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IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 12:02 PM

This thread is about taking a problem the military has faced, and finding answers or possible counter-measures against this battlefield threat, along with other types of mines.

I would consider this to be a "DARPA hard" issue to solve. I would not be surprised to learn (down the road) that they are already on this like a duck on a June bug, and already have answers, if not the answer.

Without using drone intelligence to know when nefarious guerilla enemies are placing IED's, is there another certain way to know where the devices are without learning the hard way? Could a swarm of small drones buffer the road zone ahead of a column? Could there be one super-sensitive detector that could work in an area where there has already been ordinance use and weapon fire?

Is there a type of radar out there we have yet to discover (similar to GPR, but way better in resolution, faster, and capable of signal lock)?

How much power would be required to "sonic disrupt" such a weapon? What else would it do as an undesired consequence?

Whatever the technology ends up being, it has to (1) have an extremely high reliability factor, (2) has a high discrimination against false positives at the same time, and (3) can operate in guidance mode for disabling/destruction of the weapon.

What if this new technology could catch the culprits in the act by prematurely detonating the IED at the time they are placing it? What would that take? For all I know, it might be easier to raster-scan an area with a 50 MW maser and overheat everything in the line of irradiation, including the humans.

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#1

Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 12:43 PM

How much power would be required to "sonic disrupt" such a weapon? What else would it do as an undesired consequence?

Germans in WWII did quite a bit of research in that area.

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#2
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 1:24 PM

Second concept (more universal, perhaps): Micro-drone swarm fans out near roadway, they lock onto chemical signals (or other signal that ferrets out IED), then they stack themselves vertically over the IED - transmit coordinates for an incoming round to disable the IED. Another task: swarms finds enemy personnel in ambush position, flies to them, calls in fire, or alternatively flies into the muzzles of their assault weapons, effectively rendering them dangerous to anyone attempting to fire the weapon. Call them "tar-babies" because the stick like glue.

If the enemy is holding an RPG, have the drones swarm it, and self-detonate on the warhead before it can be launched, or just fly up the combatants nose, that should work. Eyes sprayed with a small drop of ghost pepper extract would also be a good target.

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#3
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 1:29 PM

no answered here, but could amount to quite an escalation.

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#4
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 1:31 PM

$$$$ cash registers are standing by. LOL

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#5
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 1:48 PM

I'll put in a buy order

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#6
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 1:53 PM

Am willing to bet this would make a fantastic direction to take a retirement portfolio position in.

Unfortunately, the only position I can afford right now is sitting, not standing orders.

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#7
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 2:09 PM

at least you have something to sit on.

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#8
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 2:55 PM

That reminds me of a cartoon from years past, about "go ahead and have a bite, everyone else has", says the fellow with a large chunk missing out of his arse.

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#9
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 3:30 PM

I'd invest in bottled water. I mean companies that are sucking water out of the ground and bottling it.

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#11
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 4:14 PM

Yes, they are making a killing right now, especially with the Flint MI scandal.

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#14
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 5:39 PM

Flint is small potatoes.

Nestlé's Permit to Pump California Springwater Expired Decades Ago .

"No state agency has an accurate grasp on how much water California's 108 bottling plants use. "

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#13
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Re: IED advanced detection and disabling

06/02/2016 4:58 PM

Coca Cola was going to set up a water bottling plant in Michigan I beleive. But it had to be approved by all the members of the Great Lake Charter. At the time I beleive it was nixed.

But I wouldn't doubt it, if they found a way.

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#10

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 3:50 PM

Nothing says "we are here to help you local indigenous population" than carpet bombing or death-raying areas before you drive into them. A PR nightmare.

Unfortunately the biggest problem I see is in the first letter of IED "Improvised". The same problem occurs with offensive weapons vs defensive systems, as defensive systems get better weapons are adapted to bypass them (not just get bigger and bigger to overwhelm them).

If you go high tech to defeat the IEDs (such as sonic, or jamming) they will just go even lower tech (pressure plates, mechanical switches, mechanical or chemical timers, etc).

Sensitive chemical sniffers seem to be the best option for detection of commonly available and manufactured explosives and re-purposed ordinance, but I don't know how they fare in real world conditions outside.

Drones and robots would seem to be a good solution also, but are not suitable for all situations to replace good old boots on ground.

Advances in surveillance and AI could make detection while planting more likely, but obviously I would want people to make the final decision before a drone launches a missile.

