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This is an Interesting Concept

03/08/2018 5:20 PM

An 8 Cylinder engine with only (2) connecting rods. At first, I thought that must really put stress on the connecting rod bolts, because you would be powered in both directions of the rod.

U

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#1

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/08/2018 6:47 PM

Bet there aren't any actually "running" examples are there?

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/08/2018 10:46 PM

Not that I know of, I see it as an brainstorming concept that was put on the table.

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#2

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/08/2018 7:25 PM

2? I count 10. Under each of those pistons a connection is made joining the linear piston motion to the arc of that rocker-like pseudocrank.

If not accepted as a bonefide connecting rod in the strictest definition, then it would still at leasr be a 'quasi-connecting rod'.

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#22
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 10:30 AM

As Rixter's schematic shows there is 10 connecting rods & 4 "tandem trailer axel equalizer yoke" rocker arms. To quote The Bard: "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when practice to deceive" or my dad's sage advice "Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should."

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#25
In reply to #22

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 10:45 AM

All I know is,... if you trying things that are new,... even the most simplest perceived designs, become over whelming when attempting to put it in practice.

To a point that if one actually knew what one would go through prior to bringing a concept to reality with a new design... one would never start it in the first place.

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#30
In reply to #25

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 1:00 PM

True, but in any complex problem it is always best to consider Oxam's Razor first. In this case, deriving power from a reciprocating engine, the 2 x 4 x 8 solution is way too warped to be a practical and durable solution.

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#27
In reply to #22

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 10:59 AM

The Bard did pen many wonderful things. The quote you attributed to the Bard was not among those, however.

".. Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive ..." was penned by Walter Scott roughly two centuries after the Bard of Avon was actively penning.

Being a relatively straight forward mistake it would appear there either was no intent to deceive....or that this is not your first rodeo.

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#3

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/08/2018 7:26 PM

At first, I thought it might be a simpler design than a conventional V8, but you actually have more bearings. There are connecting rods for each cylinder to the rocking arms in addition to the main connecting rod to the crankshaft. Maybe the amount of mass vibrating back and forth could be less.

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/unique-v8-needs-only-one-crank-throw-and-two-rods-does-it-work/

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#43
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/23/2018 11:51 AM

Piss off the rockers, make it 4 con rods. Pistons on same con rod 180˚ apart.

I think.

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#4

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/08/2018 9:13 PM

I don't see what the advantage is.....to make a radical retool you need a compelling cost saving reason....also where is the limiting factor in the piston travel ?...because it looks like an angle from the pivot point to the piston instead of a straight shot....it seems this would cause uneven wear...

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#5
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/08/2018 10:45 PM

I don’t see an advantage with,... but what I like about it and makes it interesting is the unconventional thinking.

i agree, I believe it’s called the overhang loads. The added stress and types of stress with more of a thrust load as wear occurs.

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#7
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/09/2018 12:27 AM

Yes it is interesting in the design concept area...it's always interesting to see a different approach...and maybe a tweaked design will follow that has more to offer, who knows..It's a tough area to compete in...especially now, it's all about the electric vehicle and the batteries...autonomous control systems...The ICE seems to be headed the same path as the steam engine did, a slow death....

I wonder if there were any steam/ gasoline engine hybrids....transition vehicles....

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#8
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/09/2018 9:45 AM

don't forget. Steam trains in the US were replaced by diesel/electric rapidly around 1950.. It's batteries that have never been practical for trains and other modes of transport.

of course there are exceptions

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#42
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/23/2018 11:48 AM

"It's batteries that have never been practical for trains and other modes of transport"

That was then, JE -

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#10
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/10/2018 10:31 PM

"...The ICE seems to be headed the same path as the steam engine did, a slow death...."

Steam engines didn't die. The places steam engines are commonly used shifted significantly, but steam engines, to this day, remain a pervasive and competitive technology in the fields in which these remain.

In fact, with the advent of full electic as well as plug in hybrid vehicle, steam engine involvement in roviding power to road going vehicles is seeing a resurgence.

