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Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/26/2017 7:48 AM

It was a nuclear disaster four times worse than Chernobyl in terms of the number of cases of acute radiation sickness, but Moscow’s complicity in covering up its effects on people’s health has remained secret until now.

We knew that in August 1956, fallout from a Soviet nuclear weapons test at Semipalatinsk in Kazakhstan engulfed the Kazakh industrial city of Ust-Kamenogorsk and put more than 600 people in hospital with radiation sickness, but the details have been sketchy.

After seeing a newly uncovered report, New Scientist can now reveal that a scientific expedition from Moscow in the aftermath of the hushed-up disaster uncovered widespread radioactive contamination and radiation sickness across the Kazakh steppes.

The scientists then tracked the consequences as nuclear bomb tests continued — without telling the people affected or the outside world.

Semipalatinsk nuclear test site in Kazakhstan (Alain Nogues/Getty)

The report by scientists from the Institute of Biophysics in Moscow was found in the archive of the Institute of Radiation Medicine and Ecology (IRME) in Semey, Kazakhstan. “For many years, this has been a secret,” says the institute’s director Kazbek Apsalikov, who found the report and passed it on to New Scientist.

More nuclear bomb tests were conducted at Semipalatinsk than anywhere else in the world during the 1950s and early 1960s. Western journalists have reported since the breakup of the Soviet Union on the apparent health effects on villagers downwind of the tests. And some recent studies have estimated radiation doses using proxies such as radioactivity in tooth enamel.

The newly revealed report, which outlines “the results of a radiological study of Semipalatinsk region” and is marked “top secret”, shows for the first time just how much Soviet scientists knew at the time about the human-health disaster and the extent of the cover-up.

It details how Moscow researchers on three expeditions to Ust-Kamenogorsk found widespread and persistent radioactive contamination of soil and food both there and across the towns and villages of eastern Kazakhstan.

In the path of fallout clouds

In mid-September 1956, a month after the fallout cloud hit, dose rates in Ust-Kamenogorsk were still up to 1.6 millirems per hour, a hundred times what the report deems the “permissible rate”, and what is recommended as safe by the International Commission on Radiological Protection.

The following month, the expedition moved on to a number of villages. “Near Znamenka, radioactive substances that affected the people and the environment fell out repeatedly for years,” the report says. The fallout there was “hazardous to health” and “more serious and dangerous than [in] the district of Ust-Kamenogorsk”.

Military medical officers visiting the village after the August test had found three people with acute radiation sickness.

The findings tally with previous reports of the path of the fallout clouds. In 2002, Konstantin Gordeev at the Institute of Biophysics in Moscow published a map showing that on 24 August 1956 a cloud travelled directly over both Znamenka and Ust-Kamenogorsk.

Earlier, a test on 12 August 1953 had sent a cloud across Karaul, which the 1956 expedition reported had consequences that were still “hazardous to health” three years later.

One outcome of the scientific expeditions was the establishment of a special clinic known as a dispensary, under the control of Moscow, tasked with tracking radiation and its health effects. It eventually had a register of some 100,000 people exposed to the tests and their children.

The facility was known for a long time as the Anti-Brucellosis Dispensary No. 4. The name was chosen, says Apsalikov, “in order not to draw attention to its real activity”, which was “classified as top secret until 1991.”

When the Soviet Union collapsed that year, the dispensary became the IRME. But according to its current chief scientist, Boris Gusev, who first worked at Dispensary No. 4 in 1962, many reports in its archives were either taken to Moscow or destroyed before the handover.

One report, he says, recorded that 638 people were “hospitalised with radiation poisoning” in the city after the 1956 test. This was more than four times the 134 radiation cases diagnosed after the Chernobyl accident. Nobody knows how many died.

The newly exposed report of the expeditions in 1956 and 1957 was one of the few to escape the Soviet censors that destroyed or moved other reports from the country. It found “considerable radioactive contamination of soils, vegetable cover and food” in eastern Kazakhstan. Faecal samples taken from people on a collective farm just south of Ust-Kamenogorsk contained high levels of radioactivity, which were no longer detectable between two and five days after they stopped eating local food and switched to imported food.

The expedition called for a halt to eating local grain, and suggested that it was “inexpedient to conduct atomic tests (especially ground explosions) before the full harvest from fields” so the food was sheltered from the fallout.

But this recommendation was evidently not acted on. Gordeev mapped the fallout trajectories of subsequent major tests in August 1957 and August 1962.

The report also downplayed the dangers, saying that various changes in people’s nervous system and blood recorded by doctors, “could not be considered as the changes which arose only due to impact of ionizing radiation”. Instead, it goes on to blame poor sanitation, a “dreary diet” and various diseases such as brucellosis and tuberculosis.

Atmospheric bomb tests at Semipalatinsk stopped in 1963. Although much of the area downwind is now safe to live in, “some areas will never return to nature”, says Apsalikov. “The situation in others is uncertain and potentially dangerous.”

