The ultimate speed of light

'Jorrie' is the best Guru to answer this sort of thing.

Consider the following, though. One is trying to measure the speed of something using a medium that is slower than that speed. The illusion is therefore that there are two of something, one speeding off one way and the other speeding off in exactly the opposite direction. Does that sound like a matter/antimatter pair?

Hi chtank. "How would one measure a photon or anything that has a velocity greater than the speed of light in a vacuum?"

If any such things existed and we had detectors for them, we could in principle time them like any other object to get speed. To be sure, in practice one would need to know how to generate and transmit such things as well, because if they would come from incoherent natural sources, it would be hard to time the travel over a distance.

One needs to generate a 'pulse' of these things and then either time it over a distance, or send it simultaneously with a light pulse and check the difference in arrival times over the same distance.

"... light that has entered a black hole does not escape -- or does is? Where does the Hawking radiation at the poles of a black hole come from?"

It comes from anywhere just outside the event horizon. A particle anti-particle pair gets split and negative energy falls into the hole while positive energy escapes. Hawking radiation is not a practically proven concept yet...

I think what you refer to as coming 'from the poles' is not Hawking radiation, but ultra-fast particles that is channeled outward from near the poles due to magnetic fields acting on matter orbiting the hole, before falling in. In the case of neutron stars, we detect these jets as radiation generated when the charged particles are accelerated.

I'm not sure if we have detected the same effects from black holes yet. Quasars are thought to be black holes radiating from the extreme temperature of the accretion disk of matter that spirals into the hole (heated by compression and friction).

Jorrie

Then, fellows, ponder further:

Let us consider that this equation might also include the dark energy and matter that is more than 80% of the universe. This dark energy is know to exist because the universe appears to be expanding rather than slowing to collapse in on itself as it should.

We can know only that which we can perceive. Thus, how can we measure that which we cannot perceive. If dark energy propagates velocity beyond the limit of light speed, then this explains why it is dark energy, we cannot perceive it, thus, cannot measure it, thus, it is dark energy.

Of course, now we can get into theoretical physics and discuss the string theory, the M theory and its multiple universes. I will, however, ponder these questions but spend most of my time practicing the application of the sciences to more down to earth engineering problems.

Dear Jorrie?

Is the core of black hole is at the density level near to atomic nucleus density level of heaviest atom and it remains so at that level for very long? We do not see any such things on earth even to AMU 1000. Is there a way to know the density distribution in a black hole? Is it hollow in the middle? Just small fusion makes the Sun, so why not a big explosion in black hole on formation of highly condensed black matter? What happens to the energy lost in formation of bond in black matter? Is the black matter in bound state at all? If so then we should see such thing at other places also. What can bind black matter of the black hole? I suspected that photons also turn into matter inside the black hole and either it is all matter or all different kind of energy which is similar to matter but is not bound and perhaps is quantized in the black hole and is trapped like giant quantum dot by total internal refraction and acting like an optical fiber in the shape of a large bubble. Bound state of the black hole does not look like a happy solution to me and dark matter theory I am not satisfied with. I can call it different form of quantum dot and everything within as trapped energy and plasma. Black holes need to be much larger in mass than mass of the sun to trap the photons within. Their special design can also do that. If black holes have lots of quantum dots on surface then trapped radiation can come out in x-ray or high energy zone on combination of multiple photons. This can also give rise to gaps or frequency spectrum in the x-ray pulsed source formed by quantum structure on the surface of the black hole. It can trap low energy photons and then once high energy photons are built up they will escape out. This must show up typical minimum energy start up edge in the x-ray spectrum and also multiple peaks of the edge energy. I have not seen any x-ray spectrum or pattern of emission and this is my own way to look at it.

Jorrie,

"A particle anti-particle pair gets split and negative energy falls into the hole while positive energy escapes."

I thought it was the particle closest to the black hole falls in, and the other particle (whether matter or anti-matter) escapes. Again, based on the extreme differential of the gravitational field of some black holes... Where the differential is even great on the subatomic distance level.

Hi vermin, you wrote: "I thought it was the particle closest to the black hole falls in, and the other particle (whether matter or anti-matter) escapes. "

I'm not too clued up on the subject, but Wikipedia's Hawking radiation article says:

"...One of the pair falls into the black hole whilst the other escapes. In order to preserve total energy, the particle which fell into the black hole must have had a negative energy (with respect to an observer far away from the black hole). By this process the black hole loses mass, and to an outside observer it would appear that the black hole has just emitted a particle."

Jorrie

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l2/black_holes.html http://constellationx.nasa.gov/public/science/dark_matter.html http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/gwave.html http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/news/releases/2004/04-021.html http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/

guest,

I use the NASA site all the time and am on the NASA science news mailing list. In fact, I have one of the NASA science news articles waiting for me to read right now, titled "Cosmic Cockroaches". I doubt it will mean anything to my work so I probably will delete it. I am far more interested in the work NASA is doing with plasma rockets and with the P+He fusion rockets. It seems they are not saying much about it of late but I know they are testing the mirror (linear) fusion concept as late as 2004.

May I suggest that you provide a quick link to any links you want us to see. The fourth from the left button, right after the B I U buttons, is the link button. I will copy and link each of these site for you now:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l2/black_holes.html

http://constellationx.nasa.gov/public/science/dark_matter.html

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/gwave.html

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/news/releases/2004/04-021.html

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/

Now this lets us click directly onto the link to see the information you are offering us.

Thank you for you interest.

OK, I have had time to look at the story I mentioned in my post just above this one, the 'cosmic cockroaches' story. You might find it interesting. Just because you are a High School Physics student is no reason to not enter into any of these conversation, it is an outstanding way to learn. By not asking questions, you are doing the worst services to yourself that you can do. Life, from beginning to end is a learning experience, beginning with learning to breath, eat, crawl, communicate, walk and run. To help you along, let me give you a free scholarship to MIT for self learning. It will not lead to a degree but if yoiu simply want to know, it will lead to understanding.

Jorrie, perhaps a silly question: Would you please comment on the current understanding of the ultimate fate of matter entering a massive black hole. Our ability to "estimate" the mass of a massive black hole, from it's gravitational effects on nearby stars, would say that the matter is still there, in some form. Quark soup? We see in neutron stars the disappearance of protons and electrons, to become neutrons. Would the next step be only a soup of quarks, an extremely dense soup to be sure. Are there any serious theories being discussed re bleeding of mass-energy from massive black holes into another Universe, or perhaps even a "worm hole" to some other part of our Universe?

Hi Guest.

What is happening with matter at the core of a black hole is not known today, not even theoretically. Every scientist is eagerly awaiting a breakthrough in quantum gravity theory to (perhaps) give an answer. General relativity is known to break down near the Planck scale of size and energy densities and quantum gravity still just won't work out...

From the limited observation done on black holes so far, we cannot even be sure that all the matter that fall into it is still there, although this is what most scientist believe. There are some who study 'worm holes' and the possibility of matter moving through it to other universes, but without too much success to date.

Hope it helps a tiny bit (the more one knows about it, the less certain things become).

Jorrie

Since light can slow and eventually stops in a black hole, there must be regions where light goes slower than normal light speed, which is assumed to be a constant.

If it is possible to go slower, it is possible to go faster.

Quarks, neutrinos, and tachyons are thought to go faster than the speed of light, so light speed clearly isn't some physicsl speed limit.

