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johnpaul8686
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Polyurethane Moulding

11/28/2017 5:37 PM

Hi There,

I'm stuck with options as to how polyurethane OM can adhere to LSZH cable jacket.

Any recommendations please.
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SolarEagle
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#1

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/28/2017 6:30 PM

Use an adhesion promoter....

https://www.rshughes.com/p/3M-Scotch-Weld-AC77-Cyanoacrylate-Adhesive-Primer-Clear-Liquid-1-Gal-Can-62653/048011_62653/

https://www.rshughes.com/p/3M-4298UV-Adhesion-Promoter-Yellow-Liquid-1-Gal-Can-For-Use-With-Low-Surface-Energy-Plastics-64193/021200_64193/

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johnpaul8686
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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/28/2017 9:29 PM

Thanks Mate.

  1. Ethylene tetrafluoroethylene (ETFE) IS THE CABLE JACKET INSULATION MATERIAL AND I'M TRYING TO ADHERE THIS TO EITHER HENKEL MACROMELT PA646/POLYURETHANE OVER MOULDING MATERIAL.
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SolarEagle
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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/29/2017 1:44 AM

Found this...

These guys might be of some help....

https://www.ellsworth.com/resources/ask-the-glue-doctor/

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PWSlack
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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/29/2017 3:14 AM

Please STOP SHOUTING!

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IQ
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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/30/2017 9:13 AM

Never heard a thing as it was all typed words!!! Puzzled as to why this is deemed shouting so any explanation that makes sense in a real world is fine.

Who actually decided typing in capitals, in bold is shouting? How many people get upset by a box of CORNFLAKES or MUESLI on a shopping gondola. How about RADAR or SCUBA or people who write in capitals? Are they shouting too. Really!
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lyn
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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/30/2017 9:42 AM

I.m amused at your response. I'm surprised that the obvious answer that is before you escapes you.

ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING on the ineternet when engaged in communication using e-mail or forums such as this.

I'd think that it would be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

“All-caps in an email looks like shouting because when someone is shouting, you're aware of the shout, and not the nuance,”

Netiquette of Capitalization: How Caps Became Code for Yelling ...
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Jpfalt
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#18
In reply to #15

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

12/01/2017 11:17 AM

Yeah, I had to turn down my visual aide to keep from burning my retinas.
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redfred
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#16
In reply to #4

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/30/2017 12:16 PM

Fluorine is a halogen. If the jacket material is ETFE then it is not Low Smoke Zero Halogen (LSZH).

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lyn
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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/30/2017 2:26 PM

I should have caught that myself, especially when spelling out ETFE.

Tunnel vision maybe.
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Brave Sir Robin
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#2

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/28/2017 7:27 PM

If you are potting with something like PR-1592

http://www.ppgaerospace.com/getmedia/e312ecf9-52e1-4034-bbce-2606c3bf699b/pr_1592.pdf?ext=.pdf

You can prime the jacket with something like Chemlok 7701

https://www.lord.com/sites/default/files/Documents/TechnicalDataSheet/DS3223_Chemlok7701.pdf

or PR-1543 for PVC insulation

http://www.ppgaerospace.com/getmedia/883fd5ca-bea8-4620-a270-07b32082e371/pr_1543.pdf?ext=.pdf

If there are metals that will be potted, you will probably want to use something like 6840B or PR-420 for metal surfaces.

http://www.ppgaerospace.com/getmedia/bea6e9fc-6e31-42ab-be64-8972d4e40dd5/Metal_Primer_6840B.pdf.aspx?ext=.pdf

http://www.associatedindustriesinc.com/documents/PRC/pr_420.pdf

Good luck with your quest.
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johnpaul8686
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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/28/2017 9:30 PM

Thaks for your inputs Sir Robin.

ETPE is the cale jacket insulation material and i'm trying to adhere this to either Henkel macromelt 646/ polyurethane over mould.
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Brave Sir Robin
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#12
In reply to #5

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/29/2017 6:34 PM

As Lyn stated, it will be difficult to get good adhesion to any of the fluoropolymers. I have heard that plasma treatments help improve the adhesion to polyethylenes, but not sure about the fluoropolymer family of insulation.

We typically only overmold neoprene jacketed cables for underwater use.

You might want to talk to these folks about your challenge.

http://reltekllc.com/fluoropolymers.aspx

Cheers!
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lyn
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#3

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/28/2017 8:30 PM

Please do not use unknown abbreviations on a forum of strangers.

"polyurethane OM" can mean many things to many people. Maybe over molding, maybe not.

