Electrocuting Borers in an Ash Tree

Go for it! I'd like to know the results.

I'd start with two nails driven deep into the tree at the bottom and top - on either sides of the borers. I'd apply 12V from my outdoor lights transformer first. Leave it on for several hours (if it doesn't short out your transformer)

If that doesn't work, I'd try 120VAC.

If that doesn't work, I'd try the output of your car's spark coil.

(and of course, when I say I'd try it, I mean I'd pay good money to watch you do it.)

I don't think that would be too advisable! I would like an opinion on this, but would the tree assume the function of a Faraday cage? I may be way off in my thinking here but I have never really played with one before so the animal is charged and so is the tree therefore no voltage difference only the fact that the tree was in the ground giving a great earth stops this experiment in its tracks thus trippin the diff! but what would happen if it was in a pot that stood on a rubber mat?

Yep, point taken! Going to look up things on the Faraday cage! I am obviously out of touch with modern technologies!

An isoltion transformer knows no ground, ac or dc. You might try your dept. of agriculture or extension service. They may have some wasps that will find the buggers, or a fungus that would rot them harmlessly. dc would probably upset the electrolyte distribution maybe killing the tree, and microwaves would definetely bliw the phylum. Injecting very hravy sucrose syrup could do the job, but I thought the ash borers started in the small upper branches before they resorted to the trunk?

RichH

Not to sure about the Faraday effect but as wood is supposed to be an insulator then wont you get no results?

My understanding of trees is that all the fluids travel up the outermost layers of the tree just under the bark so if the little buggers are deep into the wood past the moisture line then it may have no affect at all.

Then again I could be completely wrong and just look completely stupid at this point

I think thats the basis of a Faraday cage, all the current passes to the outer edge of the conductor, the current inside cancels the current outside leaving a current free zone so to speak!

Don't worry, I'm sure I put my foot in it more ofter than not!

You know that was very stupid of me.

I know the principle that the Faraday cage works on and completely stuffed it with my moisture theory.

Pardon me whilst i pull my size 11 out of my mouf.......shhhhllloooooop!!!

Ah much better now. Anyone up for a kick at me arse?

Wooooe Woooe Woe down jb! I've just read rainbow book one of the Faraday cage, Don't jump the gun and think I know what I'm talking about, I personally prefer the moisture theory! Then again, A good kick up the arse never hurt anyone!

Good point about the Faraday cage. It may not work. I prodded with 24v for a bit, just for fun, but I didn't see anything squirming out. I think I would need to leave it there a while, like was mentioned earlier. I will try it later.

I also wondered if I could vibrate the tree and make their lives miserable? If only they made some sort of a compact device that produced vibration ;-) I wonder what my neighbors would think if I had a bunch of vibrators taped to my tree?

Maybe ultrasonic noise would work?

Trees....... vibrators.......Hmmmm

They might think your F'n nuts!

Ok sorry I had to say it.

Now you're on the right track. Get all the 'youff' from the neighbourhood to line up their hotrods with 11MW sound sytems round the tree and see if you can figure out whose music they like the most/least? If word spreads far enough maybe I won't be able to hear them round our neighbourhood any more!

What about getting them drunk?

What a fleepin' great idea! I would run a lightbulb from the mains, and use the tree as the ground side. Little copper nails....hmmmm...

Wood is an insulator to a degree but when it is full of resin and sap if you put enough power through it, it will conduct. Lightning is my example! Could you fly a kite with a key attached to it and tie the end to the top of the tree and wait for a storm! If that doesn't work, I don't know what

to suggest next!

Hey Guys, You could kill the tree, Lightning and power lines do..

Lightning currents pass just below the bark and cauterize the sap lines, The tree starves to death. Power lines often kill the roots.

You would have to pass enough current to create an uncomfortable voltage gradient across there bodies. If they are vertical, the current will pass from head to tail (or ash backward). If they are horizontal then the problem is more complex. If they are on a slant, you better get out your trig. tables.

I'm not putting my name on this one......

lightning can make the trunk explode by causing rapid expansion of the fluids in the wood. Thats guaranteed to kill the borers...

Copper nails are not very good for a tree. What about a magnatron out of an old micro wave oven. Strap it on to the side of the tree where there is a borer hole and start experimenting with the defrost range and work up from there.

Depending on the size and conductivity of the borer it should work. The big witchetty grubs would go medium rare with about a minute on low power. If you cook them fast they explode. (See Steam Tables) The nasty little insect type borers may be more problematic.

www.qm.qld.gov.au/inquiry/factsheets/Wood_Moths_20070605.pdf

Mornin Mr. Casey Jones:

The thought of electrocuting bugs & the like is novel and fun to think about but would inevitably have a negative effect on the tree. Consider if you will the feelings of the tree! If the borers happen to be the bumble looking bees, I think you will find the bore a perfect 3/8" hole. Go to your local hardware store and purchase a length of 3/8 inch dowel; cut a short length and while your borer is at home simply lock him in! END OF HIS STORY!!

