Fuel Flow Meter

a TOOL to verify fuel consumption of Cat diesel engines

The sensors would need to be able to handle fuel flow in the 1200 gal. per hour range.

Let me see.....that is on the range of 20 gallons per second. Are you sure about that? Me thinks you have your numbers out of wack by a factor or two.

I don't think jumbo jets consume 20 gallons per second.

It's 20 gallons a minute.

And which engine do you have being the Caterpillar 797 is their largest unit at 4000 brake HP of which I know damn well it does not burn 20 GPM and I rather even doubt its fuel systems recirculate that much fuel a minute.

At ~4000 HP the fuel burn should fall between 150 and 200 GPH depending on fuel quality fuel grade and emissions compliance or not.

Non emissions with quality high grade fuel would be well under 175 GPH but with emissions well over 175 and with low quality low grade possibly 200 plus.

I'm basing that rough estimate from what I recall of the large 100 - 2500 HP cat diesel I was around when I worked in the oil fields and extrapolating for their largest unit rated HP.

BTW from personal experience I can say that if your have a fuel consumption readout on yours and it's an emission compliant engine you have good reason to question its accuracy.

Where I worked the two pump units that has the big Cat engines always said they used at least 10%% less fuel then the fuel jockeys numbers said based on fueling their tanks. What was also interesting was the one older pump unit that had the early non emissions setup its numbers were always near dead on with the fuel guys numbers. Hmm...

1000kw fully loaded burns about 71 gallons per hour....so 4000kw about 284gph...3/4 load about 200gph...1/2 load ~ 146gph...

http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/temp/Fuel_Consumption_Chart.pdf

http://www.pon-cat.com/~/media/poncat/power/nl/files/whitepaper%20fuel%20systems.ashx?ext=.pdf

Caterpillar makes more than just dirt moving equipment.

this application in particular is a 3616 DITA, rated at 8046 hp.

it's a generator for oil field applications.

Interesting and also odd being when I Googled, Caterpillar's largest diesel engine. it shows the 797 series to be it.

Is the 3616 DTA built by a different company and Caterpillar just puts their name on it?

Also was it so hard to post this engines specs now Vs at the begining so we had some idea of what type and size of engine you were working with?

Methinks someone else is off by a factor of 60!

(1200 gal/h)/(60 min/h)=20 gal/min

Joe - you missed it by a factor of 60. There are only 60 minutes in an hour, and that is 3600 seconds. 1200 gph = 20 gpm = 0.333 gps, OK?

I still think also that we need more information from OP as to why people think the fuel consumption is off? Could it not be that the fuel consumption meter is right, and the Cat engines (especially the big ones) suck (fuel)? Maybe the test conditions were not correctly logged, and so, of course the engine is going to consume more fuel doing the same work.

The fuel does not expand more than about 6 ppm per degree. That should be nearly negligible over the "normal" test conditions. He needs one channel of flow for incoming, one channel for return, and one temperature, and one algorithm to calculate fuel density, and one more conversion from volume flow to mass flow.

Why not just buy a G.D. mass-flow meter to start with? How long is the test duration? A whole hour? Can't you run the test just a few minutes and compare to the on board flow meter? Install a tank, install load cells under it, and go to town.

Generally speaking, the engine is supplied with enough fuel to burn 1/3 and the other 2/3 returned to a fuel cooler to cool the injectors. Two flow meters would be needed to calculate how much the engine uses. The temperature rise on the fuel returned is about 60 degrees F higher than supplied. Depending on the load, it could be more.

OK, use a second receiver tank for the hot return fuel, and install load cells under it also. Check with your local weighing company supplier for a weighing set-up that is OK for rolling, even bouncing use. That might be beyond their scope. The tanks would have to be pretty well sealed with liquid separator on the vents to keep from sloshing it out on the ground if mobile.

There are also instruments that can measure density directly. Then you can use something simple, even a G.F. Signet flow-meter with stainless steel probe parts. Get the paddle wheel type, since these would work just fine on a clean fluid, with no magnetic debris included. The probes have to be set up in the instrument for the pipe size they are inserted into. Read the flow and density, and you have mass flow, very simply, no need to measure temperature, unless you just feel that you need it.

That would a bit difficult in a ship or supply boat.

Not as hard as you think. Think small tanks, on a hydraulic suspension. These are supposed to be auxiliary and for testing purposes only. Make them the same size, at about 100-200 gallons each, and removable when the tests are done.