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#9

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/10/2018 10:59 AM

It seems to me that the shortest distance/link between the combustion force and the crank output would be the most efficient/stable. Each link/joint adds more points of friction/breakage. Simplicity is usually best. And that goes for computer power supplies, too. You have 120VAC house current into a 12VDC output UPS, into a 12VDC battery, into a 120VAC inverter, into a 12/5VDC output computer power supply box. Why not just have a 12VDC computer run off of any generic 12v battery (pick your own size/type) with an automatic charger? It's more versatile and durable/reliable/repairable/maintainable/etc. And you don't have to use any batteries at all, if you don't want to. What's the down side?

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#39
In reply to #9

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 4:33 PM

Telcom's and newer server farms do this, avoid double conversion, and instant transfer UPS, they sell them as dc ups systems, I found a few years ago....

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#11

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/10/2018 10:32 PM

Yes, this is an interesting concept. I don't see any spatial or part count advantage to this approach. There might be a reduced vibration due to the fixed pivot bearing between cylinders. Those pivot points might improve bearing lubrication with oil gallery lines there from the block. I wonder about the balancing at that fixed pivot.

I wonder if the main bearings will see less or more vibration?

I'm intrigued that this is not a concept but a working design. Nice find Rixter.

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#12
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/10/2018 10:39 PM

It is going to have some perculiar characteristics as the outer pistons will dwell longer near tdc than the inner pistons any given rpm.

That will likely produce different conbustion characteristics for the outer vs inner pistons.

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#13
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/11/2018 10:20 AM

I would think the bearings will initially have less vibrations... but that may not less long as wear happens. When it does,... it’ll happen quickly.

also,... I wonder about if the timing ever got off, since there may be some mechanical losses with the different leverages what would happen?

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#14

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/11/2018 11:57 PM

Been away from this for a bit so there are newer machining methods, but I am curious how the rocker pins would be machined to the tolerances required.

Engine pretty well has to short stroke because of the rocker geometry. Short stroke engines compensate for that by higher RPM, but I think the rocker connections would severely limit that. Not sure what the advantage of this would be

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 1:56 AM

I also don't see an advantage, though this design shouldn't necessitate a short stroke.

If the engine is square (bore = stroke) then even without accounting for cylinder wall thickness between adjacent cylinders AND only allowing the rocker to be long enough such that the pivots are directly aligned under the center of the piston at mid stroke, the rocker would not need to deviate from the even midstroke position by more than 30° on either side.

Add in some cylinder wall thickness and balance the position of the connecting rod to spend equal time on eithet side of directly aligned under piston and long stroke (undersquare) configurations could be had without varying more than +-30° from the midpoint.

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#16

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 5:23 AM

An interesting idea. Notice that the design emulates the piston movement of a flat plane V-8, but the crank has one connecting rod journal. The two connecting rods will be pushing and pulling the crank - when the outside pistons fire, the connecting rod will be pulling up on an upswing.

Ducati has been working on this design, so it'll be a small displacement, hi revving motor. Remember that a flat plane V-8 is also a high revving motor too.

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#17

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 7:07 AM

I thought the whole point of an 8-cylinder engine was to have 8 different firing points in a cycle. Can any one explain to me how this current arrangement differs from a 4 cylinder engine in respect of the timing?

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#24
In reply to #17

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 10:44 AM

"... Can any one explain to me how this current arrangement differs from a 4 cylinder engine in respect of the timing? ..."

The cylinder banks are offset at what looks to be 90º. This would allow timing with no two cylinders at the same point in the 4 stroke cycle.

One a 4 cylinder, two pistons move together 180º out of phase with the other two piston...valve actuation keeps the two moving together at different point of the four stroke cycle. Offsetting an additional bank by 90º means any time one bank is at tdc and bdc, the other bank will be midstroke.

Thr animation shows this.

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#32
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 11:33 AM

Thank you - I see that when one of the middle cylinders is on the firing stroke the other is on the exhaust stroke. Does this then mean that the yoke-shaped connecting rod is subjected to a lateral as well as a downward force?

