in "Engineering Oversight Rectification". Also prototypes, and manufacturing equipment.

I never listed any "Certifications", and other such B/S.

I did however have a portfolio of some of my projects that were impressive to look at if not particularly impressive from an engineering standpoint. After all a Robotic Assembly Station looks more impressive than an IC Test Chamber where IC's are tested in a High Vacuum/ -30c environment. Included was a client/project list, ( with the clients permission.)

Still had more project offers than I could accept.

So my input would be to forget the labels and concentrate on the work. The work will speak louder than all the fancy "Certifications" in the world.

As we all know, an Engineering Degree does not mean that the holder of it could figure out to open a tin of beans without an electric opener.

I agree with the person that referred to it as a selling point. If you are working as a consultant and feel that the creditial will help in bringing you business then it might be well worth the cost. Just because you become trained in it doesn't mean you have to implement all aspects of Six Sigma. Some aspects are very useful, other can be a waste of time. There are many articles out there where companies have been successful in using it by focusing on Lean and complementing it with Six Sigma. These are todays buzz words and they do help you get your foot in the door, its up to you to understand how all the tools can be used and how you can best use them to benefit your customer.

You named many types of programs and asked is six sigma is like them? I say yes and no. Is TQM and Lean the same? They are in one sense, but TQM mainly focuses on the production floor and Lean deals with everything between finding a customer to shipping the finished product. The other programs you listed are merely tools just like Six Sigma to be used in an overall program like Lean.

Its what we have to deal with in todays market. I recently had my title changed from Lean Engineer to Continuous Improvement Engineer, while also being the Safety and Training Engineer for my company. Titles though don't change how do my job. It is my understanding of how to use all these tools I've been given that will be how I do my job. I still get a kick out of seeing companies post jobs ads looking for Manufacturing Engineers skill in Kaizan. To think when I was going through school I was taught the main function of a manufacturing engineer was continuous improvement & now you can be one without having that skill. The Power of Buzz Words!

Six Sigma is and should be another tool in the engineering arsenal for all engineers. Most engineers use some of the tools of Six Sigma without really knowing it.

The skills it teaches are those of information and design management. In other words; are you getting, understanding and correctly using the information you use to run your business and create your product? Is there more profit to be made by updating or streamlining processes? Are you correctly judging your customers response to your product? These are some of the tools of Six Sigma.

It truly sounds like you are using some of these tools to your advantage already. You would profit more at this time to self educate yourself in the Six Sigma tools and use them as you see fit. In the future if the need arises take the class and add another credential to your portfolio. You might at this time benefit from taking the Green Belt course. It teaches the same tools but does not cost as much.

I was a QE for five years (I've been an Electrical Engineer on the design and manufacturing side for over 20 years) and saw how a Black Belt can improve the bottom line of a company when given the chance. The key to this is; "given the chance". It has to be a top down demand for these improvements to work. It doesn't work from the bottom up. You can not push this idea up the food chain. It does not work that way.

The previous Six have you on a mailing list.

Six Sigma is another engineering tool using statistics extensively, and providing a structured way of problem resolution. Without historical data there is no Six Sigma, but problem stills...Then, a medium skilled engineer with an spreadsheet and common sense (the most uncommon) can do it.

Unless there is an interesting Six Sigma services market you can cover, forget it and go fishing instead...

Cheers

I had a lot of six sigma training at Seagate okc in 1999, and all I can say is it cost Seagate a lot of money and, I didn't see that it did much but allow us to have an excuse to not be working. ( all the training, then "team" meetings) Then the plant in okc closed, witch stunk, it was a dream job.

Six Sigma is just a structured process to do problem solving using data based decisions all along the way. Lots of info on it on the web and hundreds of books have been written. Lean is pretty different but they both work well together and are often integrated.

I have no idea if that S&P 500 statistic is true or not but since I teach both Lean and Six Sigma (http://www.value-train.com) and can qualify as an applied statistician, I'm suspicious of any claim like that in the mass media which typically doesn't deal with any data well and prefers sensationalist headlines to truth. If you really want to know, you can probably figure it out yourself. There are so many corrupt attempts at doing anything in the corporate world that just because a company says they are, for instance, ISO certified, doesn't mean they are any good or that they make good strategic decisions. Anyone who understands data analysis knows that just because two things are correlated with each other doesn't mean there is a cause and effect between them. And even if they were correlated, a three person company is not going to have similar characteristics as one listed on the S&P 500 so it won't help to compare yourself to them!