As for measuring it... if we can measure the speed of quarks, maybe we already have. There is no telling what a photon would look like at these speeds, maybe some of these super speed bits are photons that have been accelerated.

I think the speed of light is a constant only under specific conditions that exist throughout the universe except in certain very unusual circumstances. It's generally treated as a limit on the rate at which information can be transmitted from one place to another. Light can be slowed down considerably as it passes through very dense materials, and it can stop entirely on its way out of a black hole.

No one can know what is inside a black hole--hence the name (they aren't actually black). The surface of a black hole is the event horizon where objects falling into the hole reach the speed of light and appear to be stuck stock still in space. Most of the stuff falling down the gravity well would be subatomic particles, maybe dark matter, but also suns and planets, asteroids chunks of methane ice and the like. It wouldn't be a uniform surface because not everything achieves the speed of light at the same position. Things that approached the black hole close to the speed of light and dead on, like darts aimed at the bull's eye, would reach the speed of light faster than objects that glance off the black hole's surface and orbit it for billions of years as their orbits slowly erode due to friction with other orbiting crap in the accretion disk. Its approach to the black hole would be at a rate of microns per million years and it would probably fall far closer to the singularity before its path is bent toward the center of the black hole and accelerated to the speed of light. Joe Haldeman, in Forever War, based his novel on the assumption that black holes were the openings of worm holes or a passage to another dimension and if you flew straight at one, you would come flying out of another one on a direct line with your path of travel into the first black hole. The universe is infinite, so no matter which way you aim, there is another black hole in a direct line along your line of travel. If you haven't read it, Joe's a first-rate science fiction writer who will remind you of Heinlein without the cringing at stock characters, bad dialog, and right wing ideology.

Hi again rbixby.

Yes, Joe Haldeman's Forever War is good SciFi.

Your description of the surface of a black hole sounds a bit SciFi'ish as well.

You wrote: "It wouldn't be a uniform surface because not everything achieves the speed of light at the same position. Things that approached the black hole close to the speed of light and dead on, like darts aimed at the bull's eye, would reach the speed of light faster than objects that glance off the black hole's surface and orbit it for billions of years as their orbits slowly erode due to friction with other orbiting crap in the accretion disk. ..."

If we are to believe Einstein's general relativity theory, the surface (event horizon) of a black hole contains nothing. Everything falls through the horizon at the speed of light and ends up in the central singularity.

Jorrie

no, there's nothing actually there. All you see are the shadows left behind by the junk falling in. It would probably look stippled and slightly wrinkled like the skin of an orange. If you could see it all through the cloud of accretion. And of course, you'd be drenched in deadly x-ray radiation the whole time, so it's not likely you'd want to stay there admiring it for very long.

Light does not slow down when it travels thru dense dieleectric materiel what happens is the photons travel at their normal speed between atom but upon reaching an atom they are delayed by being absorbed and then re emitted by the electron shells

Light seems to slow down when passing through some materials, glass, clear plastics, water, etc., this is the principle of refraction. As for reflection, the light must change direction, which in turn, means is must come to a complete stop and re-apply its (kinetic?) energy to the new direction without loose of the value of the energy. Now, when light is absorbed in a material such as earth, for example, it transfers its energy to the earth in a form of heat which then re-emerges as light again, this time at a different energy level as infrared. Yet the speed of this infrared light is the same as it was when it first reached it target, just a different energy level. So, what happened to the remaining energy? Does it remain held in its target as matter? After all, E=MC² claims that energy and matter is interchangeable.

I know I seem to have deviated from the theme if this forum somewhat but not really. This physics theme is very closely related to some questions that must be considered in engineering design. Especially the engineering of our vehicles required for space exploration and colonization. Light and the conversion of energy and matter are the main concerns for propulsion and energy conversion. Our solar cells (photoelectrics) depend on this conversion, too. This is why I started this thread (question) as a pondering. I hope all engineers have a liking of physics as much as I do.

"When light is absorbed in a material, and some is re-emitted as infra-red, what happens to to the energy difference?"

According to the physics I was taught (long ago, in a galaxy far, far away) energy "left behind" is stored as an increase in the vibrational rate of the molecule that initially absorbed the photon. We call this "getting hotter" - which is what happens when light (strictly, EM radiation of any frequency) is absorbed by matter.

Hi guest, you wrote: "Since light can slow and eventually stops in a black hole, there must be regions where light goes slower than normal light speed..."

Not so fast! Light travels at normal speed relative to the spacetime in the immediate vicinity of a black hole and probably also inside it. It is just the warping of space between a distant observer and the black hole that creates an illusion of the particles 'stopping' at the event horizon.

Jorrie

the same way you measure the speed of anything--you keep track of the time the photon passed one marker and the time it passes a second marker at some distance from the first and you divide the distance by the time. In fact, some physicists have detected tunnelling in materials that caused a photon to leave the distant end of a sample in less time than it should take the photon to travel the length of the sample. Of course, it didn't actually travel faster than the speed of light, it simply took a shortcut through another dimension that was attached to wormholes at two locations within the sample on a line with the photon's travel.

Hi rbixby. You wrote: "Of course, it didn't actually travel faster than the speed of light, it simply took a shortcut through another dimension that was attached to wormholes at two locations within the sample on a line with the photon's travel."

Of course, it may also be that it is not the same photon emerging on the other side that entered on this side. The jury is still out on these experiments...

Wormholes in a ordinary photon experiment in the lab? I doubt it.

Jorrie

one might think of it as the balls suspended from above such that they touch, let one ball at the end swing to hit the first ball from it and the last ball received the energy and swings out while the remaining balls do not move from the time of the impact.

Hi chtank.

"... let one ball at the end swing to hit the first ball from it and the last ball received the energy and swings out while the remaining balls do not move from the time of the impact."

This is a very good down-to-earth demo of group velocity that can exceed real velocity. It is as if one ball 'tunnels' through the stack and leaves on the other side much sooner than what it should have done, given its speed of impact.

The limit of the 'tunneling speed' is here determined by the speed of sound in the balls, and like in real tunneling, it is not the same ball leaving...

Jorrie

One beauty of the scientific method is that any theory or new discovery must go through the scrutiny of a multitude of peers. Any theory must be proved by many and any experiment must be repeated time and again with the same results.

Especially with the Internet, one must consider the source in making judgments toward credibility of the information. And then, one must also look for confirmation of the information by other creditable sources. It is the scientific method at work (and is also good journalism).

rbixby,

Before you can measure the velocity of "anything", you must first detect the "anything". One cannot measure "anything" if he cannot perceive "anything" can he? We have torn atoms apart to find of what they are made. We have measure the twists and turns and quarks of matter. Yet, we have never measure "anything" that moves beyond the speed of light. (The question still remains, if "anything" is faster than the speed of light, what is it and how do we detect it - after all, we cannot measure what we cannot perceive - my original question re-stated.)

Not being an engineer or a physicist and having only high school physics to rely upon, I regularly make a butt of myself in these discussions.

If you can perceive an object (is that your question?) and the object is in motion, you can set up an apparatus that detects its proximity to two points in space and measure the amount of time it took to traverse that distance. Photons, as I mentioned, have been detected traveling at speeds that appear faster than C through certain materials and the current thinking (at least at the time I read about it) was that the photon in question was tunneling.