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#33
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 11:57 AM

It seems to me, that the pair on the rockers would be, one on power-stroke, the other on the compression stroke, and therefore they'd be on the intake/exhaust stroke (unloaded) together, to help balance the loads on the rocker. Then the other pair would be similar, except 360º off-set so that there's always one of the pistons on the power stroke to maintain a smoother rotation. But no matter what, both inner pistons must be moving up/down together, limiting the timing to either power/intake, or power/power (not firing/exhaust, or intake/compression). But even that way, it does seem like there'd be a lateral force in there somewhere.

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#36
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 4:00 PM

There will be lateral forces due to the conversion of linear motion to rotation.

You can't have countermoving pistons only with the relationship of power stroke/ compression stroke. Any power/compression combination is immediately followed by exhaust/ power stroke. Then intake/exhaust. Then compression/intake.

...leading finallly back to power/compression.

The other order isn't actually different just starting at a different point in the described order.

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#40
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 8:50 PM

Oh, yeah. Hadn't thought about that. This isn't my area of expertise. I just had more of a question than a statement. Thanks.

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#37
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 4:29 PM

You're thinking about a cross plane V-8 motor, which has each piston hitting TDC at a different time.

This motor is similar to a flat plane V-8 motor. It's the old, old V8 motor design and also the one Ferrari uses. Ford just started using a flat plane V-8 on their new Shelby Mustang. The flat plane motor has two pistons hitting TDC at the same time, but they're on two different strokes. It's similar to putting two inline 4's in a V, hence two pistons hitting TDC at the same time.

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#18

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 8:37 AM

How about rods with no bearings at all ? And no crankshaft.

So, I have often wondered no one seems to build straight shot IC cylinders directly driving hydraulic cylinders with strong steel spring accumulators opposite the IC cylinder. I know there are thermal issues but they do not seem on casual considerations to be severe. Then you put hydraulic motors in each wheel hub. I would also consider a central flywheel accumulator for heavy stop-start use. Does anyone know if this has been done with modern electronic controller management of on-demand cylinder firing and four wheel calculated steering with passive axle angle.

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#19
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 8:52 AM

So, I have often wondered no one seems to build straight shot IC cylinders directly driving hydraulic cylinders with strong steel spring accumulators opposite the IC cylinder.

You mean similar to a swash plate?... may have its advantages such as being able to adjust for displacement,... but the stress is another issue.

either way,... sound complicated.... a Rotax rotary motor seems simpler.

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#21
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 10:16 AM

Didn't we have somebody earlier on CR4 with a "novel" engine design that reminded people of a swash plate engine? I don't believe it was Duke Engines.

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#23
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 10:42 AM

I normally miss things about ICE posts, where I only pick it up on 'Who's Online',

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#28
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 11:01 AM

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#31
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 4:33 PM

Swash Plates Have Bearings and Crankshafts

The piston assembly I have in mind has no moving parts except for the spring mounted piston. Something like this drawing( I am trying out inkscape and I am clearly not proficient). There might be any number of cylinders. Somewhere some fancy hydraulic controls have a seriously challenging job and I have not drawn my flywheel accumulator. The piston oscillates against the spring and the working fluids. The combustion chamber piston, the rod, and the hydraulic cylinder piston are all one casting or at least need no swivels or bearings. The rod travels only in line with its axis and does not convert linear motion to rotary motion. The flywheel is probably driven by a vane hydraulic motor. There are un-shown circulation ports for cooling fluid(might be air with oil mist) and un-shown combustion chamber(intake and exhaust) valves which would need intelligent actuation from the engine control computer. Nothing is to scale except that the combustion chamber piston probably really is larger than the hydraulic cylinder piston.

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#34
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 12:56 PM

What is the mass of the fluid? If you are going to replace reciprocating metal ( the connecting rods) with reciprocating fluid where is the energy saving? What is the energy loss to the viscosity of the fluid? What is a "flywheel accumulator" and does it have any reciprocating parts? You haven't solved the friction losses of the rings either, hard to make a high pressure seal with low friction.

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#38
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 4:31 PM

Solararts,

Q-"What is the mass of the fluid?" A: Use off-the-shelf hydraulic fluid.