Although I do corporate training, my training practice is primarily aimed at individuals and specifically those in transition. What I tell them when they ask if it will help them is to consider why they are even thinking about it. Most either hope it will help them get more job interviews or offers, or if they are consulting, make them more attractive for potential clients. Those are both answerable questions, at least you can get some useful clues, by doing a bit of web research on job descriptions if you are looking for a job or looking at RFQs if you are looking for business. If potential clients are asking if you have formal Six Sigma training or certification and you aren't getting as much business as you want, it's likely to help. If they rarely ask and you have enough work it's not likely to help.

If you want to chat about this, feel free to call but not today (Aug 2). I can tell you how to do that web research.

Bill Bentley

Value-Train

678-921-5238

Thank you, regarding the S&P I was not comparing my company but those of my customers who appear to be using Six Sigma to a degree. I have read, Six Sigma for dummies to understand all the acronyms and communicate clearly. I apply more traditional principles from Deming, Taylor and Carnegie... not that I am not up for "truely new" techniques... $4800 plus approximately 300 hrs to go from intro to Black Belt is a financial cost that I am wrestling with to come up with some sensible ROI. I invested a huge amount of time and money getting my License as a Registered Professional Engineer....any thoughts on ROI?, right now business is good with out but what about in 5 years.....

I welcome your thoughts

thank you very much

tom

As PE if you are doing well i assure you you would do much better with out a certificate of Black belt after 10years also.Six sigma Blackbelt can never be equated to Your PE certification.

crm

Thank your for your feed back..I have worked with several black belts that have not as yet earned thier PE License but "have office hours and are "" Black Belt Practicioners""....while I very much respect thier stature as "black belts" I can't help but think that they (alone) can not purchase errors & ommissions insurance......your thoughts.... btw PE is 2 State issued Licensure Exams, 5 required recommendations from other PE's and 10,000 hrs of practical demonstration of engineering jugement and skill...submitting 1 lb of paper as objective evidence of engineeing experience and judgment. NOTE:Insurance costs are approximately 6% of revenues...... Can I make more money with the BB qualificaiton?

Thoughts and comments of Black belts + PE regersterd engineers who own thier own business out there pounding the pavement as I am.....

Is there a hourly premium for BB or Not? I apologize to be so Brutally honest, Question: does it make you more money or not? If more how much?

In mid size or big companies does it increase share holder equity or not? If it increases: how much?

thanks very much

tom

I'm surprised at the number of notes about this and the strength of opinions. Having run several engineering organizations and companies and hired, worked with or managed hundreds of engineers, I also have an experienced based opinion about the value of both a Black Belt and a PE. Neither are worth the paper they are printed on by themselves. Most people who can get through engineering school and stay focused can obtain either one and that doesn't make them great. I've seen plenty of mediocre PEs and plenty of mediocre Black Belts who I'd never consider hiring. It's the person who makes themselves great by their skill at solving problems rationally and dealing with people, not these titles. What these titles can often do is open a door. The PE opens certain doors, mostly where it's required by law or contract, and the Black Belt opens other doors. Both are often over-hyped but both are independent evidence that someone has gone the extra mile to learn something and applied themselves to scale a mountain of sorts. That makes them both useful as a screening tool for an employer, perhaps under different conditions, when that employer is looking at a pile of 1,000 resumes for their job posting. I consider them to be fairly independent measures of skill. The PE is supposed to be a measure design competence in certain, rather narrow functional areas. A BB is a measure of overall process improvement competence. One doesn't imply the other, nor is one necessarily included in the other skill set.

Rather than argue about the value of either of these, just accept them for what they are, useful in the right circumstance and not useful in others. As some of you have pointed out, a PE or a BB plus $2 will only get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks unless you know how to sell yourself and apply your knowledge, have good references, etc. And if you want to consider the popularity of Six Sigma to the power of group think and mass hysteria, that's fine but that's not a rational way to look at it. The very fact that employers use it as a screening tool makes it valuable whether we like it or not. Search Monster.com for 'Black Belt' then search it for PE LICENSE and check the results for yourself (1202 vs 937 this morning). Both are very popular. The PE has an edge in places where it's required by law but that's a small fraction of the available engineering jobs. While you are at it, search Monster for PE license AND Black Belt and you'll only find five. Different certs, different skills, different markets. Pick the one that works for you. Doing both is probably not useful.

Thank you for your feedback, its an interesting position. good discussions. I like the monster search comparision, I haven't done it but from your numbers its data that puts current hiring trends into perspective. I have had some similar experiences, one of my former co-workers is a high school graduate and likely one of the top 5 smartest engineers I have ever worked with....I agree whole heartedly that peoples skills follow some form of distribution and there are the mediocre, low performers and high.