If I enter the Boston Marathon and shortly after beginning, I step through a wormhole whose other end is shortly before the finish line, my speed will probably never be apparently faster than my standard eight or nine miles an hour, but I could pass the finish line milliseconds after crossing the starting line. Rosie Ruiz did this in the New York Marathon, using a wormhole known as the subway system. She was careful not to be too far ahead of her fastest challengers--just far enough to win. But she could easily have crossed the finish line minutes after starting the race with the aid of a helicopter or armenian cab driver.

The tunneling photon never actually moved faster than C, but there was a gap in its journey while it took the subway.

At the risk of making a butt of myself once again, I will speculate that if something is traveling at a rate faster than C, we would only be able to perceive it going at C. But the thing we see would only be a husk or a mirage of the thing itself, an artifact of the speed of light, which is also the maximum rate at which we can receive information about the object. Maybe things go faster than C all the time, but by the time we perceive them, they are ghosts--photons without mass--because the massy object itself has moved on. Maybe that's the story behind neutrinos. Let's imagine an object called a nutella traving at 1.1C, a big, fat buckshot of a subatomic particle. we only see its shadow, the neutrino, and like all shadows it defies our ability to detect its mass or its charge. You might as well interview JFK's ghost on a chat show, or Marilyn Monroe's shadow. The shadow is an artifact of our perceptions--when an actual body blocks the light, we see something called a shadow that seems substantial, but on closer examination it has not mass, no substance, just a slight variation in temperature. The neutrino might be that very thing, left behind by an einstein-defying nutella.

The "speed of light" is not constant, as can be demonstrated very easily with common household materials, i.e., a fork and a glass of water, or a prism (OK, maybe some people don't have prisms laying about their kitchens...). The actual velocity of a photon appears to be a function of the density of matter in the region through which it travels; OK, let Einstein's curved space explain this. The real problem is that we define both length and time in terms of electromagnetic radiation (one meter being so many wavelengths of a particular frequency, one second being so many cycles of another frequency). What Einstein actually said, if I understand it, is that the speed of light will appear to be the same for any observer. We also have to deal with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, time contraction (or dimensional foreshortening), and the Planc constants, which limit the resolution we can measure, etc. I once read that what we call the "speed of light" was the ratio of electromagnetic to electrostatic fields (whatever that might actually mean). No matter, actually, "c" being a very useful constant. I find it difficult to accept the notion that electromagnetic radiation has propagated at a constant velocity since the beginning of time...

Regarding the apparent expansion of the universe- is it not possible that this is actually a measure of our acceleration toward the center of the Milky Way? Has anyone studied this possibility? That is, are we falling away from the rest of the universe, rather than the universe expanding away from us? My understanding is that it would be impossible to tell the difference...

Scott Adams and I came up with an explanation of gravity and the expansion of the universe independently. It's remarkably simple. We know that the universe is expanding and not at a uniform rate--it appears to be expanding at a faster rate as time goes on--it's accelerating. The current rate of expansion can be determined by how rapidly the earth is expanding and to do this, simply hold a ball or other object in your hand and watch the earth expand outward to impact upon it as the ball remains motionless in space. The earth and the universe are expanding at an accelerating rate that appears to be about 32.2 feet per second squared. If you look out into the universe, you will discover that this expansion is less, but remember that to look out a distance is to look back in time. At one time the universe was expanding at a slower acceleration. But now it is expanding at the rate some call the acceleration due to gravity. If we could see the distant regions of the universe at the current time instead of billions of years ago, we would see that the whole magilla is expanding at the rate of gravitational acceleration. I can't figure out if this is off topic or not.

Hi rbixby, you wrote: "Scott Adams and I came up with an explanation of gravity and the expansion of the universe independently. ... The current rate of expansion can be determined by how rapidly the earth is expanding and to do this, simply hold a ball or other object in your hand and watch the earth expand outward to impact upon it as the ball remains motionless in space."

Did you and Scott Adams wrote the book "The final theory"?

It says more or less what you wrote and very respectfully stated, it's a big load of nonsense! Gravitationally bound stuff simply do not expand. It is only large regions of space that have any noticeable expansion.

Jorrie

Jorrie,

As for gravity, you might as the two why gravity is so week and all the other forces are strong. hehehehe, now we are getting lost in the M-theory and alternate universes.

Scott Addams, I think. Dilbert's creator.

Well, it APPEARS to be horse hockey, but it is the only theory I've heard that explains the force of gravity and the everyday perception that things fall toward the center of the earth when dropped from a certain height. Coincidentally, gravity also allows us to walk around without flying off into space. I have been told that the only way to detect the difference between gravity and being in a box being accelerated at 32.2 feet per second squared is by holding two pendulums. In the case of gravity, their strings would be slightly unparallel. This is exactly the kind of behavior you would expect if the earth were expanding at that rate of acceleration. Do a thought experiment and imagine that there is no such thing as gravity. Imagine that you are on a sphere that is expanding at an acceleration of 32 feet per second squared. How do you determine that you are not affected by the expansion but by gravity?

It would APPEAR that only space expands because there is so much of it. little dinky things like stars and galaxies could be expanding as well, but since they are so small, their expansion doesn't register--we've only been aware of the expansion for 50 years or so. Maybe it takes more than 50 years for there to be an appreciable expansion of a star. And also remember that if everything is expanding, it would appear that there is a stasis. If you use a rule to measure the earth today and tomorrow, you could show me that the same number of rule lengths measure the circumference of the planet. But the rule is also expanding.

Hi again rbixby, you wrote:

"And also remember that if everything is expanding, it would appear that there is a stasis. If you use a rule to measure the earth today and tomorrow, you could show me that the same number of rule lengths measure the circumference of the planet. But the rule is also expanding."

Yea, and the orbit of the Earth around the Sun would expand at what rate?

Say the Earth expands at a increasing rate, with acceleration of 9.8m/s², so that we can feel or comfy 1g of gravity. How fast do you reckon will we be going relative to Earth's center in 1 year, 10 years, 1 million years? Also try it for the 'expanding Sun'.

If you can calculate that, I think you will immediately drop the 'expansion theory' idea. If you can't calculate it, you have a lot to learn...

Jorrie

Hi rbixby, I perhaps came over a bit 'terse' in my last reply. Apologies.

There actually is a way of looking at the 'force' of gravity as acceleration. To appreciate that, one must understand spacetime geodesics,^[1] at least to some extent. As you sit in front of your computer, Earth's solid surface, via your chair, is accelerating you out of your spacetime geodesic, as determined by the spacetime curvature created by the Earth, the Moon and the Sun.

If you remove the chair, you will instantly start to follow your proper spacetime geodesic, until the floor interferes. This is the modern view of what gravity is and how it can be equivalent to acceleration. I've written an 'engineering-like' article "What is Gravity?"^[2], that will give you a more complete view of how gravity operates, without all the math of the Wikipedia article.

Jorrie

[1] Geodesics in General Relativity

[2] What is Gravity?

If light had different speed then the light sources now reaching earth from far sources will differ in velocities. They don't and they differ only in spectrum so they tell more about the relative motion and not about the light itself if it has changed in velocity.

Another great thing to note that the photon doesn't look like a decaying energy in itself and has infinite life unless it comes in contact with something else on the way. That is one reason we are still getting light from far galaxies.

immortality of the photon also makes it easier to point to that it is not made of many things else they have chance to split away like pair production like transformation we see in presence of matter. Perhaps particles may be more mortal, energy loser due to charge and acceleration than a photon which may be mildly accelerated or de-accelerated near high gravity but may return back to normal speed after it leaves the gravity field. Perhaps if we have a way to monitor photon velocity when it come in close vicinity of heavy star then we may have some idea of what happens to it in its bending path.