Q-"If you are going to replace reciprocating metal ( the connecting rods) with reciprocating fluid where is the energy saving?" A: The fluid will be less efficient at transferring power than mechanical linkages, but... There are several advantages to offset this sacrifice. The engine control computer can, on the fly, choose which and how many cylinders to run. The cylinders do not have to have identical characteristics of displacement, stroke, ... There is no explicit transmission. A flywheel can perform dynamic braking energy storage. There is no explicit differential and the wheel hub mounted hydraulic motors can be driven or freewheeling on the fly. There is no steering rack and pinion(or whatever). Steering is achieved by controlled wheel powering and is all wheel. The axle angles to the car are passive except for hub powering, so wheel scrub in turns is minimized. The pistons, flywheel, and hub motors are all placed very low in the vehicle for a phenomenally low center of gravity.

Q-"What is the energy loss to the viscosity of the fluid?" A: Painful, but worth it for the on-demand flexibilities gained .

Q-"What is the "flywheel accumulator" and does it have any reciprocating parts?" A:A stop/start energy storage mechanism using dynamic braking energy to re-accelerate. Your engine control computer may choose to only operate it during braking and short period accelerating. It can have reciprocating parts since those do not move at all unless in a brake/accelerate cycle. There is a lot of design latitude with the flywheel accumulator: it may even be all electric(maybe brushless DC) to win on the ½mv2 equation and powered by wheel hub motor/generators. The electric motors in perhaps two of the wheel hubs could substitute for the hydraulic motors in those hubs to achieve very smooth and fast control and reduce weight and hydraulic plumbing. I guess then the car is then an IChydraulic/electric hybrid with minimal battery weight. Trains have long been diesel electric hybrids for similar (but easier to achieve) reasons related to their inherent higher mass rolling energy storage.

Q-"You haven't solved the friction losses of the rings either, hard to make a high pressure seal with low friction." A: I never claimed to have magic rings. You can, however, benefit by not moving most of them while cruising with low power demands since you might transition down to a one (maybe the largest or the smallest one) cylinder operation and use your car mass for infrequent stroke energy storage possibly de-jerk buffered with your flywheel.

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#41
In reply to #38

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/14/2018 1:16 PM

Single Direction of Flow Hydraulics Operation Design Choice for IChyd/Elect

I failed to mention that reverse is an essential but very low duty cycle use item on traditional cars, yet it complicates and interferes with the main drive train operation to a substantial degree(especially, in the transmission since it takes up space which could be another forward gear). With the electric hub motors and an electric flywheel one has the opportunity to design some vehicles with no hydraulic hub motor power reverse capability. Use the existing electric stuff to achieve a low speed only, high torque, precise reverse. You would need to add an auxiliary hydraulic(probably non-hub) motor driven generator to provide power to spin up your all electric flywheel but this mechanism could be(automatically) totally shut down (bypassed) except when anticipating using reverse. You can then optimize your power train hydraulics flow to operate with check valve plumbing to flow substantially in only one direction. Note that spinning up your flywheel with dynamic braking before you do a short backup might not require exercising the auxiliary stuff at all. Starting up in reverse would require the auxiliary stuff. The auxiliary feature could also provide a built-in, moderate power, electrical supply so that your car engine could be used for tool powering, mobile refrigeration, home emergency power(with appropriate safety) or other electrical power requirements you may have while not backing up.

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#20

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 10:05 AM

and I thought quartering steam engine drivers was a nightmare!

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#26
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Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 10:47 AM

Quartering anyone would be a nightmare. Drawing them has to be the more enjoyable part of that task.

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#29

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/12/2018 11:55 AM

It looks like ten connecting rods to me, there is one hiding inside the piston on each of the rockers that serve the same purpose as a standard connecting rod, converting an arc motion into a straight line. This design does nothing to change the basic weakness of a reciprocating piston engine, energy loss to reciprocating weight, high friction on pressure seals (basically dragging a set of highly tensioned rings back and forth, each with a slight gap that leaks) and the need for a massive cooling system to remove all of the energy losses in the form of heat.

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#35

Re: This is an Interesting Concept

03/13/2018 3:55 PM

Seems like it would impart an additional wobble, over time, due to too much linkage, leading to fatiguing lateral flexure, leading to additional cylinder wall friction, leading to increased operating temperature, leading to premature seizing-up of at least one, if not both, of the end pistions...

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