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Scam or Real Thing....?

07/05/2018 4:34 PM

Ok I had 2 of my wheels powder coated, and took them into a service center to have the tires switched and the wheels installed, they said they can't touch the tires because they're over 5 years old and might explode at high speed....and their liability insurance forbids it...Now the tires have probably less than 2k miles on them, and the tread looks like new...some cracking ....They seem like a reputable business, and even said other tire service facilities might do it, but not them...So the question is, do tires become unsafe at 5+ years ?? ...or is this insurance overprotecting..?

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#1

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 4:51 PM

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#2

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 5:19 PM

I have a set of Michelin’s on my ‘86 Porshe 911 thats 15 years old... that has less than 5,000 miles on them.

I never heard about the 5 year expiration date...

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 5:35 PM

He said Michelin's were the worst.....and after a little research, it seems this is indeed a thing....tires have a 6 year expiration date....

..."Imagine cruising down the road on a beautiful spring afternoon or returning home after a long day at work when suddenly the back right tire of your vehicle explodes. Luckily, you maintain control and safely maneuver to the side of the road. The tires are new, purchased a few months ago from a local tire shop. How could this happen to new tires?

The fact is that all tires have an expiration date. Surprisingly, many consumers and sellers of tires do not know about tire expiration dates. An uninformed consumer thinks he or she purchased brand new tires when in reality those tires may have been sitting on the shelf for years. Even though the tires were never used on a vehicle, they are still several years old. Every tire has a birth date—the day it was manufactured—and an expiration date that is six years from that manufacture date. Most automobile manufacturers warn drivers to replace vehicle tires after six years. To wait any longer than that is a gamble with tire integrity and is risky for drivers.

So what can you, as a driver, do to protect yourself? When buying new tires, ask for the newest tires available, and look at the tire’s manufacture date. The manufacture date is a Department of Transportation (DOT) code of 10 or 11 characters embossed on the inside of the tire (see Figure 1). For new tires, the code is always 11 characters. However, tires manufactured before the year 2000 have a 10-character code. Expiration dates for tires manufactured before 2000 were based on a 10-year scale because the expected life-span of a tire was 10 years. Current guidance suggests that tires should be expected to last a maximum of only six years."...

Figure 1. A tire manufactured-date code, shown in the yellow box, may appear on the outside of some tires. The 11-character DOT code, shown in the red box, appears on the inside of tires.

Recently, some tire manufacturers have begun to stamp partial codes on the outside of tires (facing away from the vehicle) so that checking the date does not necessitate removing the wheel. This partial code, boxed in yellow in Figure 1, is the most important piece of information about a tire. These last four digits of the DOT code represent the manufacture date of the tire. The last two digits refer to the year the tire was produced, and the first two digits identify the week number within that year. The tire shown in Figure 1 was manufactured on the 36th week of the year 2001. That tire was on a trailer that had been sitting in a field unused for 10 years, and it showed signs of dry-rot cracking. It is unclear whether trailer tires should be replaced every six years since they do not receive the same daily punishment as automobile tires. However, automobile tires should be replaced every six years.

The majority of people who take the gamble of keeping outdated tires do so to save money. Driving on outdated tires is risky not only for the driver of the car having those tires but also for other drivers. Take the initiative and change vehicle tires every six years, or sooner, to diffuse a potentially dangerous situation."...

http://articles.extension.org/pages/73045/tire-safety:-expiration-dates

https://www.google.com/search?q=tires+exploding+5+years+old&oq=tires+exploding+5+years+old&aqs=chrome..69i57.13182j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 6:37 PM

Great information.

the unfortunate part, all the classic and collectible cars now have bad tires.

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#20
In reply to #4

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 9:16 AM

For a vehicle being restored, that's why they suggest you buy new tires at the END of the restoration, not the beginning. Use junk tires, or even plywood disks, for rolling around the shop.

But what about truck tires? Probably all of my tires, even the modern cars, are much too old!

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#23
In reply to #20

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 9:34 AM

For my car, at one time it was my main form of transportation.

When I transitioned? out and was using it less, I just happened to put new tires on it.

On you other point, agriculture trucks where a lot of grain trucks are seasonal.