LSZH cable jacket is also a mystery. The term does not define the material that may be "LSZH" only the fact that the mystery material, whatever it may be, is "LSZH" whatever that is.

The adhesion of one material is strictly determined by the materials being joined and the process being used, not their degree of hazard.

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Ivanov327950
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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/29/2017 1:17 AM

You are partially right Lyn.

In this case Low Smoke Zero Halogen is the first term that appears on google, and it is the insulation widely used for electrical installations in industrial environments for safety issues according to the last regulations. However, over moulding would not be that easy to get from a simple search.

While using this type of language is helpful for restricting the thread to those who have some experience on the topic, it could get confusing to them as well, since as you said, acronyms mean different things for different people.

This behaviour may be helpful for avoiding bored users posting off-topic replies, but it certainly limits what members can learn from this thread. Which leads to identifying the poster with unpleasent adjectives.

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lyn
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#11
In reply to #6

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/29/2017 5:18 AM

Let me explain in more detail the reason for my post that , since you seem to have missed the point completely.

LSZH cables can be made from different materials, each with its own chemical make-up.

As I explained, the term "LSZH" does not define the material that may be used for the insulation, only that the material produces low quantities of smoke and halogens when exposed to high heat.

As I also explained, "The adhesion of one material is determined by the materials being joined and the process being used, not their degree of hazard."

Further, there is this thing called "surface energy" which is different with every material and directly affects the ability of one material to "stick" to another material.

After my post, though perhaps not because of it, the OP explained that the material in question was ETFE, another acronym for a type of polytetrafluoroethylene, commonly known as Teflon®. ETFE is ethylene tetrafluoroethylene, an inert material that is extremely difficult to join with other materials.

In my limited knowledge of LSZH materials, ETFE is not the only material that is LSZH in nature. Others are TPU, TPE and the polyolefins (feel free to Google them), all of which have varying degrees of "surface energy" and various degrees of difficulty in joining to other materials.

Apparently, OP is trying to OM ETFE, one of the least "sticky" of all materials, with TPU, another name for a type of polyurethane. (there is a class of PU that is also thermosetting and not thermoplastic)

Others have offered suggestions for the enhancement of adhesion of between materials, so I won't bother.
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Anonymous Poster #1
#8

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/29/2017 3:06 AM

https://www.acronymfinder.com/OM.html

https://www.acronymfinder.com/Low-Smoke-Zero-Halogen-(cable)-(LSZH).html
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Anonymous Poster #1
#10

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/29/2017 3:18 AM

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lyn
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#13

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

11/29/2017 11:09 PM

Relativity PL is an expert in the field of TFE/ETFE.
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Relativity PL
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#19
In reply to #13

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

12/01/2017 2:43 PM

Thank you Lyn ... but when the OP contacted me about the subject he told me it was ETPE not ETFE. It's dangerous to give right answers to wrong questions.
If he really means ETFE, there's a deal of industry references including:

http://reltekllc.com/pdf_files/pdf_techdata_library/Applications/TechLibrary_Applications_A-43_HM-502_bonding-Tefzel.pdf

This directly addresses overmolding of ETFE with polyurethane.
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redfred
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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

12/01/2017 3:00 PM

Hmm, it must be difficult to glue to something that keeps changing its chemistry.

The OP clearly stated in entry #4 that this was ETFE. Then again the OP also thought this was LSZH.

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Relativity PL
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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

12/01/2017 3:04 PM

But in #4 he had a different view:

"ETPE is the cale jacket insulation material"
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redfred
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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

12/01/2017 3:22 PM

"Ethylene tetrafluoroethylene (ETFE) IS THE CABLE JACKET INSULATION MATERIAL..." One cannot get more explicit than that.

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lyn
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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Polyurethane Moulding

12/01/2017 3:26 PM

That was #5 where the term ETPE was introduced, and I just attributed the letter change to confusion, or lack of knowledge on the part of our confused OP. All the more reason to spell out words.

The only "ETPE" I am aware of is energetic thermoplastic elastomer (ETPE)

That is a binder system for advanced gun propellant formulations manufactured by ATK Thiokol, according to the web site.

So, unless the OP is making explosive primer cord, I'm ready to abandon all hope for his success.

And without adequate, specific material identification I believe it is not safe to continue providing information to them.
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Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (2); Brave Sir Robin (2); IQ (1); Ivanov327950 (1); johnpaul8686 (2); Jpfalt (1); lyn (6); PWSlack (1); redfred (3); Relativity PL (2); SolarEagle (2)

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