Roman Vakulchuk of the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs welcomes the new openness from Kazakhstan about the issue. The report is the first contemporary record of research into the effects of the tests on local populations, he says. “Until 1956, the [Soviet] government conducted no studies.”

But there is still uncertainty about the extent of continuing contamination and health impacts, he says. “Much of the area presents no danger, but some parts need to be safeguarded indefinitely.”

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#1

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/26/2017 9:54 AM

Gee! a government covering up a disaster what a SHOCK!!!!

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#2

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/26/2017 12:41 PM

"Since the first nuclear test explosion on July 16, 1945, at least eight nations have detonated 2,055 nuclear test explosions at dozens of test sites from Lop Nor in China, to the atolls of the Pacific, to Nevada, to Algeria where France conducted its first nuclear device, to western Australia where the U.K. exploded nuclear weapons, the South Atlantic, to Semipalatinsk in Kazakhstan, across Russia, and elsewhere."

"Most of the test sites are in the lands of indigenous peoples and far from the capitals of the testing governments. A large number of the early tests—528—were detonated in the atmosphere, which spread radioactive materials through the atmosphere. Many underground nuclear blasts have also vented radioactive material into the atmosphere and left radioactive contamination in the soil." ...

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

To date the US leads with 1030 nuclear warheads exploded, with the last 6 in 1992, 25 years ago...Russia is second with 715, and the last 1 was in 1990....France is in 3 rd with 210, and the last in 1996....UK and China are tied at 45 each...North Korea is the only nation testing nuclear weapons at this time with a total of 5, 2 of which were last year...

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#3

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 3:59 AM

Your not on the band wagon of bashing the Russians are you?

Interesting, but it is not as bad as taking away a persons entire country just so that you can test bombs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3630359/Bikini-Atoll-uninhabitable-Radiation-island-exceeds-safety-standards-nearly-60-years-nuclear-tests.html

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1339

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 8:49 AM

So you claim it is better to poison people and not tell them, than to move them out before poisoning the area? Better to die ignorant than to live displaced?

Neither is right, but your stand seems a bit skewed the wrong way. You are supporting governmental cover ups. (???)

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#6
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 9:15 AM

And how in Gods name did you manage to come up with that very skewed bias. What ever you are smoking is not very good. Nothing I typed is between any line

And as for governmental cover ups, well, no one does it as good as the motley crew where you reside. They even outdo the Russians in covering things up.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 9:33 AM

Interesting, but it is not as bad as taking away a persons entire country just so that you can test bombs.

Just reading what you said and interpreting as one must. Those are your words in italics and definitely imply that a governmental cover up of a poisoning of an entire region and inhabitants is better than moving people out of their homes.

Not my beliefs - note the "?" after the statements.

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#8
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 10:25 AM

I seriously believe you need to reconsider what you read because what you read is not what was written, and what was written, was not what you interpreted.

There is nothing in these simple words to interpret.

I am so sorry that I forgot that your motley crew is so honest, so concerned with the world safety and well being, and never, ever, covers up anything. What was I thinking? The land of the Righteous, Defenders of the World, Champions of All Things Right!

I totally forgot the Russians are the only ones who could do such a thing. Shame on them! No other civilised country would ever consider doing such a cover up. It is all 'conspiracies' in the west. Hmm!

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 10:46 AM

Perhaps you need to learn to write better - care to explain what the comment of yours really meant? You are sounding a lot like "Old Tricky Dick Nixon".

“I know you think you believe you understand what you thought I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is exactly what I meant.”

(Oh crap - and I voted for him too....)

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#14
In reply to #3

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 12:14 PM

"Your not on the band wagon of bashing the Russians are you?"

Only you would draw such a conclusion and, predictably, you have, projecting onto me what would have been your motivation for posting this article. Nice try, troll, but no cigar.

*you're

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 12:43 PM

Not at all squire. There is much Russian bashing these days as of they are the scourge of the world, but no one is so quick to look at their own back yards and see the cover ups that take place. You are all making out to be holy than thou and its just not on with me. I have worked with a few and they are good people, clever.

All these governments have plenty covered up, in particular that motley crew over there. You opened a can of worms as if the Russian are the bad guys. They did nothing different to what all others have done. Seems that Russia is the buzz word this year.

Trump: Russia, Hacking: Russia. RT News: Russian spies. Mini subs in Swedish rivers: Russia. Come on now, catch yourselves on. Look in your own back yard before hitting on 'cover ups' from a far.

Just search any site for government cover ups and you may just be surprised but, as it will be cast as 'conspiracy' you wont take heed, but if it happens in Russia, it must be true.

And I totally agree, I did spell 'your', incorrectly, thank you for that. You are, (you're) welcome.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 12:59 PM

"You are all making out to be holy than thou and its just not on with me."

No, you are projecting. Again.

This is a recent article I posted here as a matter of public interest and discussion. That is all. Everything else you have surmised is purely a figment of your imagination. Had you bothered to read and, more to the point, bothered to comprehend, what others have written here (including myself), it would be patently obvious to you it is understood by all here that both sides are guilty of conducting dangerous experiments on unwitting populations. No one is playing holier-than-thou, expect possibly yourself, in bringing it up. Again, you do not disappoint.