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#12
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 4:19 PM

I agree. Shock and awe, baby! Shocked that we are there, in awe that they cannot touch us any more, and we have them by the short hairs (if there are any left).

I really like the idea that some high explosives (possibly in the primers of IED's) are sensitive enough that if we catch them in the act of placement, it can be made to appear (invisible strong radio beam) that they had a nasty accident.

The micro drones would only hang around for currently detected devices, and leave about 30 seconds before the artillery round makes impact. There will collateral damage, unfortunately, in such an instance due to no means of warning the locals to get off the road.

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#15
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 6:13 PM

Umm, well they could wait until the road is clear. It's not like the local civilians are the targets of roadside IEDs after all.

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#23
In reply to #10

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 10:19 AM

I believe a good defensive action will be a good offense as well! But initiating just a remedial action may not completely cure the ailment. Specially if half hazardly implemented can on the otherhand be confused also as a threat rather than a cure! As such will always present itself as a challenge for someone to improvise and overcome, to neutralize or merely just to get even!

How about just keeping some distance, far enough, away from the enemies? Cannot be construde as offensive yet will be very effective in minimizing the harm done! Putting more efforts and emphasis on improving our intelligence gathering abilities thus keeping us more secure while making it tougher for the enemies to get into the country!

"Insiders or local home brewed terrorists on the otherhand can be addressed locally and discourage or controlled more effectively resulting in much lower casualties!,

The military establishment to be fully effective in combating outside threats must also need to be made as an apolitical and independent entity! By doing so will make their decisions /actions making processes more effective, not politically influenced! No more finger pointing or "passing the buck" so to speak! Being independent will be fully responsible for all of their decisions and resultant actions!

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#16

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 9:37 PM

How much would it take not to produce IED anymore and control that it doesn't?

How much a chance for civilians to have any sort of IED locating technology? Who will and does suffer from this and years later?

How about detonating IED in the plant they are manufactured in?

How about a electronic key in IED's that can be used for controlled detonation: lets say manufactured in US and US troops and allies carry the electronic detonator in their first vehicle? At least US mines will not kill their own soldiers.

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#17
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 10:03 PM

How about identifying yourself and posting rational questions?��

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#18
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 10:58 PM

How about leaving the questions and answers to those of us that (for example) actually work in and with the military, as you don't seem to know what an IED is and who actually makes them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_explosive_device

Jack - Military sub-contractor

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#24
In reply to #18

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 12:50 PM

I agree that to completely detect every device, that will be DARPA hard stuff to figure out. Eventually, anything not rocks, dirt, water, plants will be suspect (in other words it has to have a clean profile). I see "swarm" intelligence gathering as possibly a key development in this, and I am sure others have too, and applied it to at least a test scenario.

Wouldn't it be great if everyone on the planet realized there are no enemies here, just brothers and sisters....that would be Biblical in its proportions if that came to pass. I am just not quite that optimistic to think it will be seen in my lifetime.

Thus, on the other hand, if the thing needs to be pressed, we want to have ALL the tools that could be potentially useful available to our fighters and as few tools as is possible available to theirs.

There is area denial, there is weapons deployment denial, and there is resource logistics and finance denial, all of which should be part of the pentagon's strategies in future confrontations with those who want to lawlessly harm the innocent populations around them.

It is also high time to call a spade a spade. The real infidels are the ones promulgating the most vile and illegal forms of hatred and murder on a grand scale, and then publicizing it. We know who they are, and their days are numbered with a small subset of the integers. A time and place of our choosing is approaching, and then the score that has been racking up will be settled and settled hard.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 1:49 PM

You need to think out of the box. Everything you mention has been addressed in one form or another.

The most successful detection of IED's has been in finding disturbed earth which was previously undisturbed. We have a bunch of very successful ways of accomplishing that which has dramatically decreased IED incidents.

More difficult to detect are car/truck and suicide bombs which are increasingly being used in urban areas. There are a lot of talented people working on that issue.

And I wouldn't even think about trying to address the political limitations imposed on our warriors!! That is not the purview of DARPA or any other military organization!

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 2:08 PM

Yeah, it's apparently above all but one pay grade.

Our country definitely needs to seek professional help, though.

Right now, I have had too much sugar, and my brain feels the box lid slamming shut.