I know this will be cracking down,... some of the very large farms grain trucks are poorly maintained.

There's large farms in our area that's been making the news, their large trucks were having accidents due to poor maintenance. (but this was mostly brakes , lights and the like)

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 7:12 PM

So,.. it is a real thing.

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#6
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 7:32 PM

Real and apparently not widely known....I've never heard of this either....I guess tire people know this, but keep the info close so as not to endanger their stock....Imagine trying to sell a new old tire....I guess that's why they have tire sales every now and then, to keep the stock fresh....So I guess we need to check the date on any tires we buy...and certainly if you don't drive the car enough to wear out the tread in 6 years, you want freshly manufactured rubber....If the tire is 3 years old when you buy it, it's only worth half as much....a word to the wise eh?

Sure enough, 16th week of 2013...has entered the 6th year of service...we are in the 33rd week of 2018...

I just checked the new tires I bought just a few months ago...

30th week 2017....1 year old already! Bummer....

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 7:51 PM

So where can you buy the freshest tires? Anybody?

https://tires.tirerack.com/tires/Old%20Tires

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#8
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 8:12 PM

OK I guess 1 year old is not that bad in the grand scheme of things....

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2980890/Re:_How_Old_is_Too_Old_When_Bu

ps, I bought my new tires from American Muscle for about $150 each delivered... the place where I had them installed wanted $250 per tire! The local place just quoted $170 installed each...The wheels were $90 each to powder coat...

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#10
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 10:09 PM

Well the consensus is that tires are good for 10 years, but changing rims is not a good idea after 5 years, and tires aren't warranteed past 6 years...this is excluding any excessive dry rot or other damage and tread wear depth being sufficient....I don't think I've ever had tires on a car for 10 years now that I think about it...

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#14
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 4:14 AM

"I don't think I've ever had tires on a car for 10 years now that I think about it..."

What about the spare tyre, they can sit in the back of the car for years.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 7:32 AM

On a normally driving car, no.

For myself, I put on 12,000-15,000/year. And I just got a new (after reading this its new to me, now I have to look and see when it was made) set put on last year. Usually buy the better, longer mileage tires 100,000. but this last time, I bought the 70,000 mile tire. just because, it'll be hitting 200,000 miles, and I plan on looking for another car at 225,000.

So as long as the manufacturing date is about a year from when I buy them, It should be a nonissue.

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#24
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 9:36 AM

Seems like planned obsolescence to me. Either replace them every 3-6 years due to wear or due to old age. One way or the other, the tire manufacturers are selling you tires.

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#18
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 8:35 AM

Bicycle helmets have recommended expiration dates of two years. I put a cyclocross bike down on a dirt road descent on the 4th of July and wacked my head on some rocks while wearing a well maintained, seldom worn 14 year old helmet.(only red/white/blue helmet I own) No head injury. (lots of other bruises and cuts elsewhere - my right leg has road rash from hip to ankle - my ribs are cracked where they hit the rocks) These expiration dates are guidelines set up assuming the object has endured the worst conditions, not absolute fail by dates.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 9:26 AM

That why the garage wouldn't remove a tire from a rim after the expiration date is making sense now.

The car I have, the first set of tires, I had a nail in it. I came across it by accident on a Saturday, I was in a parking lot, and the nail head shined from the sun, my mechanic was just down the road, I called him, and he fix it. I had to bring it in twice, because the tire did not seal on the rim... it probably was way past it expiration date.

That's true also,... a lot of items that have expiration dates are mandated. I recall, a neighbor of ours that owned a grocery store, the government mandated that dry good products such as flour not necessary have a have an expiration date on it but a 'used by' or 'sell by' date

Flour Expiration Date. But remember that flour, like a lot of other baking products, usually has a best before date and not a use by date or expiration date. Because of this distinction, you may safely use it for your baking needs after the best before date has lapsed.

I came across a 50lb bag of granulated garlic that had a packaged date of 2012 on it.

.

Flour?

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#36
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 1:43 PM

I once had a bag of flour that started hatching eggs and little slow moving bugs started crawling out...took me a while to locate the source, they moved so slow I knew they must be local...

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#37
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 1:50 PM

We store our flour in the freezer to control infestations...