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#18
In reply to #14

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 1:16 PM

Forget IQ - he/she is part of the new wave of enlighteneds who bash racism/bias/prejudice while actually practicing the same themselves. If you are from a certain country you must have a certain attitude is their belief. But don't you ever dare to say that about someone else or you will be taken down by them.

On the Russian subject, I quite frankly am getting tired of the whole thing - largely a political game by career politicians who are acting like third graders. Ohhhh - you talked to the Russians - I am going to tell the teacher. Ohhh you have had dealings with the Russians - teacher guess what Donny is doing?

Someone should be talking to them, not ignoring them, and if trying to get a running start before being elected, what is wrong with that? They are a major player in the politics of the world are they not? So they hacked us - I assume we have hacked them as well. So they are nosing into our politics - we do the same don't we?

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#19
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 1:32 PM

The troll can expect no further replies from me as he clearly has nothing of value to contribute. What he has made perfectly clear are his own personal biases. Again. This is a recurring theme, wiping his feet on other people's posts.

In terms of speaking of Russians, this post concerns historical information about Cold War events that have recently come to light and little if anything to do with the current political climate of which I also agree is tiresome in the extreme. Unfortunately, the troll's personal biases and limited reading comprehension lead him to draw knee-jerk conclusions, as we have seen, polluting an otherwise interesting and informative thread.

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#20
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 1:42 PM

Yes - historical indeed - I have a post in there somewhere explaining to the Millennials, and even the X Gens, what the tense atmosphere was like in both countries then, allowing them to justify otherwise improper use of power and abuse of their own people in the effort to win the Arms Race. NEVER want to go back to that.

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#22
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 1:52 PM

It was me who gave you the GA for that. That was indeed the climate of those times. The Doomsday Clock telling us how many minutes - and sometimes seconds - we were away from Nuclear Armageddon at any given moment. People who haven't lived through that era haven't an effing clue what it was like.

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#23
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 2:07 PM

I just worry we sound like the Nazis after WWII when we say that. Basically the argument goes "we did what we did because we were scared."

In hind sight, both sides definitely over reacted, but at the time, one could not see that through the cloud of fear and hate.

Oh yes - thank you. Definitely had to be there to get it.

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#24
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 2:26 PM

Initially, at least, neither side understood to much extent the danger of radioactivity and so greatly underestimated its destructive effects on living tissue. In Rachel Fermi's book Picturing the Bomb we see photos of scientists and engineers handling the bomb's core, as if it were nothing more dangerous than an esky filled with beer. One scientist was even giving a demo, lowering a hemisphere of fissionable material onto another when witnesses described a 'blue flash' when thing suddenly went critical. This in a room filled with people. They had no idea of the danger. Later we see the man's badly burnt hand, a victim of acute radiation poisoning from the demo. In due course they understood these hazards better and so have no excuse to justify experimenting on unwitting human populations. That is pure psychopathy, writ large.

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#25
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 2:28 PM

This discussion is now on-topic, btw.

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#26
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 2:40 PM

Okay. So if we want to appease the whiners who say we are picking on the Russians, you could mention the Hanford site, or the deserts downwind of the Las Vegas Test Site as examples of the same thing occurring in the USA. Yes - that was a cover up.

It was an Arms Race folks - and both sides were afraid they'd be exterminated if they lost. Plain and simple - what had to happen to win, was necessary in the minds of folks at the time. Sort of like cannibalism after a plane crash in the mountains can be justified by the outcome if some survive.

Side note - I worked for the company for 11 years that ran tests after/before the blasts at the Las Vegas Test Site. Guess I'm guilty as well. Now those were some impressive test instruments.

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#30
In reply to #26

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 3:33 PM

Did you witness any tests firsthand?

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#31
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 3:40 PM

No. That was reserved for the "special people". You had to be on the CEO's favorite list to get stationed there. That was very high pay and almost no work. I did get to play with the tools at the main base a few times and hob knob with some of the "special" engineers from there. That was the base that kept the company out of the red ink.

I was on the opposite end of the list and got stationed in NW Pa, where the pay was low and the work averaged 100 hours per week. It was a bit of a problem if one went through the late 60's at a major college - taught you to be a bit rebellious. I got kicked out of a regional meeting once by the Area Manager. Things went down hill from there.

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#32
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 4:17 PM

Is this where most of the tests were performed? Go to Google Maps and then switch to 'Earth View' (or plug into Google Earth directly):

37.049028,-116.034694

I saw this on Google Earth for the first time yesterday. Unbelievable the number of craters.

Also pan to the north of the valley, to the big crater. The fallout from that test, codenamed 'Sedan,' ultimately contaminated more than a million people.

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#33
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 4:41 PM

Looking at the associated pictures - definitely yes.

Recognize that Getty picture of the house? That is right out of the horror movie they showed in the mid 1950's on the effects of a nuclear explosion. I had nightmares with that building in them.

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#34
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 4:49 PM

Google Earth just shows an aerial view. Could you provide a link for the horse?