Have a happy weekend! Maybe after resting up, I will feel more like climbing out of the box again Monday morning. Stay safe.

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#27
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 2:19 PM

You have a good weekend, too. I just finished mowing the lawn in temps and humidity that are much too high, so I feel a nap coming on!!

Hooker

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#21
In reply to #16

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 7:05 AM

some Foolish statements you have..

Not to produce an IED... You can go back to a rock and a stick, there's been traps.

I normally never look at gruesome videos, but on a digital news media, it showed a suicide bomber with an explosive device strapped on trying to get going on a moped or some thing, and it prematurely went off. The video showed the suicide bombers upper torso with the lower half above the hips blown off (it was blurred out), and he was still alive.

As bad as it was, I thought it was quite fitting, too bad no one was there to get in that suicide bombers face a yell, "No Virgins for you"

and if there where, he couldn't do nothing about it.

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#22
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 8:45 AM

So you recommend selling IED (improvised explosive devices) directly to the enemy, just not telling them about the "kill" switch?

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#19

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 11:02 PM

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but IED detection programs have been ongoing since shortly after the first one exploded. They use a wide variety of technologies like Infrared, lidar, magnetometers, data analysis, and much more, mounted in a variety of aircraft, manned or otherwise.

One project I worked on a number of years ago involved an aircraft with 2 pilots and 6 equipment operators. The equipment needed 37 separate antennas/sensors mounted on the exterior. It was highly successful at its anti-IED mission at the time. But, as has been mentioned, the problem evolves.

Unfortunately, you won't find much detail of the really sophisticated stuff for obvious security reasons. And almost nobody will talk about the programs because they are not willing to jeopardize our war fighter's health or lives. The last thing we want the bad guys to know is what we already know or do.

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#20

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/02/2016 11:54 PM

Well we have this thing...The Panama, followed by the Mastiff 3...

"Remote-control "Panama" Land Rover with ground-penetrating radar to detect IEDs followed by Mastiff with Choker mine rollers."...

There really is a wide array of anti- IED equipment....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-IED_equipment

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#28

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 2:43 PM

I have practically no knowledge of these hideous things. (IED) Only that seen on TV.

Of most concern are those detonated by a cell phone call. A distant viewer makes the
call to the IED when detonation is required. For these maybe a signal blocking device
could be used? Another, equally dangerous due to mobility, is a blackmailed carrier.
e.g. some one in an explosive vest who has no choice in the matter, other than suicide.
Again a signal blocking equipment may cure it, but would not stop a timed detonation.

The men need all the help they can get. Can they be supplied with equipment to create
a total signaling block, for say 100ft perimeter around them or their vehicle?
This would be switched off (temp.) for their own calls naturally. Mechanical detonation
could be over come by the lead vehicle pushing a water barrel or flail maybe. etc.
A line of small water rollers or flail some 10 or more feet across to clear a path?

Perhaps we are (and have been) tackling it in the wrong way? Can we convince
(brain wash) these malicious persons into understanding - it is absolutely pointless?
1. Even if they "win" we do not want to be ruled by them, ever!
2. Their circle of "friends" will be forever limited. if not by death, by fear of death.
3. They would convert more people to their cause if they helped them, with kindness.
4. They could become great - by using to build with what they currently waste. etc.. etc..

Not only could they influence far more people but also obtain far more respect. QED.

If we could simply get them to realise, by violence, they have chosen the "wrong" way.
(I do not say "educate" as this would belittle and unnecessarily antagonise them.)

To avoid all these lives lost, material and energy wasted, the expense of war, we
should put far more effort into getting them to realise why their failure is inevitable;
and how they can lead a far better, and more successful life, by renouncing their ways.

This I truly believe is the best way forward. Far better than continuing the violence.
Violence which, if we need to do only in a defensive way, until hopefully our
"propaganda" enables them to see sense. (the error of their ways.)
That is, by considerate persistent intelligent persuasion, and not the barrel of a gun.
Perhaps, if in turn, they all had to tell a joke it may convince them life was worth living?

jt.

I was telling a girl in the pub about my ability to guess what day a
woman was born - just by feeling her boobs!
"Really" she said, "Go on then...try."
After about thirty seconds of delightful fondling she began to lose patience
with me and said. "Come on, tell me then...what day was I born?"
I said, "Yesterday?."