Designed a 100 pie a minute pizza oven for a company..., and at their flour silos there was a war going between sanitation and The Beetles. And not these kind of beetles either...

9 Disgusting Things That the FDA Allows in Your Food - Live Science

Here's a story I experienced a while back that I shared here.

And now, I digress no farther... Bon Appétit

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#19
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 8:59 AM

The extension.org site looks really useful -- I know that every state has an Agricultural Extension Service but didn't know that they all sort of glom together to produce this site. Tire stuff is good to know too.

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#22
In reply to #19

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 9:30 AM

I know that every state has an Agricultural Extension Service but didn't know that they all sort of glom together to produce this site.

That's is a .org site, normally not affiliated with a government site... if it was a state of federal it would be a .gov site.

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#9

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 8:30 PM

I've driven for 55 years and never experienced a blowout. Maybe I'm lucky. I suppose if you drive a normal amount and live in a state where they inspect cars annually checking the tread depth, you may end up having to replace the tires due to tread wear before they dry rot.

Here is some good information:

https://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle-Shoppers/Tires-Rating/Tire-Aging

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#11
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 10:13 PM

Wow I check all the boxes here....

..."NHTSA research suggests that tires age faster in warmer climates. Exposure to high ambient temperatures can accelerate the tire aging process, which could contribute to tire failures, including tread separations. Environmental conditions like exposure to sunlight and coastal climates, as well as poor storage and infrequent use can hasten the aging process."...

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#29
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 11:50 AM

I'm wondering if inflating with Nitrogen helps. My latest Miata came with N2 inflated tires.

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#31
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 12:11 PM

Passenger cars can also benefit from the more stable pressures. But there's more: Humidity (water) is a Bad Thing to have inside a tire. Water, present as a vapor or even as a liquid in a tire, causes more of a pressure change with temperature swings than dry air does. It also promotes corrosion of the steel or aluminum rim.

Nitrogen vs Air In Tires - Why Nitrogen in Tires - Popular Mechanics

Draw your own conclusions.

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#33
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 12:53 PM

I think keeping the tires at the recommended pressure is the best for extending the life of the tires.

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#38
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 3:09 PM

Tire pressure is one of those poorly understood things.

Ever heard of "changing the air" in your tires?

How about the effects of tire pressure on lateral acceleration, ride comfort, mileage, and of course life of the tire.

Then there is the balancing. did you know inflation can effect the balance?

And don't even get me started on body construction or the tread compounds.

When I got into racing it was a real eye opener. Round Rubber and Rolls is not all there is to tires. LoL

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#41
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 3:41 PM

Ok,... lets see

Tire pressure is one of those poorly understood things.

Ever heard of "changing the air" in your tires? with the exception of replaceing air with nitrogen, otherwise,... nope.

How about the effects of tire pressure on lateral acceleration, ride comfort, mileage, and of course life of the tire. Big noticeable effects... if you know what your hearing, feeling or looking for.

Then there is the balancing. did you know inflation can effect the balance? yes, that's whay I like to keep it and the recommended pressure.

And don't even get me started on body construction or the tread compounds. please do....

When I got into racing it was a real eye opener. Round Rubber and Rolls is not all there is to tires. My friends raced stock on dirt tracks in the area (4-5 county tracks)... its a science... anyways, when they were explaining it to me, they lost me at 'hello'

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#12

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/05/2018 10:17 PM

All tires sold in the USA are required to have a date code molded into the tire.

Yes, Michelins are prone to cracking in the sidewall and are sometimes replaced under warranty by reputable dealers. My friend had two replaced. I quit buying them because in Arizona the sun kills tires anyway.

I'd replace any tires over the warranty age, if for no other reason than to protect yourself in the event of tire failure and an accident.

I don't wait for tires to get down to the wear bars, either even in Arizona.

That's just my opinion.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 12:18 AM

Back in the mid-'60s in S. California the (ground level) ozone was so bad that sidewalls would be checked after one summer and you replaced your wiper blades no earlier than November. Up here in the Maritime Pac NW, I haven't seen any checking before the tread becomes worn.

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#16
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 7:37 AM

Too bad about the Michelins, they are good running tires, better then the (2) setts of Pirelli's I had on prior.