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#36
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 5:17 PM

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nevada+National+Security+Site,+Nevada/@37

I am terrible at links.If this doesn't work, follow your co-ords on map, go to Earth, spot site in upper left called Nevada National Security Site - see 89 photos listed as available to view. There are multiple shots of it, but the one from Getty is right out of the movie.

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#37
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 5:46 PM

I wrote 'horse'. I meant 'house'. Yes, I've seen that image before. Thanks.

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#69
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 9:21 PM

During one of the underground tests, Pascal-B, a 900-kilogram (2,000 lb) steel plate cap was blasted off the top of a test shaft at a speed of more than 66 km/s (41 mi/s; 240,000 km/h; 150,000 mph).

Before the test, experiment designer Dr. Robert R. Brownlee had estimated that the nuclear explosion, combined with the specific design of the shaft, would accelerate the plate to approximately six times Earth's escape velocity. The plate was never found, but Brownlee believed that the plate did not leave the atmosphere, as it may even have been vaporised by compression heating of the atmosphere due to its high speed. However, if it did not completely vaporise, what remains of the cap is in solar orbit. If so, it predates Sputnik as being the first man-made object in (any kind of) orbit.

The calculated velocity was sufficiently interesting that the crew trained a high-speed camera on the plate, which unfortunately only appeared in one frame, but this nevertheless gave a very high lower bound for its speed. After the event, Brownlee described the best estimate of the cover's speed from the photographic evidence as "going like a bat out of hell."

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#43
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 12:51 AM

Yes, but now pan 23 miles to the west of your original coordinates, and you will see this:

Clearly a crater about 30 miles across, presumably from a large asteroid, and presumably formed millions of years ago.

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#44
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 1:38 AM

Interesting, but I can't find any reference to that being an impact crater. That area, however, is riddled with ancient volcanic cinder cones and calderas, some heavily weathered. I suspect this feature (approx centre: 37.087373, -116.465043) may be the latter. Do you have more information on this feature?

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#48
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 11:46 AM

No, I don't. The feature just popped out to me as I was zooming away from your original location to get a better idea of its position with resect to places I've been to...

As I zoom out further, it looks like this feature disrupts the general terrain of the region, and the hills and valleys to the East and ESE actually look like ripples centered on the crater, hinting that, assuming it was caused by an asteroid, that asteroid came in from the W to WNW.

If you look at a similar feature, of similar size, at the eastern edge of this image, It appears much more local in its effect on its surroundings, either indicating volcanic origin or a much more nearly vertical impact.

Thanks for the link to the list of Impact craters. I hadn't seen that list. I'll have to explore some of those.

My real point in posting the image, and the reason I didn't mark it OT, is that whatever caused this feature was immensely more powerful than all the bombs exploded nearby. We definitely need to be vigilant regarding possible impacting objects, as well as possible major volcanic events, such as Yellowstone.

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#52
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 1:08 PM

It does indeed have the appearance of an impact crater, but that entire area has been heavily researched by geologists, not to mention the fact that the feature itself is highly visible from the air, and so I would be very surprised that, were this an actual impact crater, it had been overlooked all this time? Also note that not far from there is an area that is considered by some to be the remnant of a very ancient impact crater, now heavily obscured by natural processes and not nearly so obvious, the so-called Alamo bolide impact. It is mentioned in that list but the coordinates are not shown. Hancock Summit is near the edge of that area, however, and its coordinates are: 37.431643, -115.381979. The site scarcely looks like an impact crater, but the geology suggests otherwise: impact breccia, shocked quartz, elevated iridium levels, and spherical lapilli - all indicators of a bolide impact.

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#80
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

04/01/2017 11:15 PM

If you check google earth for the trinity site you will see a circle around the site. Then if you back off a bit you will see to the nortwest a much larger circle. I often wonder what was the purpose. If your interested in some of the Los Alamos reports of that time you can find them on sciencemadness.org, some detailed reports on fallout including fallout from the first test that contaminated Chupadera mesa with plutonium, where cattle are grazing to this day. Some very interesting reads.

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#81
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

04/01/2017 11:38 PM

Thanks for the head's-up!

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#83
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

04/02/2017 12:37 AM

I did a lot of research on the subject (fallout/nuclear tests) years ago but the computer I was using at the time died from a nasty virus. Lost a lot of valuable information. So I have to go by whats left of my memory. As I recall if you can find Area 51 in Nevada go west just a bit and zoom you will see a large number of test sites. I was shocked at the number. Also, looking at Los Alamos now, it has changed quite a bit from ten years ago. Some of the more obvious accident sites have been cleaned up or covered up. There are still some interesting features if you look closely. On the southern boundry there is a Mesa with about a dozen spots isolated on a road that follows the edge, as if something is buried in those spots, like I said, still some very interesting features.