In Search Of Intelligent Life, Somewhere; Anywhere.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 4:08 PM

Well we have all these...

"Duke Version 3 Vehicle mounted CREW system: Duke V3, manufactured by SRCTec, Inc., is a counter radio-controlled improvised explosive device (RCIED) electronic warfare (CREW) system that was developed to provide U.S. forces critical, life-saving protection against a wide range of threats. It is a field deployable system that was designed to have minimal size, weight and power requirements while providing simple operation and optimal performance in order to provide force protection against radio-controlled IEDs. CREW Duke V3 consists of a primary unit known as the CREW Duke V2 and a secondary unit that features advanced electronic warfare subsystems to counter emerging advanced RCIED technologies. Advanced EW components and techniques are implemented to combat complex threat infrastructures in order to provide a maximum protection radius while minimizing the overall system cost and prime power consumption requirements.

CVRJ CREW Vehicle Receiver Jammer

CVRJ (CREW Vehicle Receiver Jammer) U.S. Marines: [1], The primary purpose of the CVRJ system is to defeat existing Radio Frequency (RF) threats and newly identified Hard-to-Kill RF threats. The CVRJ system accomplishes its primary mission by jamming each threat's transmitted RF signals. The secondary purpose of the CVRJ system is to add the capability to combine multiple internal RF signals and external RF inputs from other systems, and serve as the conduit for transmitting those RF signals while maintaining system interoperability. It accomplishes both missions via 15 waveform programmable RF channels. The system is software controlled to meet specific threats. Indicators on the CVRJ front panel and Remote Control Unit (RCU) allow the operator to observe system health and diagnostic messages. Built-In-Test (BIT) routines run during system initialization and operation that notify the operator of system faults by illuminating indicators referred to as "annunciators" and by displaying text messages on the RCU display. The system is highly automated which reduces operator interaction. The system draws up to 36 amps of vehicle power, weighs approximately 69 lbs, and measures 13"H x 14"W x 19"D.

Vehicle Jammer System STAR V: Protective modular jamming system STAR V 740 is intended for a protection against RCIED. The system either prevents the activation of RCIED or it can significantly reduce the distance for a bomb activation. The system is used to protect the special EOD teams or for a convoy protection. The jamming is performed by random frequency sweeping in a few frequencies sub-bands at the same time. Each sub-band has a possibility to set up to two communication windows for mutual radio communication. The jamming system is equipped with 8 wideband transmitters, 3 low pass filters, 1 combiner, 6 Omni-directional antennas and 8 wide-band digital exciters. The higher level of jamming efficiency is accomplished by using more parallel subsystems and digital technology. The jamming system is intended as a mobile system which is installed in the vehicle. It is equipped with the Omni-directional antennas that are part of the system. The output power of the jammer is up to 740 W. The jamming system is easily controlled and the failures are easily diagnosed. It is controlled on the front panel. The operator can switch on/off particular transmitting systems and subsystems, set up to three jamming sub-bands in each. Dwell time in each sub-band can also be modified. Jammer is equipped with IP, RS 485 and USB interface. System is also equipped with special SW which can be installed on a notebook or a PC. Special remote control box is also included. The system's voltage is from 22 V to 30 Volts.

Two soldiers with the 25th Infantry Division operate Thor and Minehound, two counter-IED devices

Thor III dismounted CREW system: The Thor III system consists of three dismounted man-pack subsystems, one battery charger, and twenty-four batteries (BB-2590/U). Each subsystem contains a R/T (low band, mid band or high band), a Remote Control Unit (RCU), an integration/pack frame, an Rx/Tx Antenna (low band, mid band, or high band), a GPS antenna, cables, and software. Each subsystem is housed in a separate transit case with protective covers. The purpose of the Thor III dismounted system is to provide the user in the field with a wearable Radio-Controlled Improvised Explosive Device (RCIED) jammer that has been designed to counter an array of frequency diverse threats. The system is an expandable, active and reactive, scanning-receiver-based jammer with multiple jamming signal sources that allow it to counter multiple simultaneous threats.

Joint IED Neutralizer (JIN): In 2005, Ionatron attempted to develop an anti IED device that would "zap" IEDs from a distance by using lasers to ionize the air and allow man-made lightning to shoot towards the devices detonating them at a safe distance. By using femtosecond lasers light pulses that last less than a ten-trillionth of a second JIN could carve conductive channels of ionized oxygen in the air. Through these channels, Ionatron's blaster sent man-made lighting bolts.