I look at the tires last night, there is cracking on the tread, but not on the side wall.

I think probable because I stored and park it out of the sun, but that doesn't stop the cracking due to oxidation.

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#30
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 12:05 PM

I liked the tires, they wore well. But I decided a less expensive tire was fine, since I drove 12 mi. a day, under 50 MPH. Now that I'm retired, I probably drive about 20 miles a week. I bought them in '15 and the dealer tells me the date code is on the inside of the tire.

I told him I'd be in early next week to have them rotated and get the date code.

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#32
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 12:37 PM

The inside of the tire? sneaky bastids.....That would seem a deliberate intent to hide this information...We need a law that this information is disclosed on the sale of the tire...written on the receipt and signed approval from the buyer that this information was disclosed at the time of the sale...The driver is responsible for the proper maintenance of the vehicle they are driving, without this information they are open to liability from an unknown source....Can you imagine the bad blood created between customer and tire service company when after taking the wheel off the car and separating the tire must then say to the customer we're sorry we can't put these tires back on the vehicle, they're past expiration date...The customer is likely to interpret this as a hold up, forcing them to purchase new tires with sketchy information....then the service company would say well they would have been good for several more years if we hadn't taken them off the rims, but we had to, to get the manufacture date...too bad....this is the kind of thing that drives people crazy, and we get these violent incidents of rage....not good practice

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#34
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 1:04 PM

From one of your citations:"that's because the DOT's current regulations require the entire number to be branded on only one sidewall, while the opposite sidewall is branded with just the first few digits. To see the entire DOT number, just look on the other sidewall.." Easy enough to do with new, unmounted tires.

That's why I'm having the tires rotated.

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#35
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 1:34 PM

Oh I thought you meant inside the tire....haha Still I stand by my statement....

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#54
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/11/2018 7:14 PM

Mfg. Date 5-2014

Install date 5-2015

Present date 7-2018

There're good for the next 9 months.

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#17

Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 8:05 AM

Tires can become unsafe. If you look closely at your second picture, which shows the sidewalls. You see the cracking all around the edge. That is the unsafe part. The sidewalls of a tire are the weakest. The cracking that you show in your picture is what they call dry rot. This makes the sidewalls really weak and easy to blow. If they do blow, it is instant and your tire goes immediately flat. This can be very dangerous at high speed. A good pothole at 60 mph could take that out and you would completely loose control of your vehicle. I would say they are doing you a favor. You probably can find a place that will install them, but they really shouldn't.

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#26
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Re: Scam or real thing....?

07/06/2018 10:11 AM

Well to tell you the truth I bought 2 new wheels to put on the car while I had the old ones powder coated...and I anticipated putting new tires on at that time, but after changing the front tires on the new wheels I was looking at the older tires and they looked really good, the side walls are very thick, so I thought I would keep them for spares and not bother to change the rear ones as it then seemed frivolous....I still think the tires would be ok for another five years, but I prefer to err on the side of safety, and as others have said, I understand about liability...so no doubt these tires will end up on somebody's car, just not mine....

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#25

Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/06/2018 9:51 AM

I tried to have a tire shop rotate in my spare (on my truck) that had never been driven on. They refused because the tire was 20 years old. They said it was against the law to do it. They suggested that I replace the spare too.

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#27

Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/06/2018 10:12 AM

You don't want to go the way of Studebaker or Packard do you? You get to a certain point of quality where folks only by one and it lasts forever. Not a great business model. I think we can all attest to the difference in the number of cars we see on the road with flats now days compared to the 60's and 70's

I hadn't heard it became a law, but it was well know to us who raced cars in the SCCA. Tire inspection was part of your prerace. Those cracks on the side wall are always a sign to replace the tire. That is the area where the bead is bonded to the carcass. Not usually a blowout risk, but the tire rubber can separate from the body or 'roll' off the rim in a hard corner.

Now that doesn't mean you won't see them all over the place. I have personally driven tires until the belts are showing and did not have a blow out. Basically, a catastrophic tire failure resulting in a fatality is a rare occurrence and with most cars being well balanced now days many don't ever touch rim to asphalt even with a full out shredder blow off that ruins sheet metal.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/06/2018 10:30 AM

Its interesting for a number of reason.