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#84
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

04/02/2017 12:57 AM

Lord knows what all occurred there, most of it top secret. Speaking of Area 51, right next to it and extending into Area 51 is what appears to be geological evidence of an ancient bolide impact, the so-called Alamo Impact. I mentioned it earlier in this thread. Unfortunately, geologists cannot enter Area 51 to survey its possible extent. It is not obviously a crater from the air. Natural processes have eroded the area so much that it no longer looks like a crater, but the geology says otherwise. That part of Nevada also had a lot of volcanic activity at one time and so some of the craters are actually ancient calderas. The craters in Yucca Flats have nuclear origins however. It's amazing how many atmospheric tests they performed.

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#82
In reply to #80

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

04/02/2017 12:14 AM

Welcome to CR4!

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#39
In reply to #19

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 8:20 PM

Why did you pick Soviet? Why not a USA, UK, German, NZ, Au cover up? Yep I am sick of hearing daily from the US how bad Russia is, biased in every way against all the propaganda that emits from that side.

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 8:48 PM

Oh, you poor little dear! Why I believe that's the saddest thing I've ever heard.

1. Why? Because this just happened to take place in the former Soviet Union and was recently brought to light. It has historical interest to readers who have an interest in history; Cold War history in particular.

2. I don't give one single gnat's arse what you're sick of hearing daily. That's your problem, mate. Deal with it.

3. If you find this subject so distasteful, then why is your sorry whinging candy arse on this thread at all? Don't like the heat, GTF out of the kitchen. Don't like the topic, don't read it. It's literally that easy, even for someone of your dubious calibre. Yes, even you.

Happy now? Are we all done here, troll?

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#46
In reply to #39

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 10:48 AM

You need to use that "IQ" and do some serious research on the Cold War era to understand this mutual distrust. Those of us over 60 in the USA and those in Russia, had almost 50 years of government programming (yes - it was mind programming on both sides) jammed into our heads about how the other side was planning to exterminate us someday. Even our liberal entertainment industry, usually the least supportive of the government, enjoyed playing the US against Russia in spy thrillers and such. Then you have the famous threat at the UN that someday they would bury our grandchildren, which certainly aided the US government in stirring us against Russia. (yes it was a mistake on Nikita's part - he lost his job over it, but it just cemented the fear factor) While we understand this was out of fear of the other side, it is very difficult for such mistrusts and animosities to dissolve. That doesn't happen probably until the Cold War generation is all dead. Remember as late as 1984 we couldn't even get together for the Olympics, because of such feelings.

So quit complaining and do some study to try to understand why such bashing is still occurring.

Both sides had cover ups - both sides harmed their populace to achieve a victory in the Arms Race. I don't think any of the other countries could compare to what the 2 prime players in the Cold War did. Would not be so interesting, would it?

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#47
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 11:38 AM

Hold up my friend, do you think I was not around when that brain washing was going on. 60 Years on and still those FW cant stop trying to war with Russia.

It was a very bad idea to post that rubbish as a 'Cover Up' heading. Look closer at the local back yards. They are all just as bad as one another. The Russians are just such a hot topic for the USA these days.

And not everyone needs, nor are compelled to agree, with the USA. Life happens and not all agree with a supposed 'historical fact' excuse.

And no complaint at all, making it straight that the USA is definately no better than anyone else for covering up, so don't knock others until you can take the knock yourselves.

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#49
In reply to #47

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 12:01 PM

No arguments with most of that, except that was a cover up, so posting that way is okay as long as we mention that cover ups reigned in both camps at the time. This has also come out in this long running discussion. See my post concerning what the US did to desert area dwellers downwind from the Las Vegas Test Site. Forty to seventy years later it is just being realized what happened there. Watch for some interesting law suits in the future from residents of Utah and Nevada, and maybe New Mexico.

The 60 years, as you mention, is the problem - how do you just forget all that mind washing? Both countries have several generations of residents that are programmed to distrust the other country.

The "Russians are hot topics for the USA" is largely a political game by two parties that are becoming as distrustful of each other as the US and Russia were/are (???) The side that lost the election know the majority of voters who voted against their candidate are of the Cold War era age. They are using this innate fear and distrust in this age group in a childs game to make the other party look bad. Don't read too much into our political rhetoric when the actual war is between our parties, not with the Russians. I haven't seen any indication that Trump has any ill feelings against the Russians. Actually it seems to be quite the opposite. He has cabinet members who have business dealings with the Russians and they certainly don't want to sour the feelings between the countries.

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#53
In reply to #49

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 1:17 PM

What IQ seems to be suggesting is that we censor our posts for his personal comfort. In other words, take it upon ourselves to avoid certain topics because he is personally unable to avoid reading them. What he has been telling us all along is that he lacks self-control to the extent that he cannot take steps to ensure his own personal comfort, and so demands others do that for him. An adult in nappies.

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#56
In reply to #53

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 1:31 PM

I know how you meant that, but actually that is possible - your description sounds a lot like a gambling addiction. Weirder mental issues have been recorded.

I know I won't criticize a mental flaw as I have several weird afflictions I can barely control. Worst one - ever hear of misophonia? That's a tough one to deal with in an office setting.

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#59
In reply to #56

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 2:15 PM

How do you deal with it in an office setting? Noise-cancelling headphones?