Thor IED Zappers: The vehicular system is mounted on a remotely controlled weapon station, carrying the laser beam director and high-energy laser and coaxial 12.7mm machine gun to neutralize improvised explosive devices from a safe, standoff distance.[5] Restricted link[6]

Ultra Wide Band High Powered Electro Magnetics: An UWB-HPEM system typically consists of the following components: a battery-based direct current power supply, an actuation system, a semiconductor-based ultra-wideband pulse generator and an ultra-wideband antenna. Depending on the type of threat, it can either set off a sensor-triggered IEDs in a controlled explosion or prevent it from being remotely detonated by radio or mobile phone. A UWB-HPEM system can be loaded onto a vehicle, creating an electromagnetic protection zone for a convoy, potentially in combination with other systems.[7]

Other Countermeasures[edit]

Ground Ordnance Land Disruptor: G.O.L.D is a user filled, explosively driven Counter-IED system that renders buried IEDs safe through a combination of disruption, component separation and expulsion from the ground allowing the IED to remain biometrically intact.[8]

Detection Systems[edit]

A variety of technologies are used to detect landmines, improvised explosive devices (IED) and unexploded ordnance (UXO), including acoustic sensors, animals and biologically-based detection systems (bees, dogs, pigs, rats), chemical sensors, electromagnetic sensors and hyperspectral sensor analysis, generalized radar techniques, ground penetrating radar, lidar and electro-optical sensors (including hyperspectral and millimeter wave), magnetic signatures, nuclear sensors, optical sensors, seismic acoustic sensors, and thermal detection.

Counter-IED Reconnaissance Planes: The U.S. Army's Task Force ODIN-E flies manned reconnaissance aircraft that use an array of full-motion video (FMV), electro-optical (EO), infra-red (IR), andsynthetic aperture radar (SAR) imagery sensors to find IEDs.[9]

IED Volumetric Detection:[10]

Microwave Based Explosive Caches Detection: Raytheon UK's Soteria vehicle-mounted stand-off system provides high-definition IED detection, confirmation and threat diagnostics from a significant distance. Soteria's optical processing technology has the following capabilities: a high probability of IED detection with a low false positive rate, detection of high, medium, low and zero metal content IEDs, assisted target recognition, and day and night operability. Soteria is also equipped with ground vibration monitoring capabilities in the front of the vehicle.[11]

Non-linear Junction Detector (NLJD): A portable NLJD allows the operator to search voids and areas where they are unable to gain physical or visual access, in order to detect electronic components and determine if the area is free from IEDs.

Laser IED Detection: Scientists are learning to adapt lasers to detect, or defeat, IEDs.[12]

Mine detectors: A portable, hand-held or worn device to detect buried IEDs. There are many different models from several different companies currently in use worldwide by U.S. and coalition forces. These are not your run of the mill metal detectors that you can buy at your local store, they are highly sophisticated, ultra sensitive, programmable devices.[13]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-IED_equipment#Electronic_Countermeasures_.28Jammers.29

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#32
In reply to #29

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 4:47 PM

That is some great stuff! We want to be all about saving life and limb for our troops, and hell on the enemy.

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#30
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 4:10 PM

"If we could simply get them to realise, by violence, they have chosen the "wrong" way."

Try sitting down with a fundamentalist of any religion that has had their convictions drilled into them from the cradle and let me know how successful you are at convincing them they are wrong.

Hooker

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#31
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 4:42 PM

Herein lies the crux of the problem....True believers are disconnected from reality, they live in an alternate deluded reality....Common sense and logic, the tools of the truth seeker, have been replaced with a paycheck, camaraderie and a heroic death wish...

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#33
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 4:50 PM

don't leave out delusions of grandeur.

It really is up to the "main stream" of any particular religion, to seek out these "cult" followers that are militarized, and put them back on the correct path. Westerners simply cannot get out our message, and into these craniums, except through high speed metal ventilation technique.

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#34
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 5:49 PM

"True believers are disconnected from reality, they live in an alternate deluded reality"

Hmmm, funny that they say the same things about us non-true believers. Good luck in proving this "theorem" from either direction.

Hooker

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#38
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 8:04 PM

Well I think common sense and logic is clearly on our side....and certainly tolerance and moderation....Man cannot thrive without the freedom to pursue his own destiny....This has been proven again and again throughout history....