So long as the circuits are fused properly I would love to learn if this works. Pole barn nails would work nicely as an electrode and they aren't copper.

I really doubt you could put enough voltage across the tree lumber to cause an explosion or fire. But I don't want to hear about step-up transformers. At that point I'm running away!

On the other hand I've found that a shot of WD-40 puts paid to the wood boring bumble bees.

But there are probably too many insects in your ash tree to do this.

What does the local agrochemical place suggest?

I'm afraid I regard ash trees as weeds, but if they are the sacrificial anode to my roof timbers now I'm suddenly interested!

A few years back I worked in a concrete building that managed to get an infestation of termites in a row of built in wood wall cabinets. The building owner Hired an exterminator to come in to eradicate them. He had a device that applied high voltage to a flat plate on the end of an insulated wand. The plate was on one side of a section of the cabinet. A ground plate was on the other side. He could vary the voltage to the plate. The little bugs were a better conductor than the dry wood. In use there was a constant hum from the control box. But when he found termites, there began a crackling sound as the current would jump from plate to plate through the termites. I don't know the voltage or amps, but if you contact an exterminator, you might get some additional ideas. Good luck.

A progress report...

There were fresh "grub turds" (I am unsure of the scientific nomenclature) in the area where I was prodding with 24v yesterday, so it doesn't appear that I slowed them down. I upped the ante today with 110 house current. I ran current between two nails approx 7" apart. After about ten minutes with no visible activity, I unhooked it. I was getting 50v with my multimeter from the middle of the nails to the wire, so there should have been plenty of current.

Thanks for the great ideas. Loud music, alcohol, and vibrators work together to produce a fine experiment regardless of the outcome.

The holes are D shaped, btw. I applied Bayer systemic insecticide, but it might be too late.

CJ

'D' shaped?? 3/8"?? These do sound like the holes in our roof poles. They were supposed to have been dealt a death-dealing-blow by a specialist when we bought the house. Never been too sure myself but I've never heard them, not like the wasps.

Not to get all practical, but Bayer sells a systemic borer-icide. Just pour it around the trunk.

Here's a thought, use a multimeter to measure the resistance across the width of the tree, if its open or reads say above 1meg move on to another idea.

OK. Let's consider the construction of a tree before you go off half cocked.

First, the only part of a tree that's really alive is the outer layer of bark. The rest of the tree, the wooden center was alive (made up of each years layer of outer bark) but now it's dead and acts as support structure, and unfortunately food for your borers. Also, this is why if you strip the outer ring of bark from a tree, you kill it.

If you electrocute the tree the current is going to pass through the outer bark and not reach the borers, which are inside the dry heart of the tree. The flow of electricity through the outer bark could damage its delicite structure - again, you'll get a dead tree.

There are, however, a large family of piratical wasps that prey on wood borers. These wasps are big, with long thin tails (like 5" long). They are completely harmless and do not have stingers. But they do have one thing you want. That 5" tail is an ovapositer that they stick inside of borer's holes. That long tail deposits a an egg that becomes a ravenous larvae that just loves tree boring insects.

I'm not sure if anyone sells these wasps for the irradication of boring insects, but you may want to check.

One other thing - if you really like the tree, you might try having it tented and fumigated. You may have to cut away this years growth. However, methyl bromide and other pesticides they use for termites can pass through a six by six in less than 30 minutes.

That will get the borers!

And a good part of any nearby civilisation by the sound of it!

That's why you tent it. It's the same way they tent houses for termites.

Well there are some things to be thankful for living here! I'd not considered tenting houses in the fight against unwanted insects!

But I've never understood why, in some parts of the world, building methods seem to be chosen that are so inappropriate for the area. Why for instance do people who live in the paths of hurricanes build what I would describe as wooden shacks, when those who don't build houses of brick and concrete??

I don't know if this will work but no harm in trying this one:

Take a metal (steel maybe) rod about an inch in diameter. Wind a coil around (experiment with the number of turns) and connect it to a power amplifier, a 100W say. Then connect a frequency generator to the power amplifier input.

Put the rod against the tree and switch on the power amp and the generator. The rod should vibrate almost imperceptibly. Having it against the tree will impart the vibrations through the wood and give them a headache. Hopefully, they'll come out and run for it.

You may have to experiment with the frequency also. I don't have any formulas for calculating the number of turns you'll need (impedance should match the amp output).

I'd be interested to hear (pun intended) what comes of this.

If your number of turns doesn't give you a sensible impedence (4 or 8Ohm?) I think your amp will soon register its displeasure. Mine did.

Exactly.

I've got formulas in my library for air-core coils and ferrite-core coils. You probably need different formulas for steel.

I've seen ultrasonic cleaners using this technology so it's not new. It's just a different application (which, honestly, I have no way of knowing if it will work. I just think it's worth a try).

Well guy, it's your tree, and at least now I think you know more about the internal structure of trees in general. If you think passing current or induced electrical flux through those tender tissues are going to help, go for it.

Just one request, if you do go through with this, please let us know the results! You may have found the answer to save a lot of trees. On the other hand,...

Good luck!