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#62
In reply to #59

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 3:00 PM

Very good ear plugs with a spot of grease so they seat real well in the ear canal - they have to tap me on the shoulder to get my attention. I can hear some distractions, but not many, and none of the real triggers. Fortunately I can stand my own body noises, that become apparent when you are sealed off from the real world. Ever been in an anechoic chamber? I've been in one at PSU - that is very strange indeed. This is not quite that effect. An anechoic chamber can drive you crazy after a while.

Let me add that age doesn't help these maladies. The older I get, the worse it gets. I avoid movie theaters, large meetings, and so on these days. Fortunately, for the office problem, retirement is next year.

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#64
In reply to #62

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 3:04 PM

I have severe tinnitus, and always have, from ear infections as a child. I cannot recall a time in my life where I have ever 'heard' silence. The tinnitus is so loud I can hear it over the sound of a jet engine.

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#65
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 4:05 PM

An anechoic chamber would drive you crazy in minutes then.

My Wife has had that since she was exposed to ball lightening inside a room as a young woman. Her family was there, but I was lucky enough to be elsewhere. They tell me the dang stuff came right through the building and made a huge clap as it passed.

I know what you went through. I had infections in both ears as a child, enough they saw me at the hospital three times. They did a drainage under anesthetics. I still can't stand the smell of ether - horrible anesthetic that gave you nightmares you couldn't awaken from. Never got the tinnitus though - wonder why?

They also were very crazy about Penicillin in those days. My Aunt, an RN, who had several very good friends who were MD's, stuck me with a needle full of that every time my nose started to run. It didn't really help that much. And they wonder why we have drug resistant microbes these days.

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#71
In reply to #65

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/29/2017 12:25 AM

I've had tinnitus for many years, but I don't recall whether I did at the time I experienced an anechoic chamber, around 30 years ago. I enjoyed that experience, but it was only for a few minutes. I can imagine it might give some people a feeling vaguely like claustrophobia. My tinnitus is commonly a constant high pitch that reminds me of the sound of TV flyback transformers, but a little lower in pitch. Fortunately, most of the time I don't notice it, but whenever I stop to pay attention, it's there.

I had ether anesthetic a couple of times in the late '40s, once for a dental procedure, and once when I had my tonsils removed. I had no nightmares, and actually found it a rather pleasant odor the last time I got a whiff off it.

Agreed on the drug resistant microbes!

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#73
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/29/2017 8:35 AM

I had nightmares the first 2 times I had ether. I remembered them well after awakening from it. It was so bad, on the third time I fought the ether mask with all I had, at 7 years of age. I remember some very frustrated nurses and anesthesiologist. Strangely, that time - no nightmares.

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#66
In reply to #53

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 5:22 PM

Come on now Andrew, when it all finally crumbles to the ground and the US is exposed for cover ups, are you hoping that your state becomes part of South Canada or North Mexico?

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 6:05 PM

My state? What state might that be?

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#50
In reply to #47

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 12:10 PM

"Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl" is the article's title, word-for-word. Did you follow the link at the bottom of the post. If you've an issue with the title, contact the author.

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#51
In reply to #47

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 12:20 PM

How's about Stalin's infamous Holodomor, a genocidal pogrom in which he created an artificial famine in the Ukraine designed to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule? An estimated 7,000,000 persons perished there from forced starvation, the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands. That wasn't a coverup. Any objections there?

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#85
In reply to #47

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

04/07/2017 2:41 AM

"when that brain washing was going on." - Whew; I'm glad that was past tense. I would hate to think any of that was going on now.

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#75
In reply to #18

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/31/2017 2:31 PM

Yes, and in the meantime, the Freedom Caucus is accusing POTUS of acting like a playground bully, when he is merely attempting to coach them back onto the team, like any good coach would. We only get so many players. They all need to count so we can move the ball forward.

As to the Russia thing, Putin already said there is no there, there, and I believe him.

I think we should make every effort to have better friendly relationships with all nations, even if there are fundamental difference in philosophy. Dialogue can lead to detente' but without dialogue there is nothing to stop anarchy from spreading throughout the entire world, much to the detriment of mankind.

Peace through strength, the rule of law. Period. Let the intelligence committees sort this out, rather than airing it out over and over in the circus media.

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#76
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/31/2017 3:23 PM

Well todays news seems to indicate they did do some meddling. What is not being pointed out is this has occurred since 1946, albeit in other forms than hacking or internet postings, and we do the same thing to them. And so do the Brits, the Germans, the Japanese, the..... any country that has a reason to want us to sway toward their goals.

Democrats are trying to play on the ingrained fear of the Russians from the Cold War days, since most Trumpy supporters are that age. It isn't working on me, for one.

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#77
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/31/2017 3:30 PM

I have news for them. Their days of receiving God's sunshine are nearly over. Where most of these leakers, hackers, and crooks are headed, they will have to pipeline sunshine to them so they can see to eat crackers. I hate crackers, and I R 1.