Load cells for firmly mounted tanks like this are certainly within the ken of those in that business.

OR - time the removal from one aux. tank, then switch engine back to main tank at the end of the test interval. To get the return flow rate correct, put a cooler on it, and flow it to another (overflow) tank, and time it to overflow point back to main tank. That ain't rocket science.

it all sounds a bit over complicated.

OK then, go buy the expensive flow meter.

I'm sorry, I just copied and pasted your first comment.

Since you're asking us to do your shopping, we deserve more information, because you already have a baseline against which you are evaluating, the baseline being the Cat factory tool.

What does the factory flowmeter look like? (how does it connect to the flow pipe?)

How does it provide a read-out?

Does it do volumetric flow AND density AND a correction to a normalized or standardized condition?

How is it powered?

Is it considered portable in use?

What else does it do? (that you haven't mentioned but in the absence of doing so, you'll discount suggestions because it doesn't do the unmentioned).

How much does it cost?

Since the factory model is too expensive, what is your upper limit price range?

Carl

The flow meter is a turbine style flow meter.

Ultrasonic meters will not work because they count particles and the filtering system has 2 micron filters installed.

It connects inline with the fuel supply and return.

The current Cat flow meter cost $ 35,000.00, no kidding!

I can tell your not a salesman.

But, I'm happy you responded.

Thank You

You said to Carl_E, that you could see that he isn't a salesman.

What's your background?

Are you in sales, or some other position?

Is Cat no help?

What is your price point?

I was joking about the salesman thing, because they are so bubbly and don't want to consider facts.

I am in technical services at a Cat dealer in Texas.

I was a technician for 20 years, in management for 10 and technical services most of my life, but with a title for last 10 years.

Started in 1977 and still chugging.

Cat only sells the tool. You can't get them to deviate much off of that.

I think ten grand should be able to get a good set-up.

OK, I see we agree about sales and marketing guys.

If there's a potential for sales of more than a few, I'd consider contacting some flow meter guys.

Flow Meter Manufacturers - IQSDirectory.com‎

Very good info

Thanks Lyn!!

Ultrasonic does not count particles, necessarily. It counts targets, which can be disturbances in the fluid such a microscopic bubbles due to a velocity change.

Take a look at Keyence,

https://www.keyence.com/landing/sensor/lp_tss_fd.jsp?aw=google-kaenFD110124ee&gclid=Cj0KEQjwgJq-BRCFqcLW8_DU9agBEiQAz8Koh--Hh3wUQ-jEYWbDtaxYOXNMZVnIp206kBZ3z2Uzh8oaAqrz8P8HAQ

Just installed one of these on a lube oil line a few months ago, in a nasty paper mill, working fine, just after an elbow is ideal. Check your accuracy with a few volumetric checks,

it all sounds a bit over complicated.

You haven't said what type of meter you want....Ultrasonic?

http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/flowmeters.html

http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/86498714

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm00127.html

Thanks for the links, but that's what I have already found. The chart is nice, but I want find a meter that does the corrections.

Go to IEEE Globalspec (where you already are) and enter "fuel meter" as a product search term. You can probably add some specs as well.

I tried searching there, but didn't find anything.

Why is that Tornado's problem?

"I need a stand alone, supply and return meter "

This sounds like you will need two clamp-on flow meters.

It seems to me you could just have a fuel tank that measured weight and volume that supplied your engine and could hold enough fuel to run the test and still be portable....perhaps having an auxiliary pump that could refill the tank from the existing tank on site...that way all the measurements could be made on the tank itself with whatever smart phone or laptop you have that has a software program that would fit the bill...you could even make it wireless...

I'd use a DIP stick, but then I'm funny that way.

So would Alfred E. Neuman.

What's her name?

Another way you could do it is to look at the fuel purchase records. If you take the total fuel purchased over time and divided it by the time interval, you'd have a figure for the fuel consumption without having to buy and fit something. All it takes is a little imagination.

I think this test he is running is more of an after work re-certification of the engine...not a long term operational test, although your ideas stands well on its own merits and does not cost a dime, other than time analyzing the numbers.

Yes, this meter would be used to verify fuel consumption on computer controlled engines and more importantly, the older style mechanical engines that are rebuilt.

Also, for marine use, to compare fuel consumption from one engine to the next on main propulsion engines.

do you not know the injector control volume per shot?

I haven't calculated it.

Full load HP 8046 @ 1020 RPM

The fuel rate at that HP and RPM is 394.0 GAL/HR + or - 3%