Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

Thank you for your reply! Pipe size for tower 3 is 4 inches. The length is about 20% longer than the elevation. The psi from tower 3 is well above what we need, but it doesn't provide the gpm (maybe 250ish gpm). We need a combined (or aggregate) 1500 gpm and 20 psi. Is it possible that the psi from tower 3 could combine with one of the other towers to push and maintain psi over 20? Obviously I'm not taking friction into consideration, yet.

How hard would it be to increase the pipe size? Have you actually measured the gpm from the current configuration?

I thought that at 50 psi, you need only 400 gpm. Do you also need 1500 gpm at 20 psi?

Also, how long do these flows need to be maintained?

Good point. Were tower 3 to fill at 1500gpm, it could supply the required flowrate indefinitely. GA

Thanks for the GA. That was my point, and even if it fills at < 1500gpm it might meet the time limit (if we knew what that was).

Good points. Tower 3 only has a 4 inch line and only fills refills at 200 gpm.

Yes, the tanks fill automatically at a rate of about 200 gpm.

You mention a higher pressure requirement for the sprinkler system than for the fire suppression system. I don't think you will be able to achieve the 50 psig for the spinkler system at 400 gpm, and then it all depends on the required duration of flow, being mindful of the small reservoir on tower 3, although that might be possible to increase with the least cost?

Consider having an eductor sales representative scope out a suitably sized eductor to arrive at a final flow of either 400 gpm at 50 psig (you will need to up size the delivery pipe to accommodate the maximum flow at required pressure), probably a six inch final pipe size. Any eductor used will have an associated pressure drop on the driving source water, so you must be mindful that you can only have a total of about 12-14 psi drop at the outlet of your system relative to tower 3.

1500 gpm at 20 psig, might even require an 8" pipe to reduce pressure losses at the final outlet. If you pulled all 400 gpm for irrigation from tower 3, your draw time would only be 25 minutes, then you would have to recharge tower 3. If tower 3 is continually recharged and overflows to the lower towers, then you have more options beyond the scope of what I propose.

If your situation is either/or (1500 gpm 20 psi versus 400 gpm 50 psi), you might be able to follow James's eductor suggestion, using tower 3 to provide motive fluid to boost the pressure from the lower towers.

Thank you for the vote in confidence. I am pretty sure a competent eductor sales representative in your area can answer all queries, set up the parameters, help you spec and acquire the item, and maybe even assist with the installation, if they are worthy of beer, or salt.

Beer is proof positive that God loves us all, and desires for our happiness. (Ben Franklin to be lauded for that observation).

I think someone is pulling our leg....Mt Angel elevation 168ft...

https://www.mountangelabbey.org/benedictine-brewery/

https://www.facebook.com/BenedictineBrewery/videos/vb.166088333602065/288143508063213/?type=2&theater

Hi Solar. Why would you say something like that without asking for details? Mount Angel Abbey is at higher elevation than the city of Mount Angel. Look at the elevation at Humpert Lane, then look at the elevation at the top of the hill at the Abbey. Our Hilltop is 485 feet. Humpert Lane is about 250. The original Traeger Grill company rented our property at 300 Humpert Lane. Please don't post stuff like that. We're looking for help.

OK, sorry if this is not the case....but am I correct that the Brewery is already built and operating? ....and if this is so, why are you only now considering fire suppression? I have been reading the history of this Abbey and find this hard to believe...

No, the brewery isn't built. This is a brand new building we are planning and nearly ready to submit for permits, and fire suppression has changed from something simple to something complicated. The size and type of our building (3000 sf, F2 occupancy) doesn't require an automatic sprinkler system, but the city doesn't have hydrants with the proper flow (gpm) or pressure. So we're trying to find a creative, substantive solution.

Well why not install an inground fiberglass tank with a pump setup.....

http://www.firepenny.com/High_Volume_Firefighting_Pumps_s/234.htm

http://www.commtank.com/products/xerxes-fire-protection-water-tanks.php

From the OP: "Is there a way to get 20+ psi without using a pump ..."