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#39
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 8:20 PM

We westerners have attained common sense and logical decision making from our forefathers. Study Age Of Enlightenment.

This is what freed us from religious tyranny. Unfortunately, most of Islam has not benefited from such a period. They are, quite literally, still in the Dark Ages.

Hoping not to get banished for this discussion.

Hooker

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#35
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 7:12 PM

Replying to Hooker...

Ask them, "what they would do if you shot their friend or relative?"

When they reply, with retaliation, ask them "how does this stop?"

i.e. they kill, we kill. we kill, they kill. What is the point? For them?
(and tactfully remind him, there are a lot more of us.)

We are not going to convince them easily.
Like I said, considerate, persistent, intelligent, conversion. It would take time and patience.
It may take a generation, or more; but everyone converted is a winner, one
who hopefully will convince more, when they see the sense of changing.

Or, we can just continue shooting the Bas****ds - and what will this get us?

Simply, conversion is the ONLY way to win. To remove the hatred and conviction.

jt.

It doesn't matter what I do or say, I told the wife, I'm always wrong in your eyes.
That's not true, she said.

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#36
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 7:35 PM

After much pondering I think we are touching the edge of a topic that is banned from CR4 so I will bow out with best wishes.

Hooker

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#37
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/03/2016 7:45 PM

A generation? Try 100 generations and counting.

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#40
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/06/2016 2:03 PM

Just tell the "friendly" ones you meet: "There are no enemies here, only brothers."

Swords will fall down and clang on the stones.

Also, don't believe every cock and bull story you hear out there.

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#41
In reply to #28

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/06/2016 3:45 PM

Tripwire triggers (in buildings for example) are (or were) also a problem, but the troops figured out a low tech solution a while ago.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/6727/

I am not sure how current this is now, but it is a good example of how low tech solutions can work far better than high tech ones.

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#42
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/06/2016 4:34 PM

Yep, smart Joe's, eh?

Maybe there is something that can be sprayed from a plane that will make some obvious color on the ground where IED is buried....not aware of any attempt to do so, and probably way too expensive and unreliable, but orange or yellow dirt, or vivid green dirt should be pretty good warning if it worked. Most explosives use some form of organic or inorganic nitrates... these might react chemically with benzenediazonium salts to form azo dye. It would all depend on the surface concentration on the ground.

Again, probably not good real world solution? I dunno, it is reasonably low tech.

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#43
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/06/2016 5:17 PM

I think you will find the IED container will be sealed enough to make this approach unfeasible. Chemical and contact sniffers and detectors only work because they can pick up the tiny traces.

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#44
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/06/2016 5:42 PM

These IED makers don't work in clean rooms. There are plenty of residual traces of known explosives on the various parts and pieces of the bombs. That's why we still have dogs and bomb sniffing machines all over the place.

Lately, though, the bad guys have apparently been playing with thermite production. That compound is undetectable by current machines. I have a personal suspicion that it was a thermite bomb that took down the latest Egypt Airlines loss.

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#45
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/06/2016 6:54 PM

If it was a thermite bomb what would have been used to spread it? Thermite has a very localised effect otherwise and it would have to be very carefully placed to do anything more than cause minor decompression and a fire. All of which should have given enough time for the pilots to register and call in the details of the emergency.

If anything the eventual decompression as the thermite burns through and out the plane would have removed the thermite from the plane and potentially helped reduce any fires as the air was sucked out (for example if the device was in the cargo hold).

I must admit I haven't been following the latest airplane loss, but it is more common for it (air plane crash) to be an accident than a terrorist attack.

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#46
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/06/2016 7:28 PM

Are you a pilot or an aircraft mechanic? What do you base your knowledge of aircraft fire progression on?

"reduce any fires as the air was sucked out" Do you really believe that? Moving air intensifies fires. I can't imagine fire reduction in this way in an aircraft. And fires of any kind do not stay localized very long.

A pound of thermite ignited in an area of an aircraft that is primarily aluminum, possibly carbon fiber, and plastic would "likely" be devastating and would probably propagate widely before the thermite core managed to burn out the bottom of the aircraft, igniting all the typical flammables that exist on commercial airliners. And suppose on the way down it landed in a jam packed baggage compartment.