This may be interesting one.

Astronomers have found something even tougher—"polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons," says Achim Tappe of the Harvard Center for Astrophysics. "They can survive a supernova."

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/31aug_cockroaches.htm?list1036405

Hi Friend....

"the speed of light may not be finite."

Do you mean that speed of light is infinite..... or you want to say its not possible to know accurate speed of light in vacume...??

Infinite speed means photon travels to destination in no time..... but this is not possible as to move any distance you will require time...

Photon is electro magnetic particals which may or may not be affected by medium in which they travel... but gravity turns light..... There was one experiment done by Albert Eienstine he saw mercury which is exactly behind the sun but still visible on one fine solar eclipse....

Because of exitance of matter in space, space got curve and hence gravity borns.... and this curved space in the way of light makes lights traveling distance long and speed of light becomes slow ..... actually distance is increased because of curve in space..... so u can say distance varies not speed.... because of gravity and because of medium etc....

Photon doesnot travel through atoms in media say atoms of air, glass or water but it will get its zig zag way through medium... or light particles will travel through space gaps of atoms of air water etc but not through its atams to light will have express way in air and narrow way in water..... or more zig zag way in water ....

But we must understand about transferancy of a stuff through which light is traveling and its effect on light.... some matter just dont give space to light to get through.... but glass being in solid state it allows light to travel through...

Electromagnatic energy ...does it travels.....??

for eg... You have one long piece of iron which has lenght of some light year in distance for which light will take five mins to reach one end to another.... and you touch very powerful magnet to a one end then how to calculate the time which takes to reach "MAGNETIC EFFECT" to another end ???

I had read some books on 'The General theory of relativity' in which there r some topics on gravity electromagnatics force between atoms .... actually some thing i understand out of this topic .... is like this...

But i think medium will change speed of light if it haves mass.... or even energy will take time to travel as it has mass on border of existace or not in existance..... if matter forced to travel on speed of light then mass will conver into light...... and it will travel like light n you will see light is travelling not the mass..... means if you r thrown in space on speed of light then you will converted into light all others will see you turned into light n you travelled towards some direction like focus of light....

This is all designed by God or altimate power...... we all r kept inside a container which is in application of perfect phisics..... n laws.... hahaa... if you know everything you will be out of this controlled box......

Good luck....

Vinayak K. Salunkhe.

Physics 101: If something travels faster than light, it gets to its destination before it leaves. In Europe, there is currently discussion on this subject. As far as measuring the event in a vacuum, you only remove external forces that may have an effect on the results, and that is theoretical. Gravitational pull cares less about 14.7 PSI (one atmosphere at sea level) or 30 inches HG (which you cannot obtain, at least in the real world, it being a perfect vacuum). The assumption is that in a vacuum, you emulate weightlessness. You can get a superficial differential, but once you weigh it out, it is moot.

No it isn't. In a vacuum, you could have several moons with no atmosphere and still have gravity. A vacuum simply implies that there is no matter between objects.

Even the the best vacuum in space - Inter galactic space, there's still about one atom per cubic meter of space, but there's still galactic gravity.

As of yet, we have not be able to measure the density of intergalactic space. At teh orbit of earth, the density of (solar wind) plasma - the fourth state of matter - is ± 9 protons (hydrogen), 3 He⁺¹, Si, C, Fe, and O. Assuming that the process has been going on since the big bang, it is reasonable to assume that the density of the plasma in the entire universe is relatively the same except where gravity has collected the matter into clumps similar to the gathering of clouds in our atmosphere. This gathering, btw, gives rise to the star nurseries and the birth of new stars and solar systems.

Hi curious123, you wrote: "Physics 101: If something travels faster than light, it gets to its destination before it leaves."

Careful with this one: in who's frame of reference?

If you could send a particle in the lab at sya 2c, it will still take take 0.5ns to travel 1 foot (light will take 1ns). So it does not arrive before it leaves.

The particles time (dτ) would become imaginary (dτ=√[-1]dt) relative to your time frame (dt), so even there, one cannot really say that it arrives before it leaves.

Jorrie

Einsteins frame of reference. It is this frame of reference that is currently being challenged. Until it is proven wrong, he was a hell of a lot smarter than me, so I gladly accept his conclusion.

"Einsteins frame of reference."

Can you perhaps give a reference where Einstein said that things travelling faster than light would arrive before they left? I'm just curious, because I've not seen one. If he did, I would like to know the context in which he said so.

Jorrie

Gosh,

Ask a simple question and see what answers one gets:

"How would one measure a photon or anything that has a velocity greater than the speed of light in a vacuum?"

I put the photon in a vacuum simply to avoid the problems that reflection, refraction, and gravity might impose on this conversation, but that does not seem to work. With that, I will ask again in different words.

"How can we measure what we cannot observe?" This leads to the next question, "How do we know that light speed is the limit?". Then, how can we explore space beyond our own planet or meet with other intellegent life from even our nearest star, some 4.25 light years away, if we live only 100 earth years? Either we have to live longer as is the case in Star Trek or we must be able to travel at or beyond the speed of light. NASA is working on the problem of Warp Drive, really they are, believe it or not. Nanotechnology, genetics, and medical science is working on aging and longevity and on the computer-brain interface; and they are making rapid progress. So now, with this in mind, let's visit the question again:

"How would one measure a photon or anything that has a velocity greater than the speed of light in a vacuum?"

Interestingly, too, is that three gurus have join this thread. I love it!

Hi again chtank.

"How would one measure a photon or anything that has a velocity greater than the speed of light in a vacuum?"

Let me counter-question you like this: how would you measure the speed of something that does not exist?

I think what I said way up near the start of your thread still holds.

Jorrie

If one cannot observe it, does that mean it does not exist? We know dark matter exists because we can observe its gravity and recently, the existence of dark matter has been observed. Does this mean that dark matter is still dark matter, or is it now un-dark matter. hehehe. and what about dark energy, is has not been observed. However, its effects have been observed, at least in theory. It seems that will all the gravity supposed to have the universe coming to a stop and beginning the collapse in on itself, something we call dark energy is forcing the universe to continue to expand at an accelerating rate. Now, if NASA is looking at a warp drive, regardless of its feasibility, doesn't this, of itself, give some credence to the idea that there is some thought somewhere that light speed is not a limiting factor. Perhaps, too, as the membrane theory (or should we call it membrane postulation?) seems to suggest, there are an infinite number of universes. The math seems to support this, does it not? It talks about some many dimensions, well above the four we know, length, breadth, hight, and time. Remember, this discussion started out as a contemplation. It is a vehicle to stimulate thought toward the problems we face as we begin space colonization, our next frontier. Even our focus on alternate energy, medical research, materials, and nonotechnology is, at least, partially driven by space colonization.

I think, perhaps, that you did not understand Jorrie's reply. I think he was saying "Since nothing travels faster than the speed of light, how do you measure nothing?"

If something did travel faster than the speed of light, we would measure its speed just as one would measure the speed of light or anything else, for that matter. Just because something might move faster than light doesn't mean we "could't" measure it or observe it.

Also, as far as the warp drive is concerned, are you talking about the ion engine program?

Another one - no one has as yet observed the existence of dark "anything." There were some astronomical finds released the other day that "might" be interpreted as dark matter, but most of the astrophysical community is still very skeptical about the results.