Pumps are very expensive.

So is not having a pump, if the facility were not approved for construction without one!

The forum is not in a position to evaluate the economics of pump vs. no pump, as these are commercially-sensitive considerations.

How did the discussions recommended in #9⇓ go, please?

Have you considered a second hand/refurbished pump?
Have you tried local suppliers to give you a long line of credit, maybe a free one (in exchange for beer??)

I suspect, (and I'm trying not to rain on your parade) that you might have to install one, local codes etc.

So as a back up plan/option B, you should consider it. Better to be forearmed than having to go away to regroup and delay the project.

The reason for adding-in a fire suppression system into a new facility is of interest, particularly as the liquids contained within it are non-flammable in themselves. The reason for not currently having fire suppression systems in the existing facility that could be adapted and extended is also of interest, which arrangement is presumably currently satisfactory to both the local authority and the facility's fire insurers, otherwise the facility would not be operating at the moment.

Tower 3 can supply 400gpm for 25min or 1500gpm for 6¹/₃min at the required pressures without a pump, however the 1500gpm requires trained local staff to connect and distribute the water in such an emergency. One wonders if the connection time and distribution time together is enough to arrange the arrival of the local Fire Brigade with their mobile pumping systems to boost towers 1 and 2 into service.

In the end it is a detailed discussion with:

• The facility's Fire Insurance Adviser
• The local Brigade's Fire Prevention Manager
• The local authority's Planning Officer

to determine the correct course of action, rather than a bunch of strangers on the 'net.

The other local fire suppression resources to be considered are:

• The volume of material contained in the facility's own Effluent Treatment Plant
• The brewed materials themselves.

You forgot to account for the continuous 200 gpm recharge supply to tower 3. I say use the tower 3 pressure to drive an eductor or set of eductors to arrive at the solution. It can be done. In fact, it could probably be done with steam even easier, surely they have steam in a brewery?

The information on tank recharge rates arrived in the thread after the above reply had been posted.

yes it did. good catch.

Anything but the beer!

Sorry if I missed it, but how long will you be supplying fire suppression water and what is the total volume of water you plan to supply?

Also, is the water pressure intended to supply positive suction head to a pumper fire truck, or are you directly applying the water to the fire at the supplied pressure?

Are there certain areas where the water will be applied, such as warehouse racking with stacked pallets, fuel, or marijuana dispensary storage? I am sure there are some areas with greater innate hazard and some that pose essentially zero risk.

Other options could include gravity fed low pressure shower heads in high risk areas fed from a roof tank to purchasing 2 or 3 portable shipboard fire pumps or portable forest service fire pumps and train a resident crew to use them.

Finally, take a beer keg. Fill it 2/3 full of water, pressurize to 120psi and put a sprinkler head on it with a fusible link. Place or hang them around the high risk areas and let them be your first line responder.

I live in the area and have visited the abbey in years past. I look forward to trying your brew at Oktoberfest. You know what they say, the monks make brew to support their habits.

Well, those habits must be supported in all decency!

What type of flammable materials are we talking about here? Roof? Walls? Just asking, as water is not the end all for all flammable situations(Think Electrical fires, chemical , some plastics etc.).. Large ships have various suppression systems, some hi pressure water, others, Chemical types. Just curious.

Mostly at a beer brewery, there will be fire danger from stored grain and hops. The only electrical fire danger might be from boiler controls?

Maybe like spontaneous combustion from graineries in the Midwest and elsewhere?. I thought that wasn't from the grain itself, but from the chafe., fine grain dust etc, combusted by friction, causing static electricity build up? Can't remember ..

Alex Trebec says we can't give you the points, since you didn't phrase your answer as a question, but there again this is not your father's Jeopardy show.

Good Answer!!! There are several ways to suppress brewery dust.

Agree--I have seen many building exploded by high pressure hoses and fire axes, to the point where the owners have just said that it wasn't worth the effort to save. Only worries are the spread of fire to nearby buildings.