And I have tried to follow the investigation of the the Egypt Air flight. The computerized maintenance system reported smoke in the vicinity of a forward lavatory and avionics compartment before the aircraft went down. This would probably be devastating in an A320 at cruising altitude.

And let me reiterate. The idea that a thermite (or other) bomb brought down the flight is HIGHLY speculative on my part.

Hooker <-- who is a private pilot and a military flight engineer with over 2000 flight hours. I have also spent in excess of 10 years in aircraft structural design and modification.

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#47
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/06/2016 10:07 PM

And let me reiterate. The idea that a thermite (or other) bomb brought down the flight is HIGHLY speculative on my part.

That's ok so were my comments that thermite wouldn't be effective unless the circumstances were just right.

Are you a pilot or an aircraft mechanic? What do you base your knowledge of aircraft fire progression on?

No, just an Engineer with a bit of knowledge on aircraft construction that has watched almost every episode of "Air crash investigation", "Mayday" and "Mythbusters".

To my knowledge I am not aware of any actual aircraft incidents where something like this has happened.

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#48
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/07/2016 8:11 AM

I hate to buck against you, but I see you are doubling down on a mistake about thermite vs. thermite bombs. Thermite, yes, is a welding compound of aluminum dust fines and iron oxide, and yes, once initiated is very hard to put out, best to let it burn out. It was historically used (as we all were taught) in early welding of railroad rails, etc.

A thermite bomb is not just thermite. Thermite is not known to release large volumes of gas needed to make an expansion bomb. By addiing another source of fuel and additional oxidizer, the thing basically becomes some sort of jacked-up rocket fuel. As we all know, rockets without a nozzle don't go anywhere, they go everywhere!

A very small amount of thermite with some additional fuel could be used as a nasty bad fire starter that would burn through aluminum and plastic easily. My feeling is that placed near key fly-by-wire components, loss of control could be fast and complete. If located near fuel cell, and plane had less than full condition in that cell, that is all that is needed to take off a wing.

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#50
In reply to #48

Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/07/2016 3:42 PM

I hate to buck against you

No problem, that's how we learn and this is a discussion forum after all.

Perhaps I was being too optimistic in how much damage one of these devices could do, and I certainly forgot all about planes with fuel tanks in the fuselage.

Points taken.

My whole thinking was actually along the line of having to keep the thermite IED simple and compact so that it would not be detectable through existing X-ray and body scanner inspections, hence limiting its destructive potential. More along the lines of an IED made out of thermite welding kits or <left out for security reasons>, less IED thermite grenade with its additional oxidiser agent.

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#49
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/07/2016 1:51 PM

I am very familiar with magnesium fires in military helicopters. Magnesium is only slightly less volatile than thermite and just as difficult to extinguish.

Imagine the panic that would ensue if one of THESE was set off in a commercial aircraft.

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#51
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/07/2016 4:45 PM

That would wipe out anything in contact with it, pretty much. No flight computer, no flight, very simple, and to the bone evil.

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#52
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/08/2016 6:50 AM

I beleive magnesium was used on the engines on the B29 bombers in WWII. It was a good thing the war ended when it did.

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#53
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/08/2016 7:33 AM

Most American helicopter and fighter jet transmission/gearbox housings are magnesium. Also, some engine compressor section housings, and miscellaneous other parts.

My beloved Chinook's five transmissions all have magnesium housings. I can tell you from personal experience that if they catch on fire from a crash you just walk away and let them burn out.

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#55
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/08/2016 10:04 AM

True that. Magnesium is something else once started. Argon is about the only extinguisher that works, maybe CO2, not sure about that one.

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#56
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/08/2016 11:01 AM

When I was a machinist we kept large buckets of a dry powder close at hand when we were machining the stuff. I don't remember what the powder was but it supposedly formed a crust over the burning mag and smothered it. Then we also had special handling procedures and containers for disposing of chips and powder.

I hated working with the stuff. Always made me nervous.

Hooker

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#57
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/08/2016 11:22 AM

I have machined (smalls) of this before in my home shop while working on phonon batteries using it. A fire there would be a total loss, have to be very careful, no magic powder at hand, just dirt.

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#54
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Re: IED Advanced Detection and Disabling

06/08/2016 10:03 AM

There might have been some magnesium, but what I remember were hot engine parts that used some beryllium copper, and probably the wrong mix at that. Engine failures and fires on B-29's were an early Achilles heel to these.

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