I know i'm getting in on this late.

The borers don't actually "bore" into the wood, but travel around the tree under the bark, eating the cambium. Once this layer is destroyed, the tree dies. It may take too long for a systemic to work, once the infestation is manifested. Usually the tree is dead within 2 years once it is infested. If you kill the tree with electricity, it won't matter because the tree is going to die anyway from the borers (nasty little buggers).

I would use household current, one nail near top, metal stake in the earth, and rock-n-roll. There is no faraday effect, as the borers are not insolated from the tree, and are actually part of the tree. Another thing to consider too, is that the bugs could be above your top electrode.

Fact is, to do nothing, you will need a chain saw. Since the tree is only 5 years, I would replace it with a disease resistant species like black walnut, or catalpa if you need a fast growing tree for shade. Catalpas have a wonderful large leaf that makes a great shade, and they live as long as an ash,

Good luck.

In south Florida we have had an outbreak of Citrus Canker that was affecting citrus trees. The Florida dept of Agriculture came up with an arbitrary figure of 1900 feet as the distance that needed to separate a healthy tree from an infested tree. In a few months the department managed to find hundreds of "experts" to inspect the thousands of citrus trees across the southern tip of Florida. Not just public locations, everybody's back yards were inspected. If there was an infected tree within 1900 feet of your tree, it was cut down. If your tree was strong enough to resist the canker, it was cut and turned into mulch and disposed of. No reason to find out what made it resist the disease. So... be careful about what you tell the agriculture dept. If you want to try to save your tree, you need to learn as much as you can, and do it yourself. good luck.

Foot and Mouth has just popped to mind! If the tree is infected with some bug that is 'by law' a problem, then there is a good reason to suspect it may not only apply to the tree but maybe affect something else in the food chain which in turn affects something else which in turn, directly affects us, so play a safe game and get hold of a specialist to do the job!

Look up the American Chestnut tree before you figure you are better equipped to save the world than the people who work with it daily. The cost of failure on your plan could well be Billions of dollars in damage to industries besides the ecological damage to the whole ecosystem.

I'm sorry about your pidling tree, but hopefully you can now plant another one without putting the Florida Citrus industry into the firewood business. Yes, your tree was important to you, and maybe even to me, but the American Elm, Chestnut, and others are too good of an example of what can happen. Once established, pests and diseases are a serious problem.

You are welcome to keep your rabid dog and bat in your house, but if they get out, you deserve to have your balls cut off and fed to you. Without anesthetic.

RichH

Here in central TX it has been Oak Wilt for the past years though much less so at present.

And even as I post this I see a link showing perhaps TX has gotten by better than others.

MAP

cr3

The citrus canker problem was, and is a serious problem to the huge citrus industry in Florida. It affects only the appearance of the fruit. But that is enough to stop the sale of fruit that is sold directly to the public. My concern was the approach the agriculture dept. took to try to eradicate the problem. The 1900 ft. boundary was to imply that the birds and insects that transfered the disease could not fly further than 1900ft. And what about trying to examine a healthy tree that was within the 1900 ft area and did not succumb to the disease. I am fully aware of the damage citrus canker causes. I just felt the agriculture dept only knew "burn them all", and therefor casey jones should be concerned about weather his questions to the agriculture dept. might just get him the same response.

One tree on the edge or the clear zone may be able to stand on it's own, but the probability that it will harbor until a stressful year for it to come out is not something even the experts can predict. Then, 1 infected tree costs another 100 acres of trees. If you lved 2000 ft from the last discovered tree infection, you would be greatful that all of those other trees were sac'ed for yours. It's not too different than the renchers/dairy farmers who have to kill and burn their whole heards when 1 shows with anthrax, or bovine spongioform encephalitis, or foot and mouth. You get my sympathy, but too tell anyone NOT to report an incident is reprehensible. It's not just a civic duty, it's a moral obligtion to stop the spread of these pests.

Even merely slowing the spread will allow time to hopefully find a biologic control, as the wasps and fungus that they are worling on to control the ash bore. Your suggestion is like saying just cause my car ran over someone doesn't make it my fault.

Sorry about the earlier vitriol, but look up the chestnut. See what can happen when someth import gets out of control/

RichH

As memory serves me, the Ash has an uncommon celular structure, which is prone to splintering in a spactacular manner.

When clearing and dropping this timber, it must be cut differently than almost every North American Species.

Inside the Ash is a massive potential of stored energy. When a common horizontal "start cut", is applied to the tree, during felling; it explodes in what looks like "straw broom explosion fashion". That's about the only way to describe it.

Instead, a Diagonal Angled cut must be used and the tree must be bulled with "Block and Falls".

Do you think the unique cellure structure involved, has an effect on the electrical experiment?

Moto

Might be similar to cutting wrought iron with a torch.

RichH

What's all this talk about electrocuting bores in an ash tray?!

What? Oh! Well, never mind.

Hmmm. An electric ashtray. Killing the borers as they use it. Sounds like a permanent cure for smokers.

RichH

This is why the White Ash is preferred for the Louisville Slugger.