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#78
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

04/01/2017 5:33 AM

You know they are going there for sure dude. Are you covering something up we should know.

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#79
In reply to #77

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

04/01/2017 12:46 PM

Please, let's keep current politics off this thread? Thanks.

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#5

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 9:02 AM

why should they cover up? Afterall, they're the government.

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#9

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 10:26 AM

Maybe it's not a cover up.

At the time the tests were conducted, the Soviet Union,, was the Soviet Union.

The Russians, thought is was always going to be the Soviet Union, they never thought it was going to collapse.

The test and its effects may have been all part of the test.

Now it's easy for somebody, whomever is in charge over there ( if they really are in charge, or think they are ) can point a finger at someone ( who of course isin't available to answer for it ) and say " Da,

Had the Soviet Union continued, this posting, written on this post, would have never occurred.

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#12
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 11:02 AM

The test and its effects may have been all part of the test.

Got a point there. We have pictures of US soldiers with dark goggles sitting downwind of some tests. Effects and tolerances were still being "researched" at this time, and with all the fear floating around, peoples lives, especially servicemen in the western side of the world, were considered expendable, if it served to give us an edge.

Fortunately / unfortunately (???) the worst fears were found to be true - human tolerances weren't very high. I say fortunate, because that fact may well have prevented the nuclear war. Neither side could afford to lose that much.

It is actually a bit surprising that we moved the residents of Bikini Atoll out before the bomb tests. Talk about a captive test group.

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#15
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 12:34 PM

"Maybe it's not a cover up."

Not a cover-up in terms of hiding it from the West, but it was certainly a cover-up in terms of the Soviet government's hiding the true purpose of that 'dispensary' from the victims and continuing the tests in spite of warnings to protect the food supply. These people were their guinea pigs. Similarly for U.S. tests conducted with soldiers and civilians nearby and downwind.

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#41
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 10:52 PM

" Not a cover up" .

should be no surprise.

These people were their guinea pigs.

Remember the movie with Jude law.

Enemy at the gates.

There is a scene where Vasily Zaytsev is carrying a clip of bullets.

Retreating soldiers are machine gunned by their own officers.

Feeding people into the meat grinder not only is historical but is common place in Russia.

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#42
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 11:21 PM

I've yet to see that film, but it comes as no surprise. Other accounts I've read portray pretty much the same attitude toward human life, if not more so. Considering all the millions who died under Stalin, what's a 'mere' hundred thousand cases of radiation poisoning? Ruthless bastards.

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#11

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 10:51 AM

In the mid-90s a Russian general spoke at the Penn State campus where I worked. I assume he was on a speaking tour of sorts. If memory serves, he wasn't hewing to the party line about the extent of the disaster. He presented the library with a book he'd written about his role in the aftermath. Unfortunately, the book was, not surprisingly, written in Russian. I sent it to the main campus for cataloging, where as far as I know it's still languishing in someone's backlog. Wish I'd remembered enough Russian to make some sense of it.

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#13

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 11:53 AM

Got to add one more thing - if you didn't live through that era, you have no idea how desperate each side of the Cold War was. The extreme fear that haunted you every time you woke up. I am sure the Russians were as scared as we were.

It is easy to see that it was reprehensible what we did for testing, then, but very understandable if you ever felt that gnawing fear that pervaded every moment of your life. We were shown short films of the probable effects of a nuclear war, with buildings being flattened and immediately immolated - humans and animals suddenly being stripped to just skeletal remains, then told in school to " get under your desks for protection" when the air raid siren sounded. Yeah - be sure to kiss you a** goodbye while down there.

Then the Cuban Missile Crisis - it is a wonder there are any sane humans left from that era. So close to extinction - so close.

Yes it was craziness - but the fear said the other side was getting ahead - the other side was coming.... so all was considered fair game then. So easy now to condemn if you weren't there. And all that propaganda, every day. Yes propaganda on both scared stiff sides was pervasive. After the proper disparaging of the Nazis actions in WWII, both sides fell right into the same trap. Government spread fear drives people to do things they later know were despicable. I don't recall anyone here rallying to preserve the rights of the displaced people of Bikini Atoll. You would have been considered a traitor to even consider such a thing. Nationalism backed by pervasive fear - very powerful - very powerful.

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#21

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 1:44 PM

.. interesting piece. A not so nice remember of what we've become. It's a good thing we've not gone beyond "testing".. and pretty remarkable considering how this bunch of like minded individuals supposedly get along.

The back door politics on CR4 alone have kept the "football" in hand. Lyn or no Lyn..

Get along or get along

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#29
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 3:21 PM

Like minded individuals, huh? Are we characterizing engineers as having a similar thought train? Not so good an idea in 2017. Maybe in the 1960's you could come close to that, that was until I showed up in the EE classroom full of aspiring engineers with crew cuts and dress shirts, with my hair down to my shoulder blades, a 10 inch long beard, and my Dad's old army jacket with peace signs. Yeah - we had some big difference in the thought train even then.

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#38
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 6:54 PM

Ok.. so "like minded individuals" is a bit of a stretch.. but I hope all of us have a shared passion for human rights and a shred of compassion for the rest.