The expiration of tires is not widely known. This post enlighten a lot of us.

One buys a good product, they do tend to return to buy that same product. I myself, when it came to durable goods, after research always felt to buy the best based on the research I did. Early in my career, if I couldn't afford it, I waited until I could... And after a good experience, I would buy it again,...

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#39

Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/06/2018 3:11 PM

While fixing a link in CR4 I found this old (2007) but sort of relevant thread titled Do Car Tires Have an Inside and Outside? I see a couple of familiar user names in the chat.

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#42
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/06/2018 3:42 PM

I've notice you moderators were on the older posts lately... doing some clean-up maybe?

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#40

Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/06/2018 3:35 PM

New tires installed...date code 3917 9.5 mos old....not bad I guess....now off to be powder coated to complete the set...

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#43

Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/06/2018 11:01 PM

Good question solar eagle.

Can I break down your question and if I miss something, please correct me.

You say that the wheels were powder coated, how or why would you powder coat the wheels with the tires mounted on the rims ? It would seem that a shop would do the jobs sans tires. Maybe the technician noticed a difference and in taking care of his company decided to err on the side of caution.

Tires, I understand, can explode both at low and high speed, temperature, load weight and age come to mind.

As for the cracking, it appears that the engineering behind the structure of the tire can work many ways, I've noticed two.

1. Tires, on vehicles with low miles, approximately 5 years old, develop cracks on side wall.

2. Tires, on vehicles with high miles, develop cracks on the leading edge of the blocks.

Is the tire unsafe at 5 years ? Are tires a time engineered system. Does the technology exist for the longer lasting tire. Both unknowns.

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#44
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/07/2018 12:01 AM

You don't seem to grasp the details...check the date codes on your tires and report back...that is if you have a car...

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#45
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/07/2018 1:11 AM

Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark.

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#46
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/07/2018 1:35 AM

Two cars. General 2017, Continental 2018. Your second image shows a very corroded rim ?

If it doesn't hurt, your not trying hard enough.

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#47
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/07/2018 2:03 AM

Yes the rims got corroded from the beach salt....so I had them powder coated....

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#48

Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/08/2018 2:03 PM

Just to throw another thought into this discussion, a lot of commercial vehicles use remoulded tyres. Does moulding a new tread on an old carcass extend the 'use by' date?

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#49
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/08/2018 3:07 PM

There are two points of view.

Retreading extends the life cycle of a tire - Commercial Carrier Journal

Commercial truckers like them, because of the cost savings. But, there is a down side:

Why You Should Avoid Retreads - Youi

While retreads may be suitable for the transport industry due to the cost savings, they should be avoided in passenger vehicles simply because of the doubts that still hang over them. The bottom line is, these are not new tyres and, like anything used, they have a greater potential to fail.

Someone who drives like I do, could use them safely, but I won't ever put one on any of my vehicles.

I'm not sure what insurance companies think about these, either.

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#50
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/08/2018 3:26 PM

One see more of those ‘road gators’ now more then ever before.

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#51
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/08/2018 4:03 PM

I saw the aftermath of one of those getting thrown up from the road by one car and then another car driving into it. No major damage, but panic braking by a dozen cars.

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#53
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Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/09/2018 1:16 AM

I can understand that.

A long time ago... a neighbor of ours going south bound, and a semi going north bound lane, on a 2 lane highway (north and south) the tread let loose right when they passed.

the insurance offered her Actual Cash Value and considered it totaled, the car was like 3 years old.

last Friday afternoon driving home from work, there was retread for about a 2 mile stretch on I43. The bits and passes where strung out that it looked like from the same truck. But with the amount of rubber it had to be from multiple truck tread letting loose and was just a coincidence.

It seems like there is more of this today. I always look at the tread of the truck, if I’m going to pass it. More then once, I stayed behind because the tread was loosening. But it’ll be that one time that I don’t look.

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#52
In reply to #48

Re: Scam or Real Thing....?

07/08/2018 7:24 PM

I bought a vehicle with re-capped Michelins on it when I bought it. The sidewall gave out on one on a trip to Denver. This was a few years ago, and I think they don't sell them anymore around here.

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