Finally, the multiple universe stuff is just scientific fancy. It's fun to play with the numbers, and ask "What if?" But there is absolutely no evidence that there are other universes. For that matter, while more than four dimensions is kind of an interesting place to start a model, physicists have been pounding on that one for about thirty years with diminishing returns. I ain't saying they don't exist, I'm just saying that they remain a "what if" of a mathematical model that hasn't made it to the level of a theory.

Careful vermin, you are reading into some rather important minds in theoretical physics here, People like Stephen Hawking. In many ways, I agree, in a practical engineering way, there are only four dimensions. But there is still quantum physics, vs string theory, vs membrane theory, vs the universal theory of everything. Yes, it is all advanced mathematical equals physics equals theoretical science, but still with many minds more brilliant than ours spending all their time contemplating the subject. I bow to the Einstein's and stand behind the Leonardo's.

"Also, as far as the warp drive is concerned, are you talking about the ion engine program?"

As for my statement about NASA and warp drive, the May 31, 2000, Advanced Space Propulsion Research Workshop may interest you.

My primary interest here is:

"Other presentations will touch on technologies that might allow humans to travel farther in space at a reasonable cost, such as ion propulsion and the "Gossamer Initiative." Speakers will even tackle mind-bending "breakthrough physics" solutions like warp drives and worm holes. While these concepts are still theoretical, in some cases these theories are being tested and might result in a revolution in space propulsion."

As it says, "While these concepts are still theoretical...", the concepts are, none the less, worth contemplation. Notice, too, that the article states; "We are about 5 years away from the break-even point in fusion," said Frisbee. "There is the capability that fusion will allow us to perform long distance missions. One thing of particular concern at the moment is how we will confine the high energy gas once we can make it." It have been seven years since that statement. So now I look to hear that our fusion rocket is a success and will be used to 'Fly me to the moon, to Jupiter and Mars..."

There seems to be a tendency to equate a model's fit to existing data with absolute truth. While data may fit one (or many different) proposed models, this is not a proof that the model is universally applicable. On the human scale, I still find the Newtonian model quite useful, and I am sure many others will agree. A theory is as good as it's ability to predict the future.

Elsewhere, I made the statement that wisdom is the ability to predict the future, and others responded that you cannot predict the future. I maintain that, if one could not predict the future to some degree, we would not have science or mathematics or economics, or, probably not even life as we know it. Predicting the future is saying, "If I take this action now, I expect those results at some future point in time." I am not talking about predicting such things as who will win the American presidential election next year (although I can predict with reasonable confidence that it won't really make that much difference in the short term).

We study information about the past to determine the rules (i.e., models) we use to predict the future. A successful theory is based on having access to sufficient and accurate information about the past evolution of the system under study. Newton's model fits most of what I do on a daily basis; Einstein and Quantum Mechanics are both valid concepts for the realms in which they are applied, but I have yet to find practical application in my daily engineering work. That does not make them wrong, or even inherently inconsistent with each other- they address the problem from different perspectives.

Hi cwarner7_11, you said:

"... Einstein and Quantum Mechanics are both valid concepts for the realms in which they are applied, but I have yet to find practical application in my daily engineering work."

It's normally only when you take out a GPS receiver to (more or less) pinpoint a location that you indirectly use Einstein. In all my years in the aerospace industry, that was the only 'application' that I ever found for my passion for relativity.

Jorrie

Gentlemen, as we speak, I am installing Linux on my new Hard Drive and will soon be back with you on my most powerful quantum computer, hehehe. However, I see my primary slave is failing, too, so will need to remove that. The slave is where I kept all my old Windows files, these will be hard to replace.

Jorrie-

I once built components for Sagnac interferometers intended for use in fiber optic gyroscopes. That is the only time I have ever really used relativity. When I use my GPS receiver, most of the relativity has been factored out by the time the data reaches me...

Congratulations to cwarner7 11, vickyx2007, and probably others who mentioned how the nonuniformity of space might affect our observations about the speed of light. Imagine a light source directly far beyond a distant galaxy. We see the object because gravity in the intervening galaxy bends the light waves from the distant source like a lens, allowing us to see it. Another way to look at the phenomonen is to consider that light passing through the galaxy appears to be travelling slower than light passing around the galaxy. Of course, light is passing through the galaxy at the same speed as the light passing around the galaxy. It is just a longer path through the galaxy because of increased density of space in the galaxy. It is as if the mile or kilometer markers are spaced closer within the galaxy than they are on the outside. The result is the same. Gravity warps space. Matter warps space. Matter and gravity are inextricably linked.

Hi Guest, you wrote: "Of course, light is passing through the galaxy at the same speed as the light passing around the galaxy. It is just a longer path through the galaxy because of increased density of space in the galaxy."

The 'longer path through the galaxy' is just half the story. The 'Shapiro time delay of light'^[1][2] has two components: a space and a time component, each contributing half the total delay. It is as if light 'takes shorter steps and takes them slower' when passing a massive object. The deeper into a 'gravitational well', the stronger both effects become.

Jorrie

[1] The best, down-to-earth discussion of the Shapiro delay that I've seen is in Clifford Will's book: Was Einstein Right?

[2] I've written a 'technical lite' summary of the Shapiro delay in the chapter "Test of Relativity" of my eBook. The chapter can be downloaded free from the link given.

Hi Jorrie: Thank you for the references. I didn't know about the Shapiro time delay. I have a copy of your ebook. It would be nice if you could travel the world giving lectures based on the contents of your book.

To the point wery soon but first an intruduction to Space travelers;
DEFINITIONS:
Spacepeople are creatures who come from a geographical place outside the Earth and must cross the space in order to come here. A nature plane is the world a creature observes through his normal physical senses. Prubunsic nature planes are those nature planes that lay after each other along the dimension coordinate 6 (microidic density). Prubunsic space travelling, are space travelling in the hyperspace along the dimension coordinate 6. The hyperspace is the space seen with its total amount of dimensions who are more than 4. Humpnap is a therm for Human Physical Nature Plane. This is the term for that nature plane on Earth where the human physical civilizations reside. The engonic nature planes are those nature planes that lay along the dimension coordinate 5 (the energy dimension). This scale is at Earth described as the difference between the etheric plane, astral plane, and mental plane and so on. Engonic space travelling is space travelling in hyperspace along the dimension coordinate 5 (the energy dimension). The ulbutrasic coordinate system is a coordinate system that the dimension 5 coordinate is the vertical axis, and the dimension 6 coordinate is the horizontal axis. Those 2 axes are placed 90 degree to each other. The time is the depth axes who point right out of the paper 90 degree in relationship to the 2 other axis. ITM is a process for two way energy transfer between energy planes. The process is used to create propulsion energy for interstellar travel, teleportation and many other things. A microid is particles that carry the waves that finally make up the physical universe and all the different nature planes in hyperspace. The density difference between the different types on microides makes the prubunsic dimension axis. The difference between a microide and a super universe is the dimensions coordinate 7. A superuniverse is a mikroide in an atomic universe inside another super universe one step up on the dimension coordinate 7. In the microide meets the biggest and the smallest. The microidic plane is energyplane 7 on dimension coordinate 5. A cosmos is a 4 dimensional globe among many others inside a super universe. We live inside a cosmos. A cosmos can also be mentioned as a universe.