Long hair in the 60's?. It's unfortunate that that represented a person for the crew cut masses to warn their children about when it was the long hairs who were wise to "the man" and trying actively to warn the children about the crew cut masses. (Silent m)

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#45
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 9:31 AM

But we can get along if we drop the politics and center on our engineering passion. My buddies that I hung out with were three engineering students from the Philadelphia area and they all were the crew cut/dress shirt type. Okay, so, the students into the SDS gave me a weird eye when they saw me with these guys, (one was my neighbor across the hallway - he really busted my chops for that) but I really wasn't that into what they were into. Didn't matter - me and my buddies never talked politics. Instead we formed an informal model rocketry club and had great times while in school. This is the "like minded" you are referring to.

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#27

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 3:02 PM

The worst fallout contaminations in the Soviet Union were due to waste storage tank explosions. Several locations had Hanford style single wall waste storage tanks that weren't quite as well monitored as those at Hanford and some blew up due to hydrogen gas accumulation and other causes. The first clues were streaks of dead zones following wind patterns and then some publicly released publications from Soviet scientists talking about the effects of radiation levels of several thousand rems per hour on beechwood forest canopies, but carefully avoiding the issue of the source of the radiation. The final confirmation came from a foreign traveler who reached a point on a road where there was a blockage. His vehicle was totally taped shut and he was directed to drive the next few miles without stopping. At the next road checkpoint, the car was stopped, washed and the tape removed. The contamination was later confirmed to be effluent from plutonium refining. There was speculation that the traveler may have been advised that the trip was worth making and that good observation skills would be advisable.

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#28

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 3:09 PM

At one point I recall a request by a US government agency for samples of snake antivenin following Chernobyl . It turns out the Soviet Union was one of the worlds largest suppliers of snake venom used for production of antivenin and if you obtained antivenin, it identified the source location of the venom. Radiation contamination turned up and gave a fair picture of the radiological distribution in the Soviet Union.

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#35

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/27/2017 5:13 PM

Lake Karachay - only this wasn't an accident. It was intentionally used as a dump.

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#54

Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 1:22 PM

Okay - I thought of something else related to this. This testing area was the source of the elevated radiation in our milk in the northern states during the 1950's and 60's. It was strontium 90 I believe. Based on half life, a 1/4 of that is still around. Haven't heard of that lately and haven't seen cancer rates attributed to that. Anyone know anything about this?

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#55
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 1:27 PM

This area? Which area, specifically?

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#57
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 1:35 PM

The Soviet one in your original post was blamed for the higher levels. Of course it could have been our own doing. Another cover up we missed?

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#58
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 1:47 PM

Given the number of atmospheric tests by all sides (ie, the Nuclear Club), it would be hard to say that this area was specifically responsible. Far more likely, in the case of American contamination, I would blame the Sedan test.

The Sedan nuclear test (6 July, 1962) contaminated a lot of Americans. Estimates range from 1 million to 13 million Americans affected. It caused more radioactive fallout contamination than any other nuclear explosion conducted in the United States. (click on image to enlarge)

Strontium-90 was one of the fallout components. Its half-life is 28.8 years. As it has been ~55 years since that test, Sr-90 levels today from that test are around 27% of their original levels.

What makes Sr-90 particularly nasty is that it chemically resembles calcium and so is absorbed into the bones where it can cause bone cancer, cancer of nearby tissues, and leukemia.

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#60
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 2:51 PM

Which is why the radioactivity was noted in milk, although it would have been everywhere - milk was being pushed to grow strong bones. Of course I was a bit more sensitive to such reports as my Mother worked at a dairy. We had dairy products every meal / every day.

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#61
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 2:55 PM

Where were you living at the time?

Completely off-topic here. Concerning your sig. "I'm irrational" ?

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#63
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 3:02 PM

South central Pa.

I'm irrational. Only the second time someone has tried to decipher that.

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#68
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 8:02 PM

According to the map it doesn't like any part of PA was exposed above the minimum shown - from that test at least (and if the map is accurate).

This map is little more complete: Downwind exposure produced by Nevada Test Site.

This map strongly suggests that there are some state-specific differences in reporting.

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#70
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/28/2017 9:33 PM

This one is more detailed. (click on image to zoom)

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#72
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/29/2017 8:24 AM

Click on Pennsylvania and you can see the spline of the Appalachians that comes right up through the middle of the state and bends towards the eastern border. Red on one side and blue on the other. Having lived on both sides, I know this is the typical weather flow. South central to south eastern Pa is in a flow from the Gulf area. Western and northern tier Pa gets it more from the west and central Canada. I grew up in blue - I am safe.

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#74
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Re: Soviet Cover-up of Nuclear Fallout Worse than Chernobyl

03/29/2017 11:37 AM

How much of that data is from actual measurements? I find it difficult to believe there was a sampling taken in every county of the US back then.

As you have indicated, there definitely appear to be differences between adjacent states and counties that are more likely differences in data interpretation than in actual data.

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