STARSHIP ENERGY SYSTEMS
This text discusses an energy system specifically designed as the main power supply for starships. The system is intended to supply the main propulsion system of the ship. The main propulsion system is constructed so that the tube from the energyplane 2 source goes directly to a "crystal ball" where the propulsion force is generated. The injection amplifiers and other necessary equipment for the main propulsion system are driven by a HELENE oscillator. The oscillator is equipped with its own energy plane 2 source and modulator. This source is independent of the source used in the main propulsion system. The propulsion system modulator consists of a tube approximately 2 meters in diameter and 6 meters long. The tube contains 1000 injection electrodes. If a crystal modulator is used, the crystal must also have 1000 electrodes. The main propulsion modulator can have approximately 1000 channels. Each channel must provide +/- 1000000 Volt PEP and have a frequency range from DC to 1 GHz. The power in each channel amplifier must be 1000 Watts minimum. If a crystal modulator is used, each channel must have +/- 1000 Volt with a frequency range from DC to 1 GHz. The minimum required power is 10 Watts per channel. Within the modulator a frequency picture is generated which is at the correct phase with respect to a target star. This frequency picture is used to generate the attractive force which draws the ship to the star (this is system B for interstellar travel). There are also 2 other modulators in the ship. These modulators are used to create the compensation field allowing the ship to travel faster than the speed of light. Each of these 2 modulators has its own generator and amplification system. There is also a third extra modulator. This modulator generates the antigravity field surrounding the ship, which is used to repel meteors and other things encountered during space flight. This modulator can be further modulated by a sub frequency picture which creates a cloaking (invisibility) field. The antigravity system is also used for precision steering when the ship is within a planetary atmosphere. The ship described here is the cigar-shaped "mother ship" type. In the drawing is shown only the HELENE oscillator and the main propulsion system modulator. Normally the main propulsion system circuitry draws approximately 10000000 Watts from the HELENE oscillator. This oscillator is the heart of the ship's power supply system. The power generated by this oscillator, as much as it is, is still negligible when compared to the power generated by the ship's main propulsion system when the ship is engaged in interstellar travel.

THE SPEED OF LIGHT AND INTERSTELLARE TRAVELLING
When a polytron moves with high velocity through space, a Doppler effect is created in its energy plane. This means that the swing product of the polytron is changed with respect to the normal frequencies of that energy plane. If the Doppler Effect is big enough the swing product of the travelling polytron approaches the gravity frequency. This causes the polytron to massively attract gravitons (particles which are oscillating at the gravity frequency). One can say that the mass of the polytron increases in an uncontrolled way. At the speed of light the doppler-shifted frequency of the polytron will be in phase with the gravity frequency. The solution to this problem is to compensate the Doppler shift by out phasing. Aboard a spaceship this is done by using special materials in the front and rear of the cigar shaped mother ship. The front unit keeps the swing product frequency down as the ship approaches the speed of light. The rear unit raises the frequency of the swingproduct to prevent time dilation between the spaceship and the planets. These phase-compensating methods can permit the ship to exceed the speed of light. This method is called system B for interstellar travel. Another method is to bring the entire ship up to a nature plane on energy plane 2. This means to move the ship along the energy dimension far enough that graviton binding is released. This causes the ship to disappear from the physical nature plane and appear on a high etheric nature plane. On this nature plane the maximum speed is the light speed multiplied by it-self. While the ship is in this mode it is totally invisible to any human instruments. This method is widely used. The limitation of the method is that the crew must be developed enough that their consciousness can work properly within the person's etherical and astral bodies. If the crew is not developed to that level they will lose consciousness while the ship is in the high mode. When the ship returns to low mode the missing gravitons are reinstated and the ship appears as from nothing seen from humpnap. When the ship is in high mode it can go right through mountains and other physical things without causing interference with those things. In this mode the ship travels through the Earth to reach the underground bases built by the space people without being detected by Earth military. In high mode the ship can travel faster than light without difficulty. The propulsion method is the wave method where the ship is put in phase or counter phase with respect to waves in the cosmos. The system which switches between high and low mode is called system C for interstellar travel. There also exist other methods of interstellar travel. One of these methods is to manipulate space and time itself so that the ship is moved through space without needing to directly travel the normal physical distance. This method creates shorter paths through space by bending three-dimensional space itself in a fourth physical dimension. In advanced systems using this technique you can jump from one spot in space to another without using time between jumps. The ship can effectively enter a plane which is time-independent. From this plane a frequency picture which is in harmony with the target area is emitted from the ship. This causes the ship to teleport instantly to that target area without loss of time. With this method it is also possible to travel forward and backward in time. For time-travelling the frequency picture corresponding to a special historical event must be emitted in combination with the frequency picture to the target area. This will cause the ship to teleport to the right space and time. The timeless plane has its own time dimension which is independent of all other time dimensions. Inside the timeless plane you will find that you are floating in a white fog. It isn't necessary to eat and you do not grow older. Your thought activity is normal and you can move your body within the space you occupy. By mental power or technical equipment you can teleport from the timeless state. This system is called system A for interstellar space travel. This system is used by the Pleiadians. Their method is to accelerate the spacecraft to near the speed of light. When the right speed is reached, the ship is frequency-shifted into the timless state and then teleported over a distance of many light-years. The new Pleiadian method doesn't require acceleration to light speed before teleporting. The Zeta Reticulis also use a modified A method. They use three combined rays of gravity to create an intense gravity field which is strong enough to bend space in the 4th dimension. They don't access the timeless plane directly but make a short-cut through space. When they then travel physically a few thousand Km they are in fact travelling several lightyears. They amplify the gravity frequency in certain gravity amplifiers which are phase-shifted 180 degrees with respect the normal gravity frequency. Their method is a cross between methods B and A. To access the gravity frequency they use the element with periodic number 115. This material emits a copy of the gravity frequency at energy plane 1. This frequency can be amplified with ordinary electricity-driven energy plane 1 amplifiers. In a gravity amplifier output unit the energy is converted from energy plane 1 to energy plane 2, which then generates the propulsion energy. If you make a momentary (movement) via the timeless plane, you will not experience an intermediate condition. The energy limit needed for momentary travel is lower than the energy limit for entering the timeless space and remaining there until you teleport. If you use a lower energy rate than this critical limit you teleport automatically. With this in mind it is possible to create a special spacecraft which has a so-called annulative (impulsive teleport) propulsion system. This spacecraft will oscillate in an out of the transport state periodically in a serial of hyper leaps. The distance you move in the transport state depends of the strength of the initial high energy force injected into the propulsion field just before the hyper leap. The ship only needs approximate 0.5 picoseconds to jump. The crew will therefore not register this jump at all. The ship can, for example, move 1000000 Km in each jump 100000000 times a second. The propulsion mechanism could be a condenser which is charged with the right high energy power. This condenser is discharged by a "thyristor" mechanism which is triggered by a frequency of 100 MHz. The energy of each discharge is transferred to a transporter converter which initiates the ship's jump using a power field that is in some ways similar to the field in a black hole. When the jump distance is set to 1000000 Km and the trigger frequency is 100 MHz, the speed of the ship is just above the speed of light squared. The actual physical speed causing the kinetic energy can be much lower. Seen from the physical side the ship can perhaps move only at 100 miles/hour or stands still. The propulsion speed is therefore artificial and has nothing to do with normal natural physical laws of movement. There is no limit how fast a ship can move using this method. By increasing the jump setting and the trigger frequency it's possible to travel intergalactic distances in short times. You can also undertake inter-universal space travel. In order to leave our universe and travel to another universe, the energy injected into the transport field must be greater than the escape-energy from our universe. The escape energy is 15 Zontal-S for our universe. In this kind of ship both the jump setting and the trigger frequency can be varied. The trigger frequency must be over 100 KHz. Over this frequency level the crew will feel nothing from the propulsion. An advanced ship of this type is able to scan the target point just before jumping. This happens in the picosecond-time the ship is in the timeless space. From this space it is easy to observe every point in the universe. If there is an object at the target point, an extra amount of energy is injected into the field, causing the ship to jump a little longer to avoid the object. A system-A propelled ship will have the kinetic energy it had when it began its travel. Since all planets are moving with respect to each other, the ship's kinetic energy with respect to the target planet may be much larger than the kinetic energy with respect to the planet from which the ship began. Before landing the ship must balance this energy. This braking can be done by using a system B propulsion system, braking the ship by antigravity waves. If one doesn't do this the ship may collide after the system A propulsion is turned off. This will occur even if the ship lands using system A. The ship can be standing still by means of the A system by jumping to the same point in every jump. This makes it possible to land with the kinetic energy potential. Another method is to balance the kinetic potential by direct ITM after a system A landing. If the system is turned off without this balancing the kinetic energy can be discharged all at one time causing the ship to collide if this energy vector is pointing down. If this vector is pointing up the ship will take of immediately. If you travel to a planet in another galaxy the kinetic energy potential will be so great that you must use direct ITM to balance this energy. In another method of system A travelling you don't need a ship at all. By this method you use a hand-held transporter at the size of a small walkie talkie. By pressing a button you can with your inner eye (clairvoyance) get a picture of the target area. By pressing this button the box injects energies into your aura that enables and amplifies your natural clairvoyance. In the clairvoyance mode you can search out new places. When you have found a suitable target you keep the picture of this place clear inside your head while you press another button. This button registers the place you had in your head in the box memory. The box then calculates the coordinates for teleporting to this place. When the box has done this an indicator on the box tells you that the system is ready. By pressing a third button you are moved momentarily to the timeless space. Then the box transmits the frequency picture which harmonizes with the target location. You are then rematerialized in the target location immediately. This happens so fast that you will not feel the moment when you were in the timeless space. The target can be anywhere in the universe, from a neighbor's house to a planet in another galaxy. The time the system uses to dematerialize and materialize is the same independent of the transport distance. Right after arrival at the planet in the other galaxy your kinetic energy potential to that planet is balanced automatically by ITM. In the box you can store coordinates to many places. It is possible through meditation and other esoteric training methods to develop the power to do system A jumps without any technical devices. In this case the ability is programmed into the structure of your higher bodies. The Pleiadians have a ship they call variation 5. The ship uses this method to jump via the timeless space to another target in one big jump. The big Pleiadian mother ship also uses this method, which enable them to jump over distances of thousands of lightyears in a single jump. The timeless space is common for the entire super universe. It's therefore possible to jump from one cosmos to another. The energysource must in this case be beklimatization energy, by modulating the zontalray by unatomic vibrations inside a special crystal. CIGAR SHAPED SPACECRAFT (System B Propulsion) Large cigar shaped "mothership" craft use system B, which is essentially a wave propulsion system. The system generates energy plane 2 (hereafter, EP2) waves which are in counter or discounter phase to EP2 waves present in space. The mother ship operates according to the following general description: At the front of the ship are some conic holes. These "holes" are transmitting and receiving devices. The "holes" can be invisible seen from the outside of the ship. The receiving holes are placed behind the transmitting holes. When preparing for interstellar travel, the ship directs its front in the direction of the target star. The swingproduct from this star at EP2 are received by the receiving holes. These holes are connected to an EP2 receiver. In the receiver the signals are digitized. Then the signal is directed to a powerful computer. This computer calculates the modulation frequency picture which will put the ship in the right phase with respect to the EP2 waves from the star. This electrical frequency picture is generated by a PLL generator array. The frequency picture is split up into many channels. Each channel is amplified to a amplitude of 1000000 Volt PEP. Each channel is connected to specific electrodes inside a high-energy modulator tube. Through this tube runs an orgon force or other suitable force. Inside the tube a frequency picture similar to that generated by the star, but in another phase, is generated. This picture is modulated into the high energy stream running through the tube. The modulated EP2 stream is mixed with an isotropically generated EP2 field which surrounds the entire ship. When these 2 frequencies are mixed you get a frequency which is the sum of the two original frequencies. This frequency sum creates an attractive force between the ship and the star on energyplane one (EP1). The modulated EP2 stream is mixed with the unmodulated isotropic field at the transmitting "holes". The reason for the mixing is to eliminate centripetal acceleration. The propulsion force will work at the same level on every atom in the ship at the same time. This means that the ship can make rapid course changes and accelerations without affecting the crew. When the ship approaches the speed of light a special device in the ship is activated. The device compensates for the Doppler Effect the ship generates in the microidic plane by the ship's movement. This Doppler Effect causes the mass of an object to increase as it approaches the speed of light. This is caused when the material frequency of the object approaches the gravity frequency. If these frequencies come into phase the mass of the object would be infinitely high. The compensation device transmits antidoppler waves on EP2 causing the effect to be eliminated. When the compensation device is active the ship can travel faster than the speed of light because the ship's mass no longer increases. The EP2 waves have a speed which is the square of the lightspeed. This permits the ship to move at close to 90 billion Km/sec at maximum speed. (90000000000 Km/Sec) Around the ship is a force field loaded with antigravitons (particles which are oscillating in a phase opposite that of the gravity frequency). This field prevents the ship from colliding with something. If the ship moves toward an unknown black hole, the ship is automatically repelled from the hole because of this antigravity field. This will cause the ship to swing around the hole and contain at its normal course. The EP2 velocity allows the ship to reach the Sirius system in approximate 20 minutes at its maximum speed. To reach the Pleiades the ship needs approximate 14 days. If you are going to travel to the Andromeda galaxy, you will need energy plane 3 energies, which permit intergalactic travel at high velocities. The speed and acceleration of the ship are controlled by the phase difference between the signal transmitted from the ship, and the signal received from the target. When the ship approaches the target star system the ship transmits counter phase waves with respect to the target. This will cause the ship to brake. When we arrive in the target solar system, we turn off the frequency picture causing attraction to the star. When we find a planet in the system, we can lock the propulsion system to EP2 waves emitted from the planet. This attracts the ship to the planet. As we approach the planet we emit counterphase waves with respect to the planet. This will brake the ship enough to enter a planetary orbit. The orbital altitude is decided after the ship leaves its counterphase state. If the brake is big enough the ship will enter into the planetary atmosphere. Here we can control the ground altitude of the ship by using the force of the antigravity field surrounding the ship. Standard altitude is approximately 5000 meters. Here the ship is typically stabilized and scoutships sent out. If we take the mother ship near the ground, a zero gravity zone will be created between the ship and the ground. Things on the ground under the ship will then lose their gravity. Some objects may be attracted to the ship because they absorb antigravitons from the field around the ship. (According to the law of gravity, two things which both have negative gravity with respect to a third thing attract each other). This influence effect will only occur with small things. Against the big thing (the planet) we still have a repulsive force. If a small thing approaches the ship from outside the antigravity zone it will be repelled. The influence effect will only occur with things which are forced inside the antigravity field as it would be when the antigravity field reaches down to the ground. The steering of the ship inside the atmosphere can be done by bending the planetary magnetic field in different angles and directions around the ship. The ship can move by attracting and repelling the planetary magnetic field. In order to bend the magnetic field, one must use EP2 forces in an ITM process. If the planet doesn't have a magnetic field, one can bend the gravity itself in desired direction and steer with that. This will cause the ship to "fall" in the desired direction. This text has outlined the use of system B for interstellar travel. There are several other principles which are used for interstellar space travel as well.

GLOBE AND SAUCER SHAPED SPACECRAFT.
This type of spacecraft functions in a different manner than do cigar-shaped craft. This type of ship doesn't use energy plane 2 (EP2) waves from a star as its reference. Instead, it uses a universal EP2 reference which is present all over the universe and which doesn't have any specific direction. Inside a globe-shaped spacecraft are 3 reflecting areas placed in the pattern of a 3 dimensional triangle. This material reflects EP2 waves. The 3 reflectors are used for propulsion and steering. The reflectors reflect the energy which is directed against them from an EP2 generator. In a saucer-shaped spacecraft these generators can be placed in a triangular pattern under the spacecraft or at least inside the under section of the spacecraft. In some spacecraft the generators are not directed against a reflecting material, but use antennae directly inside 3 globes. In the drawing of the globe-haped spacecraft only one reflector is shown. Generator B is a heterodyne generator to generator A. Generator A can change its phase 360 degrees with respect to generator B. The generator A+B swing product will be at the frequency of a universal EP2 wave. The reflector will beam the A+B swing product in the travel direction. Since we have 3 different A-type Generators in the spacecraft in a triangular pattern, we can steer the ship in the proper direction by putting different phases at the generator A antennae. Then the spacecraft will travel along the resulting vector which is the sum of the 3 different generators A forces. In a saucer-shaped spacecraft generator B is the vertical rod which is in the middle of the ship. The 3 A-type generators are the 3 globes under the ship. The reason why we use the sum of A+B as propulsion is because through this approach one can eliminate the centripetal acceleration in the ship. This will cause the propulsion energy to act on all the atoms in the ship at the same time. The crew will therefore feel nothing from rapid course changes and acceleration. The G force during such maneuvers will be eliminated. The C Generator will create an antigravity zone around the ship. This will automatically cause the antigravity stream always is bigger than the gravity stream around the ship, which prevents the ship from colliding with other objects in space. This field will also cause automatic compensation allowing the ship to move faster than the speed of light. As one can see, this ship is much more simply constructed than the larger cigar-shaped mother ship. This ship must have an advanced navigation device since it does not steer automatically against a preset energetic target. With this ship there is a danger that one can lose one's orientation in the galaxy if one isn't observant and the navigation device should fail. This can't happen with the cigar-shaped spacecraft when its propulsion system is active. The globe-shaped ship can use interstellar propulsion forces all the way down to the ground. This can have negative influences on persons near the spacecraft during landing. This because the waves from the spacecraft affects a person's etherical body (energy plane 2). The waves from the propulsion system in an intergalactic ship influence a person's astral body (energy plane 3). The A generators are usually turned off just before landing. The observable result of this is that the light-emitting aura around the ship disappears. With the A generators off there's no danger being near the ship during landing. If the ship should land in a city, the 3 A generators are turned off approximately 100 meters above the ground. The B and C generators are set in counter phase with the gravity frequency holding the ship flying. Landing is accomplished by gradually decreasing the power output from the B+C generators. The disadvantage of this method is that the ship is without steering after the three A generators have been turned off. If the wind is strong in the area the ship can be blown off course. In practice this type of ship has a system that can bend gravitation with respect to the ship, and use this for steering all the way down during landing. If the ship has this capability the A generators can be turned off when the ship is still in space. A ship that uses the A generators within the atmosphere will create a strongly illuminated etheric aura around itself. The light is generated because the valence electrons in the air atoms are alternated in phase with the power field created by the A generators. This causes the air atoms near the ship to emit photons. This also causes radio interference, especially in the VHF band. One can thus observe vertical stripes and other disturbances on a TV set near such spacecraft. These craft are often strongly illuminated as mentioned earlier. The light cloud surrounding the ship can be so strong that it is difficult to see the ship structure itself trough the cloud. The field creating this light is often the heterodyne A+B field. This is the main propulsion field that surrounds the ship. If a car comes near such a ship the motor may stop because the etheric wave front from the ship can blow the electrons out of the wires in the ignition system. If the field is strong enough the electrons from the accumulator are also prevented from following the copper wires. This causes the entire electrical system in the car to stop. You can measure magnetic and electric fields in the vicinity of such a ship. When coming to Earth, such a ship often modulates a subcarrier into its B generator. This acts as a cloaking device, making the ship invisible to human eyes. A cloaked ship must use steering frequencies which do not create an illuminated cloud around it. If a person comes too close to a ship with the etheric cloud surrounding it, the person's etheric body can be temporarily damaged. The radiation from that cloud can cause burns to the person's skin. The electrons can also be blown out of the person's nerves, causing temporary disability. There have been cases where the space people haven't taken this seriously enough. This has caused trouble for some persons who were to close to the ship. Inside the ship itself this radiation is different. It generates only a soft light coming from everywhere. Some space people are immune to such radiation and thus do not understand the Earth human problems with this. When the ship is in space itself the radiation from the A+B generator is no danger even for Earth humans. It's the etheric cloud created around the ship while in the atmosphere which can be the danger. This cloud does not form inside the ship, and thus is no danger there. The etheric cloud creates new etherical frequencies which can be dangerous. The A+B field itself has no dangerous effects. Earth military are often hostile to these ships. This is one reason for keeping the A generators on all the time: it makes the ship able to accelerate away from military projectiles and rockets. If the ship can move along the energy dimension, then such attacks are no problem because the ship can swap to another nature plane where the projectiles have no effect. Some spacecraft come from planets which do not have engonic transport capabilities. It is these ships which are susceptible to military attacks. Some of them have cloaking devices, but often these devices do not cover the entire electromagnetic spectrum. This makes it possible for the military to trace such ships with special radar and scanners even when the cloaking devices are active. Some ships are also protected by a disintegration field just outside their hulls. The primary function of this field is to disintegrate small meteors and other physical objects which might penetrate the antigravity field during space travel. This field will disintegrate military projectiles and rockets. Spacecraft which do not have this protective field are vulnerable to military attacks. On most planets there is no problem with military technology so many ships do not carry special protective systems against such attacks. D.Myrland, 06-08-1984)

Sci-Fi?

Yes for the earth human it is Sci-Fi, however this is facts and happens all the time out there in the big super universe.

You want me to make it less long? Impossible! This is as short as it gets.

Bye

You want me to make it less long? Impossible! This is as short as it gets.

You can do better than that, surely. I mean, really! Like, take your statement "The etheric cloud creates new etherical frequencies which can be dangerous." This is common knowledge, rudimentary even. So you can nix that statement. Likewise the bit about "blowing electrons out of nerves." Any half-decent Philly Blunt will do that. None of that needs repeating here, especially on this Forum. Think about it.

Btw, good thing I'm a Shape-Shifter. We're going out tonite, my date's a xenophobe, and she'd absolutely freak if she saw me in my carapace. I just hate drama, don't you?

Well, gotta go,
- Klaatu

It's OK, don't get upset. We vermin have been riding with you guys for a long, long time. So we know it's all true... Well, after all, a free-ride